Andira runehand and dark charm

By Galamoth, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

Does andira runehand get the pirce 2 against her allies when under the effects of dark charm? The card says, "adjacent enemies", the term enemy isnt really defined. Usually they use the terms target, figure, hero, and monster.

Actually, they use "enemy figures" and "ally figures" for many different effects (moving through other figures, Aura, Command, Grapple, Sweep, etc.), and the definition of "enemy" is pretty clear...except when Dark Charm is in effect. There are vague and possibly contradictory FAQ rulings on the subject of who counts as an enemy or ally for a hero under the effects of Dark Charm.

I'd probably allow it to apply. But it's a poorly-written ability in the first place, and this is a rather murky area of the rules, so if you're looking for definitive answers, I fear you're out of luck.

Antistone said:

Actually, they use "enemy figures" and "ally figures" for many different effects (moving through other figures, Aura, Command, Grapple, Sweep, etc.), and the definition of "enemy" is pretty clear...except when Dark Charm is in effect. There are vague and possibly contradictory FAQ rulings on the subject of who counts as an enemy or ally for a hero under the effects of Dark Charm.

I'd probably allow it to apply. But it's a poorly-written ability in the first place, and this is a rather murky area of the rules, so if you're looking for definitive answers, I fear you're out of luck.

And you have to roll a surge to overcome Antistone's fear gran_risa.gif

I've always considered the heroes to be "enemies" when making a Dark Charm attack. Even the acting hero if I happen to be making the hero attack themself. I do NOT, however, consider monsters to be allied witht he attacking hero during this time. I don't believe that's ever come up, but if it did that's how I'd play it.

But yes, I'd say Andira's Pierce applies to a Dark Charm attack against herself or another hero.

The FAQ is about as clear as can be expected for a FFG document. You no longer benefit from the other heroes' Command bonuses, but do benefit from those of allies. I take this to mean that Dark Charm reverses your enemy/ally status. While it's possible to read this as being a ruling that is only intended to address Command, it clarifies a whole slew of other issues if you take it as a general rule being written in specific terms.

James McMurray said:

The FAQ is about as clear as can be expected for a FFG document. You no longer benefit from the other heroes' Command bonuses, but do benefit from those of allies. I take this to mean that Dark Charm reverses your enemy/ally status. While it's possible to read this as being a ruling that is only intended to address Command, it clarifies a whole slew of other issues if you take it as a general rule being written in specific terms.

+1

There is another entry in the FAQ concerning Dark Charm and a hero with Sweep:

Q: Does Sweep affect friendly figures? When a figure has both Sweep and Reach, does it strike every creature in range or only those to which it has Line of Sight?
A: Sweep affects only enemy figures, never friendly figures (unless Dark Charm is played, of course!). <snip>

This ruling basically states that for a Dark Charmed hero, the other heroes are considered "enemy figures" during the Dark Charm attack.

Good catch edroz.

Here's some extra text to make my post long enough that the gods of forum scripting will deem it worthy to post =)

Steve-O said:

But yes, I'd say Andira's Pierce applies to a Dark Charm attack against herself or another hero.

Is nobody arguing that she isn´t actually adjacent when attacking herself? We had this situation last night and I let her get away without the Pierce (wouldn´t have mattered much anyway in the given situation).

Parathion said:

Steve-O said:

But yes, I'd say Andira's Pierce applies to a Dark Charm attack against herself or another hero.

Is nobody arguing that she isn´t actually adjacent when attacking herself? We had this situation last night and I let her get away without the Pierce (wouldn´t have mattered much anyway in the given situation).

Considering that Melee attacks may only be declared against adjacent spaces (DJitD pg11), if you rule that way then you would have to say that no melee hero can attack himself when Dark Charmed (Dark charmed attacks are, after all, subject to the usual attack rules).
While technically Andira is not adjacent to herself, this is one of those cases where it is clearly better to just look the other way...

Corbon said:

Considering that Melee attacks may only be declared against adjacent spaces (DJitD pg11), if you rule that way then you would have to say that no melee hero can attack himself when Dark Charmed (Dark charmed attacks are, after all, subject to the usual attack rules).

Right, and since Dark Charm explicitly says that the target hero may attack him/herself, I prefer to think of this as the card providing an exception where the hero's own space is considered adjacent, just for this attack. There are undoubtedly other interpretations but that's the one I go with. It just keeps things easy, which I think is important in a game with as many rules as this one =)

I'm of the opinion that they should've just declared that every space is adjacent to itself in the first place. It simplifies the wording on things like the exploding chest trap, we don't have this crap about whether melee attacks can self-target, it's fine if a hero wants to remain in the Spiked Pit space even if he rolls successfully, I don't see any reason that you should be protected from Aura when moving through the enemy's space, and it wasn't an issue for Grapple anyway because you can't be grappled while in the same space as another figure.

Steve-O said:

Corbon said:

Considering that Melee attacks may only be declared against adjacent spaces (DJitD pg11), if you rule that way then you would have to say that no melee hero can attack himself when Dark Charmed (Dark charmed attacks are, after all, subject to the usual attack rules).

Right, and since Dark Charm explicitly says that the target hero may attack him/herself, I prefer to think of this as the card providing an exception where the hero's own space is considered adjacent, just for this attack. There are undoubtedly other interpretations but that's the one I go with. It just keeps things easy, which I think is important in a game with as many rules as this one =)

Actually, Dark Charm, while explicitly allowing a hero to attack himself, still, also explicitly, requires the usual rules and requirements for attacks to be followed. Strictly speaking, a melee attack may only be made against an adjacent space, so a dark charmed melee hero attacking himself is not allowed by the Dark Charm card because he cannot do so while following the standard melee attack rules . Your interpretation is ignoring part of the Dark Charm card text.
None-the-less, it is fairly obviously the best interpretation and I haven't heard of anyone not using it. The point is, that Andira's Pierce has the same requirements as a melee attack, so to refuse her Pierce bonus because she is attacking herself is inconsistent if you are allowing melee heroes to attack themselves when Dark Charmed.