As discussed here on the FORUM

So after reading through the foums in regards to what would people like to see the next edition of 40k...

Alot of you expressed interest in doing a Single-roll combat solution to help speed up play!

NOW = 1 Roll tells us if the attack hits, what body location was stuck, and now how much damage the attack inflicted!

So this morning while at work with a cup of coffee - I redid the weapon codes to best serve this effect

How does it work?

After praying to the Machine God and bowing and prostrations before the crafted weapon - all a player need do is Roll an Attack!

DoS (Degrees of Success)

1 = 1 Point of Damage per Success Scored

2 = 1 Points of Damage per Success Scored

The Modifier AFTER the weapon code is applied to the Total Damage Scored per the Successes

Example; Lasgun / 2 Dos +3
Shooter scores 3 successes (6 points of damage +3 = 9 points of damage in total)

NOTE: I only posted "max damage" in order to figure out the math here my breakdown is as follows;

15 Max = 15 divided by 5 = 3

So at 5 success this weapon inflicts maximum damage

By that the math is all divisible by 5 and the modifier at the end bring the total up to that listed Max Value...

Logic/Gist: Keep in mind yeah at the low end of the spectrum (beginning) characters wont be normall doing 5 successes alot if at all; but with some XP and time put in (veteran) characters will be able to score these types of hits!

In essence 5 DoS nets you max damage regardless of the weapon...(this allows for incremental play-ability whereby a character grows into the ability to hit "that well" later on rather than the onset of character development / gaming)

Disclaimer

Keep in mind EVERYONE this is very basic and I only wanted to see if my "values" jived with most of you (the forum guys I respect / I won't be shy about saying that)...

As in anything I present this may not be meant fort everyone - rather than poking holes - if you have something constructive to add then by all means lets colab and see what we all can get done together - otherwise I don't care for negative or otherwise pointless critiques that serve no purpose in progressing forward...

Whats NEEDED

How would Accurate, Tearing, and all the other Special Qualities work now? (MorbidDon doesnt know yet)

How does this apply to Righteous Fury (again that dirty bastard MoribDon doesn't know yet) SOLVED SEE BELOW

Etc etc and what not

Morbid

I omitted RANGES because I do distances like Numenera...

Point-Blank ; touch based distance

Immediate distance from a character is within reach or within a few steps; if a character stands in a small room, everything in the room is within immediate distance. At most, immediate distance is 10 feet (3 m)

Short distance is anything greater than immediate distance but less than 50 feet (15 m) or so

Long distance is anything greater than short distance but less than 100 feet (30 m) or so. Beyond that range, distances are always specified—500 feet (152 m), 1 mile (1.6 km), and so on

NOTE: Bonuses & Penalties are derived from your spacial distance to the target - not what the gun manufacture says is the distance - far away is far away despite the gun your holding / i.e. spacial distances...

Except that makes little sense? Weapons have effective ranges, which is why there's different ranges for different weapons.

You'd give a person with a pistol the same chance to hit at 500m as a person with a rifle?

As much as the Numenera setting interests me, the mechanics turn me off, as do most Rules-Lite systems.

Your eyes and the weapon your holding don't improve your shot - grip, boring (aka the rifling), and sights whether they be scopes or iron sights are more in the realm of making a firearm more accurate as opposed to the next.

Shooting a 45 at a target 40 feet away is the same as shooting a target with a Uzi at same range (not counting bucking / ie Recoil) is the same as Shooting an M16 - Ive shot both a 45 and and M16 fyi...

The Accurate Trait would best reflect sights and or superior methods of seeing down range - otherwise posture and human eye sight and training as factors are all universal...

Sure but on the flip side I'm not into creating Virtual Reality - thus an amount of pulp goes into my decision to omit valued ranges

OK outside of your personal preferences / gaming style is there anything you'd like to add that helps this along?

Range is what you can conceivably Touch - say a Barret 50 cal can hit you a mile or close to that away...

That Pistol example you give - I've covered that (i was trying to keep this simple but OK see below)

I come from a Cyberpunk background - a lot of those listed ranges in 40k are for battlefield engagements - lets bust out the minis and play!

Combat Advantage in my game allows for the Bonuses to hit derived from Point Blank, Immediate - sort of like "striking while the iron is hot" - those bonuses given are only active when target offers combat advantage to the attacker...

Back to MOVING FORWARD (theres a joke there son LOL)

Accuracy

Count the DoS for an AIM shot as by 5s instead of 10s FIN

i.e. just double the amount of Successes scored!

Since I play with RT's way of counting Successes - a Standard Success herein counts as a Single Success hit
(not doubled or that would be redundant / cheese)

Handling Burst / Full

By definition Burst Fire grants a +10% Bonus to Hit while Full Auto Fire grants +0%

Burst Fire by definition grants an additional hit for every two successes scored

Full Auto Fire grants an additional hit for every success

Both are Full Round Actions

Now to adjust to fit herein with DoS Damage model:

I used Step Values (2, 5, 9, 14, 20, 27, 35, 44, 54, 65; and so on)

If you look at my vales they gradually increase by STEP VALUES +3, +4, +5, +6, +7, +8, +9, +10; and so one

example; 20 minus 14 is 6 or step value of 6; 27 from 20 equals 7 and so one - that's the pattern above if you haven't figured it out...

OK Back to Rapid Fire

For every TWO Success Burst Fire inflicts Step Damage

Autogun S/3/10 2 DoS +3

Say I score a Four Success hit via Burst Fire; 2 x 4 = 8 + 3 = 11 damage PLUS (every two success hits)

Then +5 Step Damage (step value one = 2 points while step value two = 5 points and so on) = a Total of 16 Points of Damage for this 4 Success Burst

Now take that 16 and soak it from that total!

Full Auto (using the Augtogun)

Four Successes would equal Step Four value which is 14

Base damage in this case is again 11 (2 x 4 = 8 + 3 = 11)

14 + 11 = 25 Points of Damage for a Four Success Full Auto hit via an Autogun

For all of the people griping the game isn't deadly enough - this here could conceivably solve that issue...

STEP VALUES

Step ONE = 2

Step TWO = 5

Step THREE = 9

Step FOUR = 14

Step FIVE = 20

Step SIX = 27

Step SEVEN = 35

Step EIGHT = 44

Step NINE = 54

Step TEN = 65

I didn't see any gun that had a ROF over 10 for Full Auto sooo my values above reflect that...

That's it in total!

P.S. Step Values were first derived from Step Dice from the old Earthdawn Game - in my case I've opted to create static values instead of STEP DICE...

P.S.S. Good Luck scoring a TEN SUCCESS hit!

Righteous Fury

If you score a hit roll with double digit values from D100 (yes like the mechanics for psyker stuff)

Then increase the base Success Damage...

2 DoS +3 as per our Autogun example above

So if I score Righteous herein that base 2 becomes a 3 DoS!

That's it in total!

I like the idea, on the whole. I think you've got some things worked out nicely; I particularly like the elegance of how you propose to implement Righteous Fury.

Having said that...here's where I get critical.

1) Damage Values. Largely speaking, a "basic hit" of 1 DoS will rarely do anything with any but the biggest guns. Bolters, in particular need looking at. The "3 DoS" from a Bolter hitting you with a "glancing blow" of 1 DoS does 3 damage...not even enough to penetrate the Toughness Bonus of an average human! The "2 DoS+3" of a Lasgun won't penetrate Flak Armour with 1 DoS. I think these need to be higher, either the static modifier or the DoS multiplier; a basic hit should do something !

Worth bearing in mind is that you're moving from a range of 1-10 on a 1d10, to X/DoS. That's a significant shift. Also worth bearing in mind (and as you point out yourself) is that getting a large DoS is hard . Implementing a variable Max Damage could go a long way toward differentiating different weapons whilst limiting the ceiling on weaker ones.

For example; Las-weapons are notorious for being Reliable. This not only means that they don't break or jam, but could also mean that they do consistent damage. In your system, this would translate into a low X/DoS (it doesn't make a lot of difference where or how well you hit), a relatively high static modifier (to make them useful), but a low ceiling (to represent the fact that, on the whole, las-weapons aren't exactly high-end gear). e.g. Lasgun: 1/DoS+6(Max:13) . It'll slice through Flak Armour, but you've got to be a crack-shot to get the most out of it.

Conversely, a Shotgun doesn't do a great deal on a glancing blow, but a lot on a solid hit; high x/DoS, low modifier. e.g. Shotgun: 3/DoS+2(Max:17) . Flak Armour does wonders against glancing blows from this (as it should), but a well-aimed shot will still blow you off your feet. In addition, there's only so much accuracy you can get out of a shotgun (5 DoS = Max Damage, or 4 at Point Blank Range...see Scatter rules).

2) Burst Fire. These need reviewing. They're just too arcane. I've played Earthdawn and whilst I love the setting, the rules are incomprehensible and convoluted at the best of times. I wouldn't take inspiration from them for a houserule that's supposed to be simplifying things!

I'm not sure on how best to approach this topic, but I know it isn't the way you've done it. This one needs to go back to the drawing board. If I think of anything that might work, I'll let you know.

Hey Jolly,

Lets see if and what we can figure out together - I'm glad you read the system out and have constructive feedback we can work to progress of off!

The DoS Value Review

Breakdown (I think I'm good with the values as they stand - here's why)

I was just looking for something that would mathematically work (d10S are divisible by 5s - thus that concept of Five Successes nets you Max Damage)

Keep in mind though - raw shooting yes will result in alot of lowball damage that effectively does nothing (by default game design); but / tho factor in all the facets of play such as higher ground, improved grip, preysense, etc and what not - thats where the base values for low-skilled characters comes in - they need those options whereas that veteran doesn't...

GIST:

Low Skilled Characters must rely on a crutch (higher ground, preysense, whatever)

High Skilled Characters don't need a crutch

Back to damage - lets do Lasgun (since it every easy to remember its stats from the Core Book)

d10+3 or without other caveats 13 points of max damage

Lets though analyze dice damage:

d10+3

If/when I roll a 1 I then add base +3 = 4 (most lowball normalish people in the game range in Toughness soak from 2 to 3; i.e. 20 to 30 characteristic value)

If/when I roll a 1 I would then do 1 point of damage to an unarmored lowball target - and at max I'd do 2 (i.e. 4 - 2 = 2)

So what we need the new system to do is recreate that math as closely as possible

2 DoS +3

I roll 1 Success which in our little "homebrew" here; equals 2 points of damage then I add in the +3 to total 5 (so in our homebrew 5-points of damage has been established is minimum for Lasguns)

Back to lowball unarmored soak 2 to 3; well in this case I just did 3 to 2 points of damage

Back to Flak Vest - in the core it has a value of 3 AR

Lowball Target: Toughness Bonus ranging from 2 to 3 + Flak vest = 5 to 6 Soak

By default vanilla game standards - that's d10+3 damage code on 1, 2, and 3s is totally soaked (as per game design)

This isn't something I'm trying to fix nor address BTW - I felt that was fine how they did damage whereby alot of the time u soak it all

I discussed in another place on this forum the concept behind that / i.e. the Logic - they don't do a high hit point count like D&D or Palladium Games - instead FFG seemingly opted to make a game system where by (as far as I can tell) PCs and their foes SOAK damage in total about 20% to 33% of the time (no I didn't do the math curve on this - nor do I care too lol)

Granted it may not be for those looking to create a virtualized 40k experience (which by the way I do like)

Rather FFG gave us a game that glosses over a lot of details in lieu of Pulp Play

Gumshoe has a term for this; Purist vs. Pulp play styles

Purist accounts for all the crunchy details - sort of like a simulation

Pulp focuses easy to flow action / and conflict resolution

So my system - though as Ive stated in the Burst/Auto fire section can be more deadly (in that section you soak ONE BIG value rather than a whole bunch of smaller values)

Technically on the lowest damage spectrum my system does MORE minimum damage than the vanilla dice codes overall - Melta's do break that convention if you break down the math 6 DoS = max 30 min 6 - whereas dice coded Melta does 2d10+10 which gives us a min of 11...

Back to glancing blows - say I roll minimum damage with ANY weapon in the game; take the bolter with its mass reactive rounds - pretty nasty stuff

I discussed this too in the forums

No human takes a REAL glancing blow - this goes back to Pulp play - no body is taking it to the chest like a champ - I'm with you and everybody else on that 100%

If I roll Bolter damage and the target doesnt take any damage somehow and is a scrub or whatever - the GM could explain to the player how the round actually missed causing shrapnel to embed itself in the character's armor thus resulting in no damage...

If you read/act/and portray fictional devices such as lose mechanics as strictly whats written without the ability to extrapolate intelligently - you may be doing yourself a disservice and thusly be disappointed when looking into those finer details your after...

Learn not to be soo literal (as to be blind) in your dissection and outlay f the rules - some game systems call for this - I dont thing FFG did though!

Example; Magic the Gather Cards are meant to be literally taken to the letter of the word / it has no fluff whereby to support or detract from a card's unique ability - whatever that may be...

Burst / Auto FIRE

I was thinking originally of simplifying the Burst/Auto instead to just increase the base DoS value:

Example Autogun S/3/10 2 DoS +3

Burst would increase that Dos by Plus ONE per TWO Successes scored

Auto would increase that Dos by Plus ONE per Successes scored

Say I score a 4 success hit - 2 DoS + 3 now that damage becomes

3 DoS +3 if it was a Burst = 3 x 4 + 5 = 17 points of damage

5 DoS +3 if it was Full = 5 x 4 + 3 + 23 points of damage

Very very high - thus why I went with my Step Value approach instead (just add Step Value to the top and done)

Add my Righteous Fury to that and its even worst! LOL

Maybe you like it this way if so - try it out and let me know?

Moving on

Your mention of LAS Fire

I couldn't figure out your damage code - it does look very interesting to me please explain?

1/DoS+6

Is that "1" divided by Dos + 6?

P.S. I did address Las Weaponry on this post as to give em more "umft"

WEAPON TRAITS

Yeah I haven't even touched things like Scatter from Shotgun yet - just wanted to flesh out all the basics first then get into that jazz after

Please Post & Advise?

Morbid

Brainstorming Burst / Full Auto FIRE

Maybe instead of Step Values appended on the damage at the tail end we could do something instead - looking for an elegant simple house rule instead...

Here are the IDEAs I brainstormed and discussed with my Rules Lawyer (yes I retained an attorney at all times LMFAO)

Autogun S/3/10

I thought about just adding the Burst entry as extra damage per hit (+3 Damage per TWO Successes) / Full (+10 Damage per SINGLE Success)

Under that pretense it just be better to Full Auto all the time! (seems kinda broken / cheesey)

I would reverse to "Successing" for Multiple Shot Fire to;

Back to the top;

Autogun - Burst +3 Damage per SINGLE Success / Full +10 Damage per TWO Successes

That to me would "jive" but I felt was OP

I wasn't a big fan of handling it this way - though easy to remember / implement

I will keep posting ideas until we can come up with something together or otherwise?

Morbid

Hmm...I hadn't actually considered that a certain percentage of hits are intended to be completely soaked by Toughness and/or armour. It just seemed to me that a hit should do something rather than nothing (unless you've got super-armour on, like Power Armour or Terminator Armour).

I still think that using DoS as the base for the amount of damage gives you greater leeway to differentiate weapons and a large part of that will depend on changing the maximum damage potential and well as the damage per DoS and static modifier.

On my notation, the Lasgun was "1 damage per DoS, plus 6" (minimum 7, maximum 13) and the Shotgun would be "3 damage per DoS, plus 2" (minimum 5, maximum 17...though having said that, perhaps the Scatter rule would also increase the max damage for point blank, which would make the "base" maximum 14).

I think the special rules should probably stay roughly the same, as much as possible. For example, Scatter gives +10% to hit and +3 damage at point blank range; this seems to fit well enough into our new system.

On Auto/Semi-Auto fire: Something to bear in mind, which I think both your proposed methods ignore, is that the extra hits it generates can be applied to multiple targets. Whatever system we end up using has to incorporate this notion, otherwise it takes away a large part of the point of the weapons capable of this action. One thing to note is that the damage of weapons that are only capable of Full-Auto is not significantly higher than that of "smaller" weapons, implying that a "hit" from them isn't significantly more damaging. The extra "hits" generated by a semi or full auto burst could literally just be that; calculate damage as normal, but do it more than once. Against a single opponent, it would make burst-fire stupendously damaging in some cases, but is that something we should be uncomfortable with?

Take a Heavy Stubber. On your table, it deals "2 Dos+4" damage on a hit. With 1 DoS, it does just that; 6 damage and a lot of wasted ammo; barely even a scratch for most foes. Nothing to shout about. With 2 Dos, it does 8 damage, twice. Against two opponents, this is still not much to shout about, but equally, against one opponent, if we calculate each "hit" separately that 8 damage still isn't a huge amount after you've deducted Toughness and Armour. It's not really until we get to 4 DoS, where we're dealing 12 damage per hit four times, that we're really looking at one-shot kills, even against mooks. Take out Toughness (3) and armour (say 2) and each hit is still only doing 7 damage. Against 4 mooks this might take them all down. Against 2 guys, reasonably tough, it probably takes them down, but might not. Against a single enemy it will almost certainly wreck their day; two shots to deplete their Wounds and two rounds of Critical Damage on top is enough to take out most normal BBEG humans...but shouldn't a well aimed burst of full-auto against one guy do just that? Getting more than 4 DoS is a rarity reserved for professional marksmen.

Let me do Heavy Stubber here as I first did Burst / Full Auto originally with the Step Values...

H. Stubber | -/-/8 | 2 DoS +4

Full Auto with a Four Success Hit:

2 x 4 + 4 = 12

Now to calculate how many hits...

(One hit per Success as per the default core rules)

4 Hits / 4 bullets Miss

Now add Step Value #4 (2, 5, 9, 14 )

12 base damage plus 14 step value damage equals 26 damage the target has to Soak in one Hit!
(fluff wise 4 rounds hit - if/when splitting hairs or just plain narrating)

Apply Toughness (3) and AR 2 = 5 total Soak

26 - 5 = 19 damage

Very Lethal!

Let me do Burst Fire here (even though the gun can't do it - let's give it a vale of "4" for sake of conversation)

-/4/8

Burst Fire with a Four Success Hit:

2 x 4 +4 = 12

Now to calculate how many hits...

(One hit per Two Success as per the default core rules)

2 Hits / 2 Misses

Now add Step Value #4 (2, 5 , 9, 14)

12 base damage plus 5 step value damage equals 17 damage the target has to Soak in one Hit!
(fluff wise 2 rounds hit - if/when splitting hairs or just plain narrating)

Apply Toughness (3) and AR 2 = 5 total Soak

17 - 5 = 12 damage

Very lethal again to a single target...

Keep in mind my proposed system was never meant to facilitate the exactitude of precision simulated hits - again I remain as in what I felt was FFG's style of pulp or purism in accordance to the combat present raw vanilla in the book. I am opting to go Pulp and stay with that - though if you want to adjust what I have here by all means - but I will continue to hone and correct herein on this post as to keep the h.rules set together in one place.

Earlier my example and or joke being - according to fluff if most of our characters took a Bolter Round <no one taking it to the chest like a champ> to the chest we'd be dead? (excluding power armor and heavy non power variants of course - but that's not the point).

The key thing herein is the summing of that multi hit damage into one single gross sum by which to test again using soak - that's it in a nutshell

As per the missed "rounds"

Back to our H. Stubber

-/-/8 (p.s. we gave it for conversation's sake a vale of 4)

Full Auto got 4 hits / 4 misses

Either go raw vanilla from here - they do have rules for Stay Fire (tho I don't like them) PAGE 227 "Stray Shots" Upper Right Hand Corner

From this point onward I opt to do this

To me I can both remember this system for Stray Fire on the Fly + its quick for me to implement...

Specifics of Play for this to work with new damage coding based off of DoS as herein

I'd take the maximum damage list per 5 DoS for the weapon at hand and multiple that by the number of Misses

At our example way above by now lol - our base damage for that 4 success hit (before apply auto fire step value damage) was at 12

14 x 4 (Misses) = 56% Full Auto

14 x 2 (Misses) = 28% Burst Fire

But if done by the actual damage by DoS - these values change to

12 x 4 (Misses) = 48% Full Auto

12 x 2 (Misses) = 24% Burst Fire

Roll to hit as GM - for each Success a down range or adjacent target is hit... (i.e. innocent bystander lol)

Now you have to determine how many possible adjacent or down range targets could actually get hit

Now divide the number of possible target by a d10

If not absolutely divisible in whole numbers - assign more numbers (i.e. dice facets) to those targets the GM would deem more likely to be hit in this scenario

Example: 3 targets / d10

Closed or most prone or in the way target gets 1,2,3,4 on d10

the other two guys get 5,6,7 and 8,9,10

(dividing up is easier in D&D due to the variant of dice types like d42, d6, d8, you get the idea)

I do understand the confusion and or complexity of utilizing a Step Value system but even that I didn't think was unintiuitive or difficult in and of itself if you keep adding one more to the next value as explained before

2, 5, 9, 14, 20, 27, 35, 44, 54, 65

2 to 5 is a difference of 3

5 to 9 is a difference of 4

9 to 14 is a difference of 5

and so on - or just print out the numbers or keep them handy if doing the math is too slow

I will keep working at replacing this though for you guys with other ideas - I just wanted to go over in final the Step Value method - I will end mentioning it further from here on and just work on a different way of doing it witl the DoS Damage Option here as a whole.

Stay GAMING

Morbid

Things that offset a low BS in a system that's using the DoS Damage herein

Aiming +10 (Half) or +20 (Full) bonus to character’s next attack.

Standard Attack +10 to WS or BS, make one melee or ranged attack.

Accurate This grants an additional bonus of +10 to the firer’s Ballistic Skill when used with an Aim action, in addition to the normal bonus granted from Aiming

Custom Grip performed receives a +5 to Ballistic Skill or Weapon Skill when wielding the weapon

Motion predictor adds a +10 bonus to any Ballistic Skill test made as part of a Semi-Auto Burst or Full Auto Burst action.

Red-Dot a +10 bonus to Ballistic Skill tests when firing a single shot.

Targeter If there is a final penalty to a Ballistic Skill test when using a weapon with a targeter, it is reduced by ten. Thus, a Very Hard (–30) final penalty to hit becomes Hard (–20) for example.

Hand-held Targeter a Half Action to grant another character +20 bonus to his next Ballistic Skill test when firing a weapon with the Indirect quality.

Point-Blank Shot; Ballistic Skill tests made to attack a target at this range gain a +30 bonus

Short Range; Point-Blank Shot; Ballistic Skill tests made to attack a target at this range gain a +10 bonus

Stunned; Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill tests to attack Stunned targets gain a +20 bonus

Unaware Targets; Weapon Skill or Ballistic Skill tests made to attack Unaware targets gain a +30 bonus.

This was everything I could find in regards to BS Bonuses in the book...

I appreciate the effort you've put into your "stray shots" rules, but you're still missing the key element that a Full-Auto or Semi-Auto Burst can intentionally hit multiple targets. By-the-book, after calculating the number of extra hits, you can choose to assign those extra hits to targets within 2m of the original target as long as they're not harder to hit than the original. Your step-damage version doesn't account for this.

Another thing that concerns me is that I'm not convinced using the step-damage method of resolving additional hits as bonus damage rather than individual hits properly reflects the impact that TB and Armour are supposed to have against weight of fire. The Rulebook assumes that TB and Armour will apply to each hit individually, making high TB and good armour very effective against rapid-fire weapons and less effective against single-shot, high-damage weapons like meltas, sniper rifles and plasma weapons. Your step-damage method lumps both categories (rapid-fire and single-shot) into the same pot, making armour equally effective against both. This, I think, is an oversight.

A low-power, rapid-fire weapon like an Autopistol should rattle off Power Armour with little to no effect (outside of very peculiar circumstances). Using your rules an Autopistol (2 Dos+2 damage) vs. Light Power Armour (AP:7) will wreck the occupant with 4 DoS on Full-Auto. It only deals marginally less damage than the Heavy Stubber! Does that seems right to you?

Autopistol : 2x4+2+19=29 damage, minus 7AP -3TB=19 penetrating damage

Heavy Stubber : 2x4+4+19=31 damage, minus (7-3)AP -3TB=24 pentrating damage

If you use a "calculate each hit individually" method (as the Rulebook does), then the Autopistol doesn't look quite so good:

Autopistol : 2x4+2=10 damage per hit, minus 7AP -3TB= 0 penetrating damage per hit = 0 damage total

Heavy Stubber : 2x4+4=12 damage per hit, minus (7-3)AP -3TB = 5 penetrating damage per hit = 20 damage total

The Autopistol need Righteous Fury or 5 DoS to even do anything to someone in Power Armour under the latter method. Under your method, the poxy Autopistol is barely distinguishable from a beefy Heavy Stubber because the Step-damage method is a static damage bonus that doesn't account for the relative power of the weapon being fired. Heck, a Storm Bolter barely does more damage and it's supposed to be a rapid-fire mini-rocket launcher!

Food for thought?

That's the rub! (totally overlooked)

Full-Auto or Semi-Auto Burst can intentionally hit multiple targets

Duh - OK let me digest this and figure something out - hopefully lol...

Basically area attack (I always default to D&D thinking/speak sorry lol)

I'm on this today Jolly!

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As per the Brust/Full fire modes being extra deadly vs. say Power Armor or the lesser - this was intentional (i.e. school of Cyberpunk)...

The inbuilt foil for doing either action (burst/full) comes with caveats like the -10 BS for Full Auto plus wastes lots of ammo.

If your strictly keeping ammo in check (what is it 2 clips per gun by default) - that be two sprays with Full plus whats in the gun for 3 goes then done (in built foil)

Burst may be double that so instead we'd be looking at 6 goes till empty (in gist)

Summing the damage was meant to give those weapons with these firing modes the ability to punch, eat away, whittle, or otherwise be very effective against soft or hard targets...

The goal herein was to simplify the system so that (at least for me - 1 roll does it all)

I understand the vision of "bullets" bouncing off of power armor - doesnt mean I agree with it - unlike a tank - armor has joints and is a moving articulated piece of machinery - the more moving parts the more like something will break (basic mechanics - I was an Air Force Crew Chief so that's were that comes from)

Now lets support that rationale in keep with the way I've appended abstract Value Damage to the top...

In games like Rifts there is a concept known as MDC (mega damage capacity) as opposed to (SDC - think normal hit points)

In Rifts things with MDC are never damaged by SDC based weapons (i.e. normal human guns, swords, etc - think "scale")

MDC can only be harmed by MDC weapons in that game...

Back to us; if your focus really begins and stops at the power armor issue - then I would deem Power Armor immune to Step Value Damage - in essence immunity to small arms rapid fire...

Otherwise apply 1 wound per hit rather than the step value damage to represent "bullets" bouncing off.

This is getting into the realm of actual science / physics - my opinion being land lots of rounds into hard target - it begins to crumble, but that's me!

FOUR SUCCESS HIT:

Autopistol : 2x4+2+14=24 damage, minus 7AP -3TB=14 penetrating damage

Heavy Stubber : 2x4+4+14=26 damage, minus (7-3)AP -3TB=19 penetrating damage

Step VALUE Four = 14

I opt to keep it as a whole sum of damage - until I either see or figure out something as elegant that goes into the ONE single roll

Just to reiterate in essence - vanilla did in the example Auto Pistol = 0 total damage for Full Auto and 5 damage in four individual hits totaling 20 points for the H. Stubber...

I am digesting this all in open - is all!

Keep in mind if your fluff or expectation from it is derived from the works of either of these authors then I have no intrest what so ever in recreating "their" vision of whats what...

Matt Ward

C.S. Grotto

Just confirm with me before I take the time out to proceed that those expectations whereby bullets almost always bounce off of power armor didn't come from either of this outstanding authors above...

If this is just plain all around common consensus amongst the community herein then I will continue to tool this to best fit that expectation - I don't mean to be soo harsh in tone to you Jolly - its just that Ive come across people who will make u spin their wheels solely for them and only them - something I'm not about

All I need is from the people - "yeah we all expect bullets should bounce heavy and or power armor" off FIN (forgive is Heavy Armor is not intended) - just point me into the course-winds yall!

Morbid

Back to Spray (Burst/Full Auto) vs. Multiple Targets

As per Jolly - he pointed out that the game by default allows for targets to be purposefully hit in a "spray" attack:

"hits to targets within 2m of the original target as long as they're not harder to hit than the original"

That to me sounds like alot of fun - so here we go!

Take my rules thus far - calculate your damage as if for the ONE single target ( DoS + Step Value based of # of Successes) then divided that number amongst the number of viable targets present...

Example (from above FOUR Success Hit):

FOUR SUCCESS HIT vs. THREE Targets (Full Auto - one hit per success )

Autopistol : 2x4+2+14=24 damage, minus 7AP -3TB=14 penetrating damage

Heavy Stubber : 2x4+4+14=26 damage, minus (7-3)AP -3TB=19 penetrating damage

Step VALUE Four = 14 (2, 5, 9, 14 , 20, 27, 35, 44, 54, 65)

14 "penetrating" damage (or Total Damage as I call it)

- Take the 24 Damage from Autopistol and divide it evenly to each separate target

(24 / 3 = 8 damage each before soak)

- Take the 26 Damage from H. Stubber and apply it separately to each target to soak

(26 / 3 = 8 to the 2nd/3rd targets while the primary takes 10 damage)

Math: 10 + 8 + 8 = 26 ( I'd apply any "remainders" from doing division to the primary target )

That's it in essence - no additional rolls or anything needed!

Have Fun!

Morbid

Abstraction = that's the word I was looking for prior to describe my theme herein in the presentation of said rules...

I'm afraid there is no golden bullet for the more nuanced concepts unless like Jolly pointed out the whole of it all is overhauled - either its handle simply or complexly

Take my rules thus far - calculate your damage as if for the ONE single target ( DoS + Step Value based of # of Successes) then divided that number amongst the number of viable targets present...

This is all well and good, but how it this any less complex than simply taking the base damage (which you're working out anyway) and applying it multiple times, whether to a single target or multiple targets? Using your "step" method, you're adding in an extra piece of calculation. In addition, there's the added complication of the "rounding errors" having to be accounted for.

Your Method

1) Roll to hit

2) Calculate "base" damage

3) Add Step

4) Divide total by number of targets

5) Deduct TB+AP

My method

1) Roll to hit

2) Calculate "base" damage

3) Allocate hits

4) Deduct TB+AP from each hit.

It's the same number of rolls each time (one), but the calculation on the latter method is simpler (no rounding, less steps) and also falls in line with the current model that TB+AP applies to each hit, rather than the whole burst being treated as a single damage total.

Also, under the current model, additional hits can be applied to both the original target and others. For example; if you get 3 DoS on a Full-Auto burst, you can choose to apply two hits to the original target and the third to a separate one. With your system, do you want to start fiddling around with "well two thirds of the damage go to the original target and one third to the separate one?" How does the "rounding" apply in that case?

Further, those additional hits against the same target can apply to different hit locations; if the first hits a Leg, then the third hit against that target applies to the Body. Your system fails to recognise this rule as well.

I don't mean to come off as too critical; I get that you've put thought into this. It's just that I can't help thinking that this whole step damage thing, whilst a good initial idea, is one of those ones that the more you think about it in relation to the rules as they stand, the more complex the interaction with those other rules is going to be if you're to preserve the nature of those other rules.

For instance; Amputator Shells add 2 to the weapons damage. For an Autopistol this represents a significant increase in damage output under the normal rules. With 6 DoS on a Full-Auto burst, that's an extra 12 damage. Impressive enough to ruin someones day. Under you rules, whether you take a single shot or full auto and regardless of DoS, that +2 is only ever going to be +2 and further, that +2 is insignificant compared to the extra damage you're getting out of doing a Full-Auto anyway. So why bother with Amputator Shells, which are Extremely Rare and hard to come by when you're doing pretty much the same damage without them? Likewise, the Mighty Shot Talent, adds (half BS Bonus) to damage per hit. This Talent is decidedly unimpressive for Burst shooters under your system, where under the rules as written it's a significant bonus.

If you want to change the rules for Amputator Shells or Mighty Shot, to a bonus per DoS for example, then you're getting in to the realm of changing all the rules to suit the houserule you implemented to "make things simpler"...at which point you're not making things simpler, your overcomplicating the entire system.

Not diggin too deep in yet...

So your suggesting we apply the damage to each target with no division off the top + no Step Value modifier

Just apply the prime total to each individually? (Sounds good but and without that added Step Value - an accept range of possible damage - menaing its nooot soo high as to break the game or being cheesey)

Your right - in that I didn't want to get more complex as you pointed out by having the initial summed damage divided

Today lets chalk this up to multitasking LOL I am making homerules while at work

I like your way better! (I'm like duh why didnt I thionk of that lol)

My method

1) Roll to hit

2) Calculate "base" damage

3) Allocate hits

4) Deduct TB+AP from each hit.

I will dig in deeper once I hear baq Jolly

Let me crunch Amputator Rounds ... (lost me here: With 6 DoS on a Full-Auto burst)

Autogun

s/3/10 * 2 DoS +3

These bullets are filled with explosive micro-shrapnel, shearing
flesh and shattering bone in each limb-tearing hit.

Effect: Amputator shells add 2 to the weapon’s damage.
Used With: Stub revolvers, stub automatics, shotguns (all types),
sniper rifles, hand cannons, autopistols, and autoguns.

2 DoS +5 (now with Amputator Rounds)

FOUR SUCCESS HIT = 2 X 4 = 8 + 5 = 13 Total + STEP VALUE of 14 = 27 in total really... (all the round did was make 25 into 27)

BTW this +2 increase was fine by me and the house rules I presented herein (they worked well) - not sure how your crunching math?

I will continue going over the details you just submitted - just want to make sure we were crunching the same numbers...

I like your way so CANCEL THIS thought - you present a good point!

Also, under the current model, additional hits can be applied to both the original target and others. For example; if you get 3 DoS on a Full-Auto burst, you can choose to apply two hits to the original target and the third to a separate one. With your system, do you want to start fiddling around with "well two thirds of the damage go to the original target and one third to the separate one?" How does the "rounding" apply in that case?

Further, those additional hits against the same target can apply to different hit locations; if the first hits a Leg, then the third hit against that target applies to the Body. Your system fails to recognise this rule as well.

Your right - I haven't account for that in the single roll thus far!

I will ponder this further!