In lieu of not being presented with a better method outside of the abstarct of Step Values (again these are not NOW applied when hitting multiple targets on purpose)... so I stand by Step Values still, sorry

And as per Star Fire - I like my rules - the CORE presents weak rules / so do as you wish herein

I don't mean to come off as too critical; I get that you've put thought into this. It's just that I can't help thinking that this whole step damage thing, whilst a good initial idea, is one of those ones that the more you think about it in relation to the rules as they stand, the more complex the interaction with those other rules is going to be if you're to preserve the nature of those other rules.

If you want to change the rules for Amputator Shells or Mighty Shot, to a bonus per DoS for example, then you're getting in to the realm of changing all the rules to suit the houserule you implemented to "make things simpler"...at which point you're not making things simpler, your overcomplicating the entire system.

No I dont - I didn't intend on Touching the "X" in relation to what your just said - that should be the last thing "touched" as its a very aggressive multiplier!

X DoS +Y

Understandable some of this gets lost in translation - thats why Im constantly checking the math with you

Listings SPECIAL Ammo in order to address each variant:

Page 165 CORE Book

QUICK RULE CALLs:

- Amputator Shells (no need to change anything - just apply that bonus to the TOTAL Damage at the end of your math)

- Bleeder Rounds (each success scored = 1 round of Blood Loss occurs or until successfully treated)

- Dumdum Bullets (no need to change anything - just apply that bonus to the TOTAL Damage at the end of your math)

- Expander Rounds (no need to change anything - just apply that bonus to the TOTAL Damage at the end of your math)

- Explosive Arrows / Quarrels (no need to change anything - just apply that bonus to the TOTAL Damage at the end of your math)

- Hot-Shot Charge Packs (no need to change anything - just apply that bonus to the TOTAL Damage at the end of your math)

- Inferno Shells (no need to change anything - just apply that bonus to the TOTAL Damage at the end of your math)

- Man-Stopper Bullets (no need to change anything - just apply that bonus to the TOTAL Damage at the end of your math)

- Scrambler Rounds (no need to change anything - just apply that bonus to the TOTAL Damage at the end of your math)

- Tempest Bolt Shells (no need to change anything - just apply that bonus to the TOTAL Damage at the end of your math)

- Tox Rounds (no need to change anything - just apply that bonus to the TOTAL Damage at the end of your math)

OK EVERYTHING above in the CORE Book only adds a +2 here or a +1 there or appends a Weapon trait to said wepaon - nothing herein breaks my DoS system in the slightest...

QUOTE: no need to change anything - just apply that bonus to the TOTAL Damage at the end of your math I.E. THE TOTAL

Example: X DoS +Y (with Amputator Shells) = X DoS + Y +2 (that's it FIN)

Autogun Example = 2 DoS + 5 (see top of this page post - without "Amputator Shells" the Autogun is 2 DoS + 3)

Compatible with CORE Rule options DONE

- Bleeder Rounds (each success scored = 1 round of Blood Loss occurs or until successfully treated)

Example: FOUR SUCCESS Hit

Autogun

S/3/10 * 2 DoS +3

Single Shot Example: 2 points of damage X (times) 4 successes + (plus) 3 = 11 Total Damage (before Soak)

In this case the target Bleeds for 4 rounds or until successfully treated - whichever comes first!

At this point in these works I'd like to get some insight from some other perspectives on this herein..

ATM its only me and Jolly P putting our "stylings" into this.

Ideally I like to hear what any of the following "peeps" got to say?

Cogniczar
Joeker
Lynata
Robin Graves
Brother Malachai
Gregor Eisenhorn
Tim Huckelbery

Stay GAMING

Morbid

QUOTE: no need to change anything - just apply that bonus to the TOTAL Damage at the end of your math I.E. THE TOTAL

My problem with this is that it radically changes the nature of and devalues the bonus.

As I mentioned in a previous post, +2 per hit is quite significant when you're calculating multiple hits. If you're removing multiple hits and replacing it with a static damage bonus based on DoS, then that +2 is insignificant for Full or Semi Auto Burst.

Even going from Step 1 (+2 damage) to Step 2 (+5 damage) shadows and outstrips the bonus from Amputator Rounds, a special ammo type, I'll remind you, that is Extremely Rare . It's supposed to do something significant. Under your houserule, no-one would bother even trying to obtain this ammunition. It's just not worth the effort when even the smallest return for auto-fire is better than the bonus the ammo gives you.

I inferred it before so I'll say it plainly; I think you're too attached to this step-damage idea. Take a step back and look at it again. As written, it doesn't achieve the results you think it does and it certainly doesn't achieve the results it should. Whatever rules for auto-fire (full or semi) you end up with, it needs to consider the following;

1) It needs to account for the base "power" of the weapon; full-auto with an Autopistol must be significantly different to full-auto with a heavy stubber. A static bonus that isn't modified by the type of weapon does not achieve this .

1a) This difference should also include special ammo types, weapon mods and talents. In every case I know of, +2 damage is intended to be "per hit", not "per auto burst".

2) Toughness, Armour and other damage reducers are also intended to be "per hit". Yes, you might be aiming at a more "pulpy" feel, but the base game is intended to be "gritty" and simulationist. Whatever houserule you come up with should reflect this. Heavy armour needs to feel like heavy armour. Small guns need to be different to big guns. Your rules...don't do this.

3) Multiple hits vs. different hit locations.

4) Multiple hits applying to multiple targets.

Your step-damage idea, as worthy as it might be, achieves none of these goals and further, is also more complicated than the simple rule I suggested; treat each hit as a separate hit. It fits the current rules, accounts for all of the above and changes nothing about the system as a whole. The only thing that changes, under my rules, is that instead of rolling for damage, you calculate it based on DoS;(more or less) all other factors remain the same . This is the K.I.S.S principle. Keep it Simple. Don't change what you don't have to. If something's working, don't try to fix it. Your step-damage rules change too much; it alters the dynamic of the game from "get a big gun, it's awesome" to "don't bother with big guns, they're pointless, just focus on accuracy instead". When a pistol is functionally as good as a heavy weapon, you must surely know that something isn't right...right?

I just took a look at this, but don't have the time to digest it fully. Lots of progress I'm seeing from initial pitch to now. I'll comment back in some time when I do some testing.

So I gave this some critical thinking and here's my thoughts. Digest and respond kindly

The formula of (X DoS) + modifier is a nice and elegant mechanic. Definitely works as a base.

Rate of Fire is where it blurs. I suggest instead of using deterministic math, simply roll a d100 per listed number of single shot, burst, and full auto. Allows nomination of targets without having to redress weapons for narrative and mechanical balance.

Range. I prefer to keep to the core ranges modifying the rolls. Allows greater damage when closer. Less further or outright misses.

I'm aware that ranges is a highly preferential thing in regards to you favoring the numenera system, but I personally find it almost stifling and too simplistic for my personal tastes.

Under this minimalist rendition of your proposal, melee would be changed as such:

Same formula of (X DoS) + modifier.

Swift attack allows WSB/2 equivalent of Rate of Fire.

Lightning Attack allows WSB equivalent of Rate of Fire.

To summarize the process now:

1. Roll to hit

2. Calculate damage

3. Allocate hits.

4. Resolve wounds.

Under this system I'd change a dodge and parry to work based on:

1 use untrained

AGB/2 uses trained.

AGB with step aside.

Thoughts?

I'm not the ideal person to ask about this sort of thing. Sorry. D:

Actually... I like this idea! Number of DoS in attack most of the times is useless and FAB and SAB can be made the same way as in Core.

Balancing this would be tough, though. Average chance to hit is what, 30%-40% for a character on 1st level? To gain any DoS - 20%-30%? For balance you would have to increase static damage for all weapons by what, 3,4?

Roll for damage gives 5.5 damage on average. Average number of DoS that starting character can make while attacking is only around 0,3 per round. It means that it takes around three turns to gain DoS and be able to deal some serious damage.

Keep in mind the system is suppose to have "low-level" types rely on situational modifiers in order to achieve good DoS... Whereas "high-level" types do not require such a crutch... I described this previously in the post - maybe the game as a whole needs more modifiers both PRO and CON to attacking

In all my research DH2 does not have a "Higher Ground" bonus for example

Food for thought

Stay GAMING

Morbid

If I don't hear too much I'll start posting some updates to this house rules set by next week - just wanted to give in some breathing room for the rest of the community to throw their hats in...

Ok, I got it. There's a problem with stacking modificators though. It's easy to stack 20-30 bonus points to test, but when bonus points reach 50 and there are also penalties to include... It's getting annoying. It would be little easier if all creatures in a game received WS and BS stat boost.

You know by default Standard Shot (shooting) in DH2 grants a +10 BS by default in-built, right?

Yeah but how is this relevant?

Woops I see your point Commediante - you said "creatures" not PCs = duh... my bad

Commediante if looking to incorporate new facets of play considered house ruling that "foes" who either double the PC / ally count or have surrounded the PCs and their allies on two sides gain a +10% BS or WS bonus - the closest representation of this idea would be D&D's use of the Flanking rules...

Stay GAMING

Morbid

Update...

Play Tested - Works Well

Note: this "system" abstracts the bullets & damage suffered (this is not a simulation)

Burst / Full AUTO Considerations

Example:

Autogun S/3/10 2 DoS +3

Five Success Hit: 2 x 5 = 10 + 3 = 13

Five DoS Step Damage = 20

Soak 13 (TB+AR)
Soak 20 (TB+AR)

Soak the Base DoS damage individually from the Step Value Damage…

Otherwise soaking to total “33” is nigh impossible / breaks the game! ( the 33 here is from = 20 + 13)

NEVER divide the Step Damage – this will result in no damage making Burst / Full meaningless

Foil: Waste of bullets in a game setting whereby most characters only have 2 clips per gun (be default - players should be counting their bullets like "wand charges" in D&D lol)

Additionally (baq to Burst / Full AUTO + Multiple Targets SEE PRIOR IN THE POST)

Just "drop" the Step Damage Value

Apply the calculated Damage (x times Y + Modifier) to each target as Expressed earlier in this post - that work elegantly with the "improvement above"...

By the example above;

13 Damage is applied to each target hit (then they get to soak)

It is by this abstraction the concept is delivered (not a virtualization of gunfire / but then again nor is the "mini table top game")

Stay GAMING

Morbid

UPDATE: This has been revised to allow for TWO options "Braced or Not Braced" SEE NEW POST HERE

• Adjust Hit : for every 2 DoS, the attacker may shift the hit's location to the next adjacent body part.
  
• Weak Spot : for 3 DoS, the attacker may lower a location's AP by 50% (rounded down) for the purpose of this one hit. The target's armour must have a reasonable weak spot, such as a helmet's lenses. Many targets will only have a Weak Spot on their head, and some may not have one at all -- the GM is the final arbiter.
  
• Disabling Shot : for 2 DoS, the attacker may choose to hit a piece of equipment carried on the affected hit location. This may be a weapon or a piece of gear. Final results are up to GM interpretation (and should respect the attacker's weapon), but possible effects could include a sword being cracked in two, a gun being knocked out of a target's hands, a grenade being hit and going off prematurely, or a radio being destroyed.

Wow - Lynata - let me fully digest - but on the face of it - you're my Hero!

Thanks for the feedback on this + support!

I will review and post later this week...

Morbid

Whew, I sure hope you're not disappointed by the detail then!

I'm not sure how much of a help I can be, but I'll subscribe for your response.

Update...

So the emperor in all his divine authority had me play test this stuff last Saturday.

You're proposed system for handling of subsequent roll for damage is very elegant but lacks the ability to handle multiple dice damage types like 2D10, 3D10 or anything along those lines - without rolling additional dice of course.

I do like the option to "buy" by DoS Adjust Hit, Weak Spot, and Disabling Shot!

I think between Me, JollyP, and Lynata - anybody looking at this has at least a good basis to jump off from - if they desire to play the game without having to roll for damage (remove the damage roll)...

I will keep tooling as we play with these house rules and if "improvements" come along I will be sure to update this post with our findings - if "flaws" are found and can;t be fixed I will post those as well.

I think for now I will sign off of this post/subject

Stay GAMING

Morbid

You're proposed system for handling of subsequent roll for damage is very elegant but lacks the ability to handle multiple dice damage types like 2D10, 3D10 or anything along those lines - without rolling additional dice of course.

Yeah, it's pretty much a "one die to rule them all" kind of deal -- but that's why I would advertise for "fixed damage". Not only does it cut down on dice rolling in general and makes more sense in terms of realism, it also allows the entire attack to be resolved with just 1 die.

A 2d10 or 3d10 damage weapon would just have a higher base damage and/or more penetration. The singular element of randomness would be the one-die attack roll that both defines (1) the hit location and as such the target's AP soak, and (2) the amount of DoS the attacker might invest to improve the hit.

Example #1 :

Valhallan marksman Dasha Malenko wants to take out the enemy leader and takes aim with her M91 Mordian-Gaunt long las. Her player commits to the attack and rolls 22. With a BS of 48, this means a torso hit to two Degrees of Attack; just enough to shift the hit location from the torso to the head! The gun's high base damage and lack of armour on the target's head means the leader goes down, throwing his followers into confusion.

Example #2 :

Deathwatch Captain Elias and his squad are engaging a group of Tyranid Warriors. The Apothecary is engaged in melee, whilst the Techmarine keeps working on a sealed airlock, as Elias decides to unleash a boltgun burst on several of the attacking xenos at once. His player rolls a 36, hitting for five Degrees of Success and applying his boltgun's unmodified base damage to three enemies (primary target's left leg, 1st bonus target's right leg, 2nd bonus target's right leg)

But I'm pretty biased against "rolling for damage" in general and consider it a bad "D&D inheritance" industry standard, which certainly influenced my design decision here.

I'll be keeping an eye on the thread for any further ideas and feedback. This kind of community brainstorming is always fun!

On a sidenote, I think this might make for a somewhat suitable single-digit hit location table:

Hey Everyone...

Glad this became my first HOT TOPIC here on the posts!

I moved my final work here (FIN) - though I will continue to post, tweak, and work with anyone who's got the interest to do so IN this particular post...

For me I needed to consolidate all the info into one place - in linear easy to read format (easy to read is a joke lol).

Math, examples, revisions, and questions should remain here though!

Stay GAMING

Morbid

Has anybody tried out the DoS system herein yet - just curious?

Morbid