Hey guys, remember this?

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/203297-question-about-obstruction-probably-very-stupid/

This is probably dumb, but is this shot obstructed?

LOS does pass through the obstacle. but the obstacle is obstructed by the ship's base, so the line doesn't visibly pass through it. I have no clue why I assumed that this meant it was NOT obstructed, but now it seems I am entirely incorrect!

Seems annoying, especially if the asteroid were COMPLETELY under the base.

Shucks. Makes the game even more 2D.

Shucks. Makes the game even more 2D.

Probably to deal with the reality of not wanting to have to pick the ship up to check the obstacle.

Or, in 3D world, the Star Destroyer rammed the rock out of the way, so it's not obstructed anymore because it already took a rock to the face.

I fully support any decision to make the game more easily playable.

The interesting follow-up question is the following - if two squadrons are sitting on the obstacle and touching each other are they engaged or are they obstructed? This answer hints at "engaged" answer.

Shucks. Makes the game even more 2D.

Probably to deal with the reality of not wanting to have to pick the ship up to check the obstacle.

Or, in 3D world, the Star Destroyer rammed the rock out of the way, so it's not obstructed anymore because it already took a rock to the face.

That's not the way that works...

The interesting follow-up question is the following - if two squadrons are sitting on the obstacle and touching each other are they engaged or are they obstructed? This answer hints at "engaged" answer.

That is already answered by FAQ.

They are Obstructed - Even if the Bases are Touching

And obstruction = Not Engaged.

Is it really? I can't find it. There is a relevant portion in the rules "If line of sight is drawn over an obstacle, the attack is obstructed even if the bases of the attacker and defender are touching", however based on the ruling in this thread the line of sight between touching squadrons is not obstructed.

I fully support any decision to make the game more easily playable.

I completely agree with this. I was dreading the terrible arguments should it have been ruled the other way, whether the dot was over the obstacle or not, having to sort of guess things. This at least makes it cut and dry and easy to see if something is obstructed. Just in time for tourneys!

I fully support any decision to make the game more easily playable.

I completely agree with this. I was dreading the terrible arguments should it have been ruled the other way, whether the dot was over the obstacle or not, having to sort of guess things. This at least makes it cut and dry and easy to see if something is obstructed. Just in time for tourneys!

Totally agree. And i hope that it'll be ruled that the squadrons can still hide in the asteroids, however the current set of rules doesn't seem to support it anymore.

Is it really? I can't find it. There is a relevant portion in the rules "If line of sight is drawn over an obstacle, the attack is obstructed even if the bases of the attacker and defender are touching", however based on the ruling in this thread the line of sight between touching squadrons is not obstructed.

But Line of Sight is not drawn over Squadrons like it is on ships...

It is specifically closest-point to closest-point, so this ruling does not effect and is irrelevant in a squadron-to-squadron fight.

Let this be a lesson: more complicated is not good.

It is specifically closest-point to closest-point, so this ruling does not effect and is irrelevant in a squadron-to-squadron fight.

And closest point to closest point doesn't go over the obstacle that is not obstructed by the squadron base. Let me be clear, I do want these squadrons to be unobstructed (I believe that it does bring more variety to the game), however the latest ruling brings this to a gray area and that's why I'm pointing this out.

It is specifically closest-point to closest-point, so this ruling does not effect and is irrelevant in a squadron-to-squadron fight.

And closest point to closest point doesn't go over the obstacle that is not obstructed by the squadron base. Let me be clear, I do want these squadrons to be unobstructed (I believe that it does bring more variety to the game), however the latest ruling brings this to a gray area and that's why I'm pointing this out.

But I don't see how it is... I mean, we're dealing with circles here... Becuase we're talking about Squadron to Squadron... It should be visible if you are over the Asteroid. Even if your two closest points are touching... Because they're circles . You're not measuring from a point on the base, you're measuring from the tip of the base...

It is specifically closest-point to closest-point, so this ruling does not effect and is irrelevant in a squadron-to-squadron fight.

And closest point to closest point doesn't go over the obstacle that is not obstructed by the squadron base. Let me be clear, I do want these squadrons to be unobstructed (I believe that it does bring more variety to the game), however the latest ruling brings this to a gray area and that's why I'm pointing this out.

But I don't see how it is... I mean, we're dealing with circles here... Becuase we're talking about Squadron to Squadron... It should be visible if you are over the Asteroid. Even if your two closest points are touching... Because they're circles . You're not measuring from a point on the base, you're measuring from the tip of the base...

You think we are going to fall for your... circular... logic, Dras?

...

...

I'll go now.

It is specifically closest-point to closest-point, so this ruling does not effect and is irrelevant in a squadron-to-squadron fight.

And closest point to closest point doesn't go over the obstacle that is not obstructed by the squadron base. Let me be clear, I do want these squadrons to be unobstructed (I believe that it does bring more variety to the game), however the latest ruling brings this to a gray area and that's why I'm pointing this out.

But I don't see how it is... I mean, we're dealing with circles here... Becuase we're talking about Squadron to Squadron... It should be visible if you are over the Asteroid. Even if your two closest points are touching... Because they're circles . You're not measuring from a point on the base, you're measuring from the tip of the base...

You think we are going to fall for your... circular... logic, Dras?

...

...

I'll go now.

RRG 8 Obstructed:

If line of sight is drawn over an obstacle, the attack is

obstructed even if the bases of the attacker and defender

are touching.

No ambiguity at all.

Yeah, this ruling pretty clearly doesn't change squadron engagement over obstacles at all - if it did we should expect it to be addressed.

Thats really confusing now.

Cuz we could technically say that the spirit of the miniatures are touching, so there should literally not be any space at all above the atomic level by logic of a perfect circle. I guess someone could say that the LOS in squadron case is drawn on the ground, but wow. yeah.

It's confusing more on a philosophical level than a practical one, really. The practical application is clearly "if the spot where they touch each other is on an obstacle, it's obstructed." How that follows out of the rules as defined by this clarification is a little ambiguous, but how the game is to be played seems clear to me.

Does somebody have an example of how this leads to inconsistency in practical application? Cause while I feel like there's certainly the potential for it, I can't really think of an example.

So, in theory, if two squadrons are touching and both are on an obstacle: because they are touching, the shortest distance to form LoS goes from base 1 to base 2 without ever traveling over the obstacle, per the ruling Steve has above (something sitting on the obstacle blocks it).

So why are they obstructed, so long as they are actually touching? I do agree if they are not touching, they are obstructed.

because if two squadrons are actually touching their engines would blowing up. It makes it simpler not to worry about it, theyre fighting an asteroid field so going to obstructed whatever.

So, in theory, if two squadrons are touching and both are on an obstacle: because they are touching, the shortest distance to form LoS goes from base 1 to base 2 without ever traveling over the obstacle, per the ruling Steve has above (something sitting on the obstacle blocks it).

So why are they obstructed, so long as they are actually touching? I do agree if they are not touching, they are obstructed.

Because the rules explicitly say that base to base contact on an obstacle count as obstructed?

So, in theory, if two squadrons are touching and both are on an obstacle: because they are touching, the shortest distance to form LoS goes from base 1 to base 2 without ever traveling over the obstacle, per the ruling Steve has above (something sitting on the obstacle blocks it).

So why are they obstructed, so long as they are actually touching? I do agree if they are not touching, they are obstructed.

Because the rules explicitly say that base to base contact on an obstacle count as obstructed?

Do they?

Per the clarification Steve posted above:

I have reviewed the diagram in the thread you linked to. The portion of the obstacle that is overlapped by the attacker is not visible. The attacking hull zone’s traced line of sight does not pass over a visible portion of the overlapped obstacle or over another obstacle or ship. Therefore, the attack in question is not obstructed .

Therefore, if two squadrons are touching, per the previous statement:

RRG 8 Obstructed:

If line of sight is drawn over an obstacle, the attack is obstructed even if the bases of the attacker and defender are touching.

However, in this case (that being two squadrons base to base on an obstacle), line of sight does not pass over a visible portion of an obstacle, so is it actually drawn over an obstacle? Or is line of sight just drawn from the edge of the base to the edge of the base and no visible obstacle ever interacts, therefore unless they mean "even obstacles under the base which are not visible" (which seems to have been explicitly disavowed in Steve's clarification), they would not be obstructed?

Does that make sense?

So, in theory, if two squadrons are touching and both are on an obstacle: because they are touching, the shortest distance to form LoS goes from base 1 to base 2 without ever traveling over the obstacle, per the ruling Steve has above (something sitting on the obstacle blocks it).

So why are they obstructed, so long as they are actually touching? I do agree if they are not touching, they are obstructed.

Because the rules explicitly say that base to base contact on an obstacle count as obstructed?

Do they?

Per the clarification Steve posted above:

I have reviewed the diagram in the thread you linked to. The portion of the obstacle that is overlapped by the attacker is not visible. The attacking hull zone’s traced line of sight does not pass over a visible portion of the overlapped obstacle or over another obstacle or ship. Therefore, the attack in question is not obstructed .

Therefore, if two squadrons are touching, per the previous statement:

RRG 8 Obstructed:

If line of sight is drawn over an obstacle, the attack is obstructed even if the bases of the attacker and defender are touching.

However, in this case (that being two squadrons base to base on an obstacle), line of sight does not pass over a visible portion of an obstacle, so is it actually drawn over an obstacle? Or is line of sight just drawn from the edge of the base to the edge of the base and no visible obstacle ever interacts, therefore unless they mean "even obstacles under the base which are not visible" (which seems to have been explicitly disavowed in Steve's clarification), they would not be obstructed?

Does that make sense?

But squadrons are really the only case in which bases ever touch. When was the last time you saw a game in which ship bases actually touched? So the only case that the explicit, very specific rule could be referring to is squadrons.

Ask yourself, where do you draw line of site from, with a Squadron?

I'll give you a hint.

Its not the Cardboard, like it is on a Ship....

(Because a Ship draws Range and LOS from Hull Zones, and Hull Zones are defined as Cardboard), whereas Squadrons draw from edge of base .

Perhaps, if people are going to argue things on a diatomic level, its because an LOS line is at least 1mm wide, and a base that touches only touches on an infinitiely small amount that is actually *smaller* in width than 1mm.