derroehre, I think they were more referring to interaction about what's coming, issues with releases, etc., than actual rules issues.

I don't see that they have any obligation to communicate anything with us just because we buy their products. It's a simply transaction - we give them money, they give us toys, there was never a promise of some sort of regular communications. If you want frequent or regular communications that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but it's nothing to do with FFG.

I still reckon we'll get a big announcement at the Star Wars Celebration.

By the way, there seems to be an idea some people have that balancing Imperial Assault is easy. Not sure how anyone can believe that, when we've had examples already of poorly balanced groups.

'Obligation', obviously not, but I don't think that's the point.

The point is: how can they make the most money (their point of view), versus how can they make the best consumer experience (our POV). Of course, those interests are aligned, but not perfectly.

I don't see that they have any obligation to communicate anything with us just because we buy their products. It's a simply transaction - we give them money, they give us toys, there was never a promise of some sort of regular communications. If you want frequent or regular communications that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but it's nothing to do with FFG.

I still reckon we'll get a big announcement at the Star Wars Celebration.

By the way, there seems to be an idea some people have that balancing Imperial Assault is easy. Not sure how anyone can believe that, when we've had examples already of poorly balanced groups.

Under most circumstances when it is a straight I give you money-you give me toys dynamic I would agree.

But this ISN'T THAT. These games are designed to be competitive, they are designed to benefit from a community of players (and before you disagree, take a minute to read the forums, attend a few tourneys or even think for a minute why the company produces and sells at probably cost organized play kits and has an entire organized play section to their website).

So in summary, the company recognizes on a functional level that the health of their games relies on a healthy and engaged community, but on a practical level has no real idea how to manage said community.

They benefit and profit from the time, love and money the community puts into their games and if they were smart they would invest some time and love back into that community to make the pie bigger ESPECIALLY for a young game like Armada.

Under most circumstances when it is a straight I give you money-you give me toys dynamic I would agree.

But this ISN'T THAT. These games are designed to be competitive, they are designed to benefit from a community of players (and before you disagree, take a minute to read the forums, attend a few tourneys or even think for a minute why the company produces and sells at probably cost organized play kits and has an entire organized play section to their website).

So in summary, the company recognizes on a functional level that the health of their games relies on a healthy and engaged community, but on a practical level has no real idea how to manage said community.

They benefit and profit from the time, love and money the community puts into their games and if they were smart they would invest some time and love back into that community to make the pie bigger ESPECIALLY for a young game like Armada.

That's true because there's a tournament scene supported by FFG, ie the support they offer leads to the desire for that support, and if there wasn't FFG tournament support it would just be the money for toys transaction. But there hasn't been a lack of tournament support, has there? We've had tournament kits just like X-Wing and Imperial Assault haven't we? (genuine question, I thought we had but I could be wrong). We don't need news about future waves, or whatever extra communications people are asking for, to support the tournament scene and keep people playing the game. Well, I suppose I can't say that for certain can I, maybe some people are giving the game up for lack of news, I dunno. The thing about it being 3rd most popular game suggests they're not though.

Anybody raging about customer interaction...always remember that there is a tool on their homepage where you can send a message to the product designers, inventers and playtesters directly, and they WILL answer your questions about rules, even if (some times) they are written clearly in the rulebook or explained in the FAQ. Not only that, so far, even if I asked stupid questions that coul've been answered by myself if I'd have reread the corresponding parts of the rulebook carefully, the answers were very politely worded.

That is a first for me, no other company goes so far to ENCOURAGE you to contact the ACTUAL GAME DESIGNERS with rules questions.

Please, no rage and no flaming intended with this post, but people sometimes forget those things. Also, they WANT you to hunger for new products, don't forget that

Yeah take a minute to think about how stupid this is.

You are taking time from DESIGNERS and people integral to the development of the game to answer questions you can get answered by reading the rule book carefully and you consider this a GOOD THING??? I consider it insanity. You could take a fresh college grad in communications or English or just a general BA and make them experts on 2 or 3 games (if it was your full time job you could be an expert in 3 or 4 games in a couple of months) and make them a social media/forum/email communications manager.

Anyways, there are all sorts of solutions to the problem, but not until they recognize there is a problem...

Under most circumstances when it is a straight I give you money-you give me toys dynamic I would agree.

But this ISN'T THAT. These games are designed to be competitive, they are designed to benefit from a community of players (and before you disagree, take a minute to read the forums, attend a few tourneys or even think for a minute why the company produces and sells at probably cost organized play kits and has an entire organized play section to their website).

So in summary, the company recognizes on a functional level that the health of their games relies on a healthy and engaged community, but on a practical level has no real idea how to manage said community.

They benefit and profit from the time, love and money the community puts into their games and if they were smart they would invest some time and love back into that community to make the pie bigger ESPECIALLY for a young game like Armada.

That's true because there's a tournament scene supported by FFG, ie the support they offer leads to the desire for that support, and if there wasn't FFG tournament support it would just be the money for toys transaction. But there hasn't been a lack of tournament support, has there? We've had tournament kits just like X-Wing and Imperial Assault haven't we? (genuine question, I thought we had but I could be wrong). We don't need news about future waves, or whatever extra communications people are asking for, to support the tournament scene and keep people playing the game. Well, I suppose I can't say that for certain can I, maybe some people are giving the game up for lack of news, I dunno. The thing about it being 3rd most popular game suggests they're not though.

3rd most popular no, 3rd in sales numbers. And considering how much the items are and how many you need to make a decent fleet it says basically nothing about the health and potential longevity of the game. What does help with health and longevity of the game is the community. This is a simple fact for a game like this, actually VERY SIMILAR to online games. I think the board game company that realizes this and uses it competently will leave others in the dust.

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with expecting more from the companies you do business with. You can settle for what you get if you want, but that never got anyone anywhere.

3rd most popular no, 3rd in sales numbers. And considering how much the items are and how many you need to make a decent fleet it says basically nothing about the health and potential longevity of the game. What does help with health and longevity of the game is the community. This is a simple fact for a game like this, actually VERY SIMILAR to online games. I think the board game company that realizes this and uses it competently will leave others in the dust.

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with expecting more from the companies you do business with. You can settle for what you get if you want, but that never got anyone anywhere.

I certainly don't have a problem with wanting more, but expecting more is a different matter. Like I said, it's transactional. I don't think FFG have any right to expect any more of me than giving them money. They shouldn't expect me to be an evangelist for the game, run tournaments, etc, however much they might want that. And you may be right that it would be in there interests, but unless I own shares in their company I don't feel I have the right to expect anything of them in that regard either.

Anybody raging about customer interaction...always remember that there is a tool on their homepage where you can send a message to the product designers, inventers and playtesters directly, and they WILL answer your questions about rules, even if (some times) they are written clearly in the rulebook or explained in the FAQ. Not only that, so far, even if I asked stupid questions that coul've been answered by myself if I'd have reread the corresponding parts of the rulebook carefully, the answers were very politely worded.

That is a first for me, no other company goes so far to ENCOURAGE you to contact the ACTUAL GAME DESIGNERS with rules questions.

Please, no rage and no flaming intended with this post, but people sometimes forget those things. Also, they WANT you to hunger for new products, don't forget that

Yeah take a minute to think about how stupid this is.

You are taking time from DESIGNERS and people integral to the development of the game to answer questions you can get answered by reading the rule book carefully and you consider this a GOOD THING??? I consider it insanity. You could take a fresh college grad in communications or English or just a general BA and make them experts on 2 or 3 games (if it was your full time job you could be an expert in 3 or 4 games in a couple of months) and make them a social media/forum/email communications manager.

Anyways, there are all sorts of solutions to the problem, but not until they recognize there is a problem...

Dras and DA already do this for free.

I think an important aspect to all of this is that FFG isn't just in the business of selling toy spaceships. Bear with me, this is a separate but related point than my "FFG is a board game company" post earlier. FFG has two very broad categories of games. I'm not talking about board games vs card games, but rather "one-offs" vs "expandables". The one-offs may have expansions, but the main aspect is that the base game gives you an essentially complete experience. Twilight Imperium, Arkham Horror, Descent, Chaos in the Old World, GoT Board Game, etc. All of these games have expansions to be sure, but the expansions only give you (generally) more of the base game.

Then you have the expandables. Here you have LCGs, X-Wing, Armada, Imperial Assault. These are the games where the core set only ever gets you a taste of the full game. The key difference is in the expandables, you cannot play the game as intended with just a core set. Sure, expansions for descent or TI3 change the game in wonderful ways, but you can play the game as designed with a single purchase (note that Imperial Assault exists in a grey area - campaign is a one-off, skirmish is an expandable). However, you cannot build a legal squad with an X-Wing core set, and you would be hard pressed to put together a legal deck with the most recent LCG core sets (conquest and GoT second edition). I don't even know if it's possible, I got a single core of those to play the tutorials and see if I liked them (spoiler, I did), and immediately bought two more cores.

The expandable games have a competitive aspect to them (in fact, I would call this category competitive except they are all equally fun, albeit expensive, as casual games) and that's where the desire (some would say need) for more consistent input from FFG comes from. People who buy into the competitive ecosystem of a game create a core audience whose support for the game is crucial to the long term health of the game. Sure, casual players may buy a ship or two, but they aren't the ones buying multiple starvipers to get autothrusters or every single card pack to keep their decks on the bleeding edge. Once the goodwill of those customers is earned, it is very hard to shake (look at how many diehard GW fans remain despite that company's seemingly active attempts to drive them away). Taking steps to ensure that goodwill helps sell the ecosystem, it helps sell the brand, and it helps sell little plastic spaceships.

FFG has done a ton to secure that goodwill. The LCG model, for example, helps show that they want to develop fun and engaging card games, not sell boxes of booster packs. Their miniatures maintain a level of quality and balance that outstrips any other company current working in that particular space (IMHO). They do hear the community and issue errata, FAQs and eventual fixes as needed. The little extra bit of more regular interaction with the player base (heck, look at Privateer Press and how active Doug Seacat is on their forums) would pretty much seal the deal. Personally I don't think it's necessary. I'm all in for FFG and even if I don't buy everything they make, when they announce or launch a game you can bet I'm at least paying attention. However, I can totally see how other people would want that interaction to the point that it's that little extra bit that would push their loyalty over the line to fanboy. If I were FFG, the salary of a single "community liaison" is a truly small price to pay for the loyalty that would likely engender.

That is funny I would rush to sell. The game is one to two wave incompete feeling to me so I would dump it and FF forever. I've sunk a ton of time and money into the game and know enough about the game now to realize it would not be something I would bring out more than 3-4 times a year so that means aI would dump it. Asmodee is already moving into supporting Armada events this year and that would not happen if the game was left Incomplete and cancelled. They are specifically looking to expand it and the sales are great. The only issue is all the causal players finding each other in many areas. That takes time and patience. It is a new game. I am tire of people just not waiting 2-4 weeks for week 3. But of course when that gets announced we will start hearing grumblings for wave 4.

I have to admit, it could be a good marketing ploy. If I was told today that they wouldn't be making anymore Armada materials it would make buying the things I want a big priority. The rush to buy before it goes out of stock. Even if they were to quit making Armada wouldn't mean we had to stop playing it. Last I looked at the products section they're still getting restocking when they're out anything so I think we're o.k.

Play some higher point games in the meantime in the order of 600 points. The options become much greater. That should get you buy at least 3.21 weeks according to my careful calculation.

I don't really think that it's a big deal that we haven't heard much about Armada lately.

What I would like more of is strategy articles, or analysis of the meta. You know, stuff that people post on the forums, but more official-like.

Kind of like the XWing article that was posted this last week. Just a small something that says 'Hey, we're invested in this game too!'

It's not that I think they're not invested. Whether they're waiting to get all their ducks in a row, or to have a shorter release cycle after announcement, or whatever. I believe in FFG, and I know that Armada will continue.

I would just like that ephemeral more.

Could just be that FFG is still kind of a small-ish company with a small-ish company mindset. While they could definitely use some more manpower, I understand the resistance to that sort of thing. Once you start doing regular updates and articles, and community outreach, you can't exactly go back to an ad-hoc basis without people losing their minds.

I'm actually okay with the slow release schedule of Armada.

Based on my experience with X-Wing, the more wave (And by that I mean sweet and juicy upgrade cards here and there, maybe eventually fix for ships that don't see the table often) this game will have, the harder it will be to sell it to new players because of the entry cost. Just right now, You have to buy the Starter Box (100$) and probably either the Home One or Star Destroyer (50$) (because let's face it, you probably got into the game for those ship). Then a fighter pack to have some option instead of just X-Wing or Tie Fighter (20$). Then, to round up your fleet, you should add either a Gladiator or an Assault Frigate (30$). A dice pack is close to being essential because more often than not you'll roll a load of dice (10$). So we're looking at 210$, and we'll keep it at casual level where you can play with printed cards, because that's actually where it can get out of hands pretty fast, and we're just in wave 2.

I don't think that FFG is dropping Armada, I just think that they are taking their time with it.

I'm actually okay with the slow release schedule of Armada.

Based on my experience with X-Wing, the more wave (And by that I mean sweet and juicy upgrade cards here and there, maybe eventually fix for ships that don't see the table often) this game will have, the harder it will be to sell it to new players because of the entry cost. Just right now, You have to buy the Starter Box (100$) and probably either the Home One or Star Destroyer (50$) (because let's face it, you probably got into the game for those ship). Then a fighter pack to have some option instead of just X-Wing or Tie Fighter (20$). Then, to round up your fleet, you should add either a Gladiator or an Assault Frigate (30$). A dice pack is close to being essential because more often than not you'll roll a load of dice (10$). So we're looking at 210$, and we'll keep it at casual level where you can play with printed cards, because that's actually where it can get out of hands pretty fast, and we're just in wave 2.

I don't think that FFG is dropping Armada, I just think that they are taking their time with it.

Shut up and take my money!

I'm actually okay with the slow release schedule of Armada.

Based on my experience with X-Wing, the more wave (And by that I mean sweet and juicy upgrade cards here and there, maybe eventually fix for ships that don't see the table often) this game will have, the harder it will be to sell it to new players because of the entry cost. Just right now, You have to buy the Starter Box (100$) and probably either the Home One or Star Destroyer (50$) (because let's face it, you probably got into the game for those ship). Then a fighter pack to have some option instead of just X-Wing or Tie Fighter (20$). Then, to round up your fleet, you should add either a Gladiator or an Assault Frigate (30$). A dice pack is close to being essential because more often than not you'll roll a load of dice (10$). So we're looking at 210$, and we'll keep it at casual level where you can play with printed cards, because that's actually where it can get out of hands pretty fast, and we're just in wave 2.

I don't think that FFG is dropping Armada, I just think that they are taking their time with it.

Ha!

Yeah, that's how it starts. There's a reason it's called Prack© (Plastic + Crack). You get a taste and in my experience, it hits these bits of your brain like bongo drums: Nostalgia!, Strategy!, TOYS!, dice!, Competition!

Before you know it you are chin deep in Prack like I am and have multiple sets of different 3rd party accessories and command decks and carrying solutions and etc. etc. etc.

I have a speed 1 through 4 movement tools. I have a river of dice. I have very near to the max number of any ship you might ever take.

I once played a 1500 point game where BOTH SIDES were MY STUFF and there were still ships and squadrons in the box, and I have gotten a bunch of ships and squads since!! Muahahahahahaha

Granted, my buddy plays with my rebel stuff, but I have this compulsion that if I theorycraft something I have to have the ships on-hand to try it.

The only thing I might not get is a third MC80, cause really, its hard to justify 1. I do have 3 ISDs cause that can be viable.

Anyways, I digress....

I once played a 1500 point game where BOTH SIDES were MY STUFF and there were still ships and squadrons in the box, and I have gotten a bunch of ships and squads since!!

You show remarkable restraint.

I'd imagine they do some market research to make sure they give consumers plenty of time to buy wave 2 before they release wave 3. If people are still purchasing already released items(like that 3rd m30 and 2nd AF2 that I'm planning to get), then why release new items to compete with current sales. I'd be willing to bet they've got people watching sales numbers to factor into the release date. Keep in mind that just announcing wave 3 will boost sales even before it's released.

With regard to the original topic, I think its a pretty good sign that they are discussing Armada in the 2017 organized play article.

With regard to the original topic, I think its a pretty good sign that they are discussing Armada in the 2017 organized play article.

Link, please?

Found it:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/3/15/the-next-step-in-organized-play/

I'm actually okay with the slow release schedule of Armada.

Based on my experience with X-Wing, the more wave (And by that I mean sweet and juicy upgrade cards here and there, maybe eventually fix for ships that don't see the table often) this game will have, the harder it will be to sell it to new players because of the entry cost. Just right now, You have to buy the Starter Box (100$) and probably either the Home One or Star Destroyer (50$) (because let's face it, you probably got into the game for those ship). Then a fighter pack to have some option instead of just X-Wing or Tie Fighter (20$). Then, to round up your fleet, you should add either a Gladiator or an Assault Frigate (30$). A dice pack is close to being essential because more often than not you'll roll a load of dice (10$). So we're looking at 210$, and we'll keep it at casual level where you can play with printed cards, because that's actually where it can get out of hands pretty fast, and we're just in wave 2.

I don't think that FFG is dropping Armada, I just think that they are taking their time with it.

Ha!

Yeah, that's how it starts. There's a reason it's called Prack© (Plastic + Crack). You get a taste and in my experience, it hits these bits of your brain like bongo drums: Nostalgia!, Strategy!, TOYS!, dice!, Competition!

Before you know it you are chin deep in Prack like I am and have multiple sets of different 3rd party accessories and command decks and carrying solutions and etc. etc. etc.

I have a speed 1 through 4 movement tools. I have a river of dice. I have very near to the max number of any ship you might ever take.

I once played a 1500 point game where BOTH SIDES were MY STUFF and there were still ships and squadrons in the box, and I have gotten a bunch of ships and squads since!! Muahahahahahaha

Granted, my buddy plays with my rebel stuff, but I have this compulsion that if I theorycraft something I have to have the ships on-hand to try it.

The only thing I might not get is a third MC80, cause really, its hard to justify 1. I do have 3 ISDs cause that can be viable.

Anyways, I digress....

Well, if I was only playing one game, I would not care much myself; including wave 8 that will be out this week, I will have more than 2000$ worth of X-Wing ship. But since Armada and Imperial Assault came out, I had to slow down my purchase. Add to that all the other boardgames I want to buy *cough* Star Wars Rebellion *cough*, and a guy start to get happy when there is delayed or lack of new units for some of those games. I'm not sure if I was happy to learn about the new Imperial Assault expansion. I want to get it as soon as possible, yet my wallet hope it will not be out until Gencon.... so many conflicted emotions....

Tell you one thing p. If they are interested in really growing the game they need to publish example of how things work. Too many people don't know how the game really works when they play. They get frustrated and don't give it a second try. They expect us to teach them the rules. The game will survive but nipo thanks to their marketing department etc. should have produced a high quality tutorial and a plethora of illustrative examples. Sure a lot of it is in the rule book...one easy to miss line. Good rule books have a way of mentioning the thing a couple of different times in slightly different ways to get the point across. Each card should also have a clear written explaination of how it works with some other cards. I spent several hours getting all the rules straight. Too many people just tuned out while we were trying to learn and never gave it a second chance. You only have once to make a good impression. I own 81 games and this is hands down the worst rule book and resources to rule sever. When beginners aphave to flock to the community for answers you know you messed up.

Learn to Play - Rodney does great work, look to that for an example of how to teach people a game.

There is a company out there that uses Learn to Play and then puts a big red icon on there rules cover "Read no further, go to www.ourwebsite.com/game and have us teach you to play".

The joy of this, I can throw it onto my TV, watch it with my friends and we are all on the same page. No more "forgetting" that key rule that wins you the game or missing a whole step.

Tell you one thing p. If they are interested in really growing the game they need to publish example of how things work. Too many people don't know how the game really works when they play. They get frustrated and don't give it a second try. They expect us to teach them the rules. The game will survive but nipo thanks to their marketing department etc. should have produced a high quality tutorial and a plethora of illustrative examples. Sure a lot of it is in the rule book...one easy to miss line. Good rule books have a way of mentioning the thing a couple of different times in slightly different ways to get the point across. Each card should also have a clear written explaination of how it works with some other cards. I spent several hours getting all the rules straight. Too many people just tuned out while we were trying to learn and never gave it a second chance. You only have once to make a good impression. I own 81 games and this is hands down the worst rule book and resources to rule sever. When beginners aphave to flock to the community for answers you know you messed up.

It's plausible that it would have been a good idea to do this, but different people have different ways in which they best learn a game. I'm a pretty book-learned person, but I still prefer learning a game by playing and having people point out my mistakes as I make them. Then, I'll go and look more closely at the rules. Or, better still, I learn the game along with my community.

But, more importantly, the only place this is getting us is could'a-should'a-would'a. There's no point in griping about how FFG could have done better. We're stuck with the situation as it is, and we should learn how to deal with it.

The best way I know how is to assure learners that everyone is going to make mistakes, and we'll allow reasonable take-backs while they're on the learning curve. Keep it fun, and casual.

Except for the gloating. Because fledgling Rebels need to learn their place, they will be gloated at when I defeat them as the glorious Galactic Empire, especially because their inexperience made it their destiny to be defeated.