Both Ewok movies weren't canon at any time.

Both Ewok movies weren't canon at any time.

When they were released, there was no such thing as canon, so they kind of were. People only started fighting over what was 'real' and 'not real' several years later, 1994 I believe, when Star Wars Insider was first published. (dates are confusing, wookieepedia states canon started with the first issue of insider, which was '94, although it was originally called the Lucasfilm Fan Club, starting in '87. Either way, well after the '84 and '85 Ewok movies)

When they were released, there was no such thing as canon, so they kind of were. People only started fighting over what was 'real' and 'not real' several years later, 1994 I believe, when Star Wars Insider was first published.

Discussions about what was "real" have been happening since Splinter of the Mind's Eye and Star Wars comics came out in 1978.

And the fight continues to this day, lol

When they were released, there was no such thing as canon, so they kind of were. People only started fighting over what was 'real' and 'not real' several years later, 1994 I believe, when Star Wars Insider was first published.

Discussions about what was "real" have been happening since Splinter of the Mind's Eye and Star Wars comics came out in 1978.

That may be so, but canon means official. Officially, canon was declared by Lucasfilm to include " Gospel,' or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas ' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history—with many off-shoots, variations and tangents—like any other well-developed mythology . " in the 1st issues of Star Wars Insider (the 23rd issue of the Lucasfilm Fan Club) in Fall of 1994. So prior to that, random fans may have discussed canon, but there was no official canon. Therefore, there is no basis to claim that the Ewok TV movies were not canon prior to the establishment of canon.

We need a 'Star Wars Holiday Special'- based expansion.

There.
I mentioned it. Someone had to.

I know, I know, I'll stand in front of this stake while y'all get some wood, gas and torches.

We need a 'Star Wars Holiday Special'- based expansion.

There.

I mentioned it. Someone had to.

I know, I know, I'll stand in front of this stake while y'all get some wood, gas and torches.

Lumpy's figure should be holding a stuffed bantha without its head.

We need a 'Star Wars Holiday Special'- based expansion.

There.

I mentioned it. Someone had to.

I know, I know, I'll stand in front of this stake while y'all get some wood, gas and torches.

Lumpy's figure should be holding a stuffed bantha without its head.

Mama has a special move called "Stir, Stir, WHIP!" that does massive damage to banthas.

Wow, Bossk embarrasses IG-88 in terms of power, despite the latter being 150% of the cost. Passive +2 damage, AoE secondary attack that ignores defensive dice and can hand out strain, passive Recover, passive negative condition removal etc. Ignoring the difference in mobility he might be better than Boba Fett.

FFG is finally getting around to making uniques worth their points

Yeah he's better than Boba relative to his cost, three attack dice and 6 speed still makes Boba a great unit. But man, that built in +2 damage is insane. FFG finally realized that no one wants to sink more than 10 points into a single unit. Really glad we're starting to get strong uniques at affordable price points, I feel like that gives the games a lot more flavor.

But I feel like the main thing that's missing from the game as a whole is support units for Scum. Without a cheap, 2-3 cost support unit like gideon/3P0/Imperial officer, it just feels like there's something obviously absent from the Scum faction. I get that it's not really in line with Mercs thematically, since they're bounty hunters that work a lone and all that, which I imagine is why we're missing something for that role. Even something like Luke that offers an AOE bonus to friendlies, maybe something like Xizor. That's about the only thing holding me back from playing Scum competitively right now.

I disagree. This is what I hated about the direction that Star Wars minis took. Units shouldn't have arbitrary costs. They should be costed based on their power. Making units that are more powerful than other units who cost more is a recipe for extreme imbalance. It leads to General Obi Wan Kenobi. People who would rather play with the earlier units, simply because they like them, can't because the meta game has been altered by bad cost practices. It is what leads to boring tournaments were everyone uses mirror squads because to do otherwise would be working from a disadvantage.

So if we agree that a bunch of early units were improperly costed and of limited competitive usability in comparison to certain other choices, would you prefer that all future units be likewise improperly costed and of limited usability?

Because that would be the cause of stagnation, we would just be playing Stormtroopers, Saboteurs and Luke for all time forever.

I don't have an answer, but only to say, will this trend continue? Is Bossk rightly costed for his abilities, or is he under cost? I'd much rather the FAQ adjusted the cost of earlier units, if, and only if, their cost is too high. What I'm concerned about is arbitrary cost. Cannot the developers have internal charts to determine the cost of a unit based on its power? All I'm asking for is a standard that prevents new units from pushing out old units making them unplayable until a new unit of the same character comes around.

I don't have an answer, but only to say, will this trend continue? Is Bossk rightly costed for his abilities, or is he under cost? I'd much rather the FAQ adjusted the cost of earlier units, if, and only if, their cost is too high. What I'm concerned about is arbitrary cost. Cannot the developers have internal charts to determine the cost of a unit based on its power? All I'm asking for is a standard that prevents new units from pushing out old units making them unplayable until a new unit of the same character comes around.

Agreed. So far it looks like FFG is just playing development by ear and based on feedback to a ridiculous degree. I'm fine with Bossk being cheaper than IG-88, but not THIS much cheaper especially if they never 'fix' IG-88.

Right now IA is facing power creep clear and simple... and its even effecting campaign.

EDIT: And whats worse is that they are nerfing the old figures like Royal Guards. I'm not going to argue whether they deserved the nerf or not, but nerfing the old figures and introducing these new powerful ones is pretty much saying "Buy our new stuff or get left in the dust."

Most Uniques from the first waves were extremely overcosted. This is what makes them unplayable, not the power creep.

I think the new Uniques have proper points costs.

And whats worse is that they are nerfing the old figures like Royal Guards. I'm not going to argue whether they deserved the nerf or not, but nerfing the old figures and introducing these new powerful ones is pretty much saying "Buy our new stuff or get left in the dust."

I think this is accurate, but that is the way of Fantasy Flight. Always be selling. I can understand, based on this figure, that other uniques are over priced, but 8 points, for 3 non-surge abilities that can be used every round and 3 regeneration, every round? That's insane for 8 points.

Most Uniques from the first waves were extremely overcosted. This is what makes them unplayable, not the power creep.

I think the new Uniques have proper points costs.

I would like to see a villain who isn't tough on his own but buffs allies to the point that not taking him out hurts you. They tried this with Somos and Soren but really over costed them. Somos should be like 5 points. Yes that's pretty cheap and the about cost of an elite officer for a (mostly) superior figure, but remember: he can't be redeployed, so when he's gone, he's gone. He needs to have a discount in campaign to account for such a risky investment. Alternatively he could afford to be boosted in his abilities. I think he should have an ability where friendly troopers don't block your line of sight. That way you can keep him behind the front lines shooting, while still using his command ability. That would, I feel, be enough of a that that the rebels would have to take him on, and in skirmish that would help him as well, with the added benefit of enhancing tactical play.

Most Uniques from the first waves were extremely overcosted. This is what makes them unplayable, not the power creep.

I think the new Uniques have proper points costs.

I agree. What people need to remember about Bossk is he's more expensive than a pair of elite tusken raiders, which gives you more health, more attacks, and one more figure. That last one is super important as it means losing one doesn't automatically give your opponent points, and you are better able to contest objectives. In campaign, board presence of uniques is also limited so for uniques to matter they need to be sufficiently tough and dangerous that ignoring them is dangerous. Plus they can't be reinforced but they still take up an open group, so you have one shot to make them useful. Additionally they have to be at least as dangerous anything else you could deploy or it isn't worth it. For all these reasons most uniques aren't considered worth it in the campaign. IG-88 costs as much as a group of elite royal guards. For the same points the guards buff allies, have the same amount of health, comparable damage, can be reinforced and redeployed, are faster, and you get two of them. While iggy might be a match for one elite guard, two?

I would like to see a villain who isn't tough on his own but buffs allies to the point that not taking him out hurts you. They tried this with Somos and Soren but really over costed them. Somos should be like 5 points. Yes that's pretty cheap and the about cost of an elite officer for a (mostly) superior figure, but remember: he can't be redeployed, so when he's gone, he's gone. He needs to have a discount in campaign to account for such a risky investment. Alternatively he could afford to be boosted in his abilities. I think he should have an ability where friendly troopers don't block your line of sight. That way you can keep him behind the front lines shooting, while still using his command ability. That would, I feel, be enough of a that that the rebels would have to take him on, and in skirmish that would help him as well, with the added benefit of enhancing tactical play.

That's a very thoughtful post. I was wondering if there were any non-unique figures that could be judged at comparable cost. So while, I party agree, especially about the part that you get two characters, let's break it down point by point.

The biggest issue I have is that Bossk has 3 abilities that do not require surge. And his one surge ability, 2 pierce, has a 50% chance of being available per turn based on his green dice. The Tusken are mellee and not ranged, and while a red and a green dice would normally be low on accuracy, the creators have decided to give Bossk two free accuracy so he has a 100% chance for 3 accuracy, a 50% chance for 4 or above, and a 16.6% chance for 5 accuracy. So while he is medium range, he is still ranged. The elite Tuskens, both of them are given +1 damage, and Bossk is given +2 damage. That would probably be fair if that was Bossk's only free ability, but he also has the accuracy, and a guarantee of at least one block.

Now if we compare their abilities, the Tuskens can shoot their ginormous musket for up to 5 accuracy and up to 4 damage, but can't apply any other abilities. That's not bad. Bossk gets indirect fire, and while I can't fully make it out, I don't think it specifically says that you can't use other abilities, I'm pretty sure you cannot apply Bossk's +2 damage to the splash. I could be wrong. Still his grenade is a pretty powerful ability for dealing with lesser characters. But now we come to the creme dela crème ability. The ability to regenerate 3 health (and mitigate one damage with a block) every turn without spending a surge. That to me seems the tipping point in saying Bossk is under cost at 8 points.

There were only a few undercosted units like the Royal Guards. The meta would still be all 4x4, if these units wouldn't have been nerfed. Therefore I'm fine with the nerfs,

To change all overcosted uniques would be too much, because except for Gideon all uniques of the first waves are too expensive. To fix them all, there would need to be a rules change, how uniques work in general, rather than fixing them one by one. Check: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/203432-fixing-uniques-for-skirmish/

There were only a few undercosted units like the Royal Guards. The meta would still be all 4x4, if these units wouldn't have been nerfed. Therefore I'm fine with the nerfs,

To change all overcosted uniques would be too much, because except for Gideon all uniques of the first waves are too expensive. To fix them all, there would need to be a rules change, how uniques work in general, rather than fixing them one by one. Check: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/203432-fixing-uniques-for-skirmish/

That was a good thread. I still think an errata reassessing the cost of older unique figures maybe the best answer, but going forward I hope we don't keep seeing more and more abilities added to figures unless they are cost appropriate. That all being said, I think Bossk still costs too little for what he is capable of.

That's not bad. Bossk gets indirect fire, and while I can't fully make it out, I don't think it specifically says that you can't use other abilities, I'm pretty sure you cannot apply Bossk's +2 damage to the splash. I could be wrong.

I don't think you can use surges, as this ability appears to target a space rather than a figure and is not an attack. Surges/abilities only trigger on attacks.

Most Uniques from the first waves were extremely overcosted. This is what makes them unplayable, not the power creep.

I think the new Uniques have proper points costs.

I agree. Blah blah i won't quote myself blah blah...

That's a very thoughtful post. I was wondering if there were any non-unique figures that could be judged at comparable cost. So while, I party agree, especially about the part that you get two characters, let's break it down point by point.

The biggest issue I have is that Bossk has 3 abilities that do not require surge. And his one surge ability, 2 pierce, has a 50% chance of being available per turn based on his green dice. The Tusken are mellee and not ranged, and while a red and a green dice would normally be low on accuracy, the creators have decided to give Bossk two free accuracy so he has a 100% chance for 3 accuracy, a 50% chance for 4 or above, and a 16.6% chance for 5 accuracy. So while he is medium range, he is still ranged. The elite Tuskens, both of them are given +1 damage, and Bossk is given +2 damage. That would probably be fair if that was Bossk's only free ability, but he also has the accuracy, and a guarantee of at least one block.

Now if we compare their abilities, the Tuskens can shoot their ginormous musket for up to 5 accuracy and up to 4 damage, but can't apply any other abilities. That's not bad. Bossk gets indirect fire, and while I can't fully make it out, I don't think it specifically says that you can't use other abilities, I'm pretty sure you cannot apply Bossk's +2 damage to the splash. I could be wrong. Still his grenade is a pretty powerful ability for dealing with lesser characters. But now we come to the creme dela crème ability. The ability to regenerate 3 health (and mitigate one damage with a block) every turn without spending a surge. That to me seems the tipping point in saying Bossk is under cost at 8 points.

I see your point, but don't forget the tuskens get to attack twice while still moving which ups the group's damage and flexibility. You're right the regen is tough to overcome but it happens at the end of the round, so you have to survive through the activation of all of your opponent's units, so he's vulnerable to being piled on. He's not fast so he can't get away too well, and with the white die he's not exactly tanky. None of this is to say he isn't tough but I think the disadvantages balance out. He's still just one figure and that's a big deal.

The opportunity cost of using single figure deployment groups has been on my mind lately as I've recently started a campaign playing as the imperial for the first time, especially when you can't redeploy them.

That's a good explanation. I don't have so much a problem with Bossk costing 8, though I think it should be 10, based on the arguments presented about earlier uniques being too high, but that it has wiped out some of my favorite character, though I like Bossk. Do you think that FF will errata a cost change? Or do you think they'll just make new figures of, say, Dart Vader, IG 88, Boba Fett, etc, down the road? What do you think is a more realistic cost for DV, BF, and IG88 now?

While they're at it fix the ATST too. That thing does nothing but be a wall.

That's a good explanation. I don't have so much a problem with Bossk costing 8, though I think it should be 10, based on the arguments presented about earlier uniques being too high, but that it has wiped out some of my favorite character, though I like Bossk. Do you think that FF will errata a cost change? Or do you think they'll just make new figures of, say, Dart Vader, IG 88, Boba Fett, etc, down the road? What do you think is a more realistic cost for DV, BF, and IG88 now?

As for what to do about the existing uniques: I...don't know. It makes me sad to say this but between x wing stuff and ia, a lot of my confidence in ffg's ability (or willingness) to balance those games has faltered. I can't say what I think FFG will do. I think though that errata are unlikely. They seem to only be willing to do that when something affecting the game as a whole (such as the 4x4 in IA and the phantom in xwing) needs changing, which I kinda agree with. Most likely, they do nothing more than release command cards, attachments, etc that technically work for the figure they are included with, but are really tailor made for earlier units that don't get used.

My hope though is that they start releasing mini campaigns that focus on these under used characters that allow them to print new cards for them that are better balanced, and instead of wasting a figure pack on the new version, use that spare slot to print extras of a figure that only comes in the boxes. A Darth Vader mini campaign whose accompanying figure pack include royal guards. An ig88 focused expansion that has hk figure packs. You get the idea.

As for balancing them, I don't think the answer is always points. I mentioned Somos previously. Boba Fett is pretty close to the right cost, maybe one or two points less? I think part of his trouble is that one of his strengths is his mobility, but on alot of maps, it just doesn't matter that much. Part of his trouble is also lack of support, which is slowly being remedied as the mercenaries are being filled out. Ig maybe should be maybe in the 8-9 region. I've not played with him and haven't seen him played either. Vader on the other hand is a tough one. I don't think points are his only problem. He's tough and slow so he gets ignored, but reduce his points and he gets ignored even more. Though he gets more viable he's a smaller percentage of points. I think Vader would be great if you used him on the Hoth skirmish mission that had the probe droids. Just send him down that corridor by himself and dare any one to try and take those points from him.

What do you think is a more realistic cost for DV, BF, and IG88 now?

For how good Boosk is, you have to relook at DV/BF/IG88...heck even Chewbacca/Han/RGC. My ideas:

DV: reduce cost to 13 (let's be honest, his surge abilities or auto abilities are lacking; he has potential to just hit hard)

Boba Fett: reduce cost to 12

IG88: reduce cost to 10 and give him an auto colored third dice or give him ability to shoot through targets like HK's

RGC: reduce cost to 12

Han: reduce cost to 9

Chewbacca: reduce cost to 12

Most of these are just a reduction of 3-5 pts.

~D

What do you think is a more realistic cost for DV, BF, and IG88 now?

For how good Boosk is, you have to relook at DV/BF/IG88...heck even Chewbacca/Han/RGC. My ideas:

DV: reduce cost to 13 (let's be honest, his surge abilities or auto abilities are lacking; he has potential to just hit hard)

Boba Fett: reduce cost to 12

IG88: reduce cost to 10 and give him an auto colored third dice or give him ability to shoot through targets like HK's

RGC: reduce cost to 12

Han: reduce cost to 9

Chewbacca: reduce cost to 12

Most of these are just a reduction of 3-5 pts.

~D

RGC at 12 would have a huge effect on campaign, IMO. That figure kills a campaign mission in my experience, so any decrease in cost should only be skirmish based.