I have been going back and forth over this. I feel as though Vader needs the engine upgrade for the extra maneuverability.

I am trying to figure out whether I want the engine upgrade and Zeta Leader(or Omega Leader w/VI) or just Omega Leader w/Juke, Comm Relay and no engine upgrade on Vader. What does everyone think?

What else is in the list?

I use Vader a lot. Believe me, without EU you'll probably take an extra 1 or 2 rounds more to catch SLAMming Miranda and Poe / Corran. Those extra rounds are more than enough for their TLT support ships to chow down your Vader to bits.

PS11 Vader is an ace hunter. Top end. He needs EU to do his job.

If you're not putting Engine on him, may as well use Accuracy Corrector and Juke. That turns him into an uber defensive workhorse, which isn't the best thing ever but it's better than wasting actions on target locks against specific foes then fiddling with any blank dice you may roll.

I have been going back and forth over this. I feel as though Vader needs the engine upgrade for the extra maneuverability.

I am trying to figure out whether I want the engine upgrade and Zeta Leader(or Omega Leader w/VI) or just Omega Leader w/Juke, Comm Relay and no engine upgrade on Vader. What does everyone think?

I have been going back and forth over this. I feel as though Vader needs the engine upgrade for the extra maneuverability.

I am trying to figure out whether I want the engine upgrade and Zeta Leader(or Omega Leader w/VI) or just Omega Leader w/Juke, Comm Relay and no engine upgrade on Vader. What does everyone think?

You fly Vader with VI, EU, and Prockets with a 3 point initiative bid (at least) and force your opponent to move first.

Then you can shove a procket anywhere you'd like. This game is all about having higher pilot skill and boosting last (not about predicting your opponent), so just do that OP.

What else is in the list?

Palpmobile and Wampa

Seems to me like you should be able to add it easily with that list. You could throw in EU and another ship.

Lol - just reread initial post.

with! arc dodging helps him a lot

What else is in the list?

Palpmobile and Wampa

In that build I like having engine on vader, it gives you double action arc dodger. If soontir or an inquisitor is around your opponent will probably be able to get vader either way, so you don't benefit from more points into him.

Alternative view. Tie advanceds get 4 green maneuvers. Stress makes your super predictable even with the ability barrel roll and boost.

Tie mk2 is easily worth it in a stress meta if you don't have points for an engine upgrade.

For what it's worth, the top Vader at Worlds didn't have engine upgrade.

I often fly him without and as others have said, it is only with Engine and VI that he is the ace of aces and knife fighter extraordinaire.

That doesn't mean you can fly him without it, it just means you have to adjust your playing style.

Here's a few examples,

Juke, Acc. Corrector Vader is surprisingly tough to kill, and still does good damage vs most targets, he prefers to slow roll around rocks or hugging the R3 range band. And he can even arc-dodge via barrel roll in a pinch.

Then there's the Predator, ATC variant, he loves to flank via 5 fwrd, hard turning in and staying at R3 to 2.

VI ATC vader is a bit of an oddball but is perfectly viable vs PS 10 Poes and the Whispers of the world, etc. He is dirt cheap for what he does and only needs to maintain wide arcs. The rest of the list needs to be threatening enough to draw fire from him however as he can be focus fired if you are not careful.

For what it's worth, the top Vader at Worlds didn't have engine upgrade.

I kinda paraphrased Jeramys explaination above, but if soontir is around vader becomes the easier target, he'll go down with or without engine.

I've flown that list at a couple of tournaments and made the top 8 (of 55 players) in the local store champs.

Vader VI ATC X1

Omega Leader Juke Coms Relay

Wampa

Omicron Grp Plt Palps

The strength of list is you have a massive threat in OL and Wampa which covers for Vader being flown a little more conservatively and still manages to push damage through on aces.

There really isn't any fat in the list to trim to squeeze an EU in on Vader.

I don't think EU is necessary, but makes his final position a lot more unpredictable. The Advanced really doesn't have a great dial. EU can makes up for that. If you have enough other things in the list that are scarier, then you can probably get away with EU. But if you don't, Vader will likely be the first target and without EU, there isn't much he can do about it.

If you don't go Engine, 1pt for MKII is great. The advanced dial was it's second biggest handicap after red dice. That hasn't changed, the red dice are just reliable now and without EU or MKII the dial still isn't great.

So, is Omega Leader and Wampa with the Palpmobile enough threat to run Vader without engine?

I WANT to fly Vader without EU (as there is a lot I can do with that 4 points in a list), but I'm never as successful without it. The version of Vader I have the most success with is:

Vader (36)+LW+ATC+EU

I run him as a flanker on the opposite side of the rest of my fleet. This Vader pairs well with Soontir, Whisper, Omega Leader, or the soon to be released Inquisitor. The duel ace and Palpmobile is a great list, but not the only way to do it.

Darth Vader: Lone Wolf, Engine Upgrade, Advanced Targeting Computer (36)

The Inquisitor: Push the Limit, XX-23 S-thread Tracers, TIE/v1, Autothrusters (32)

Soontir Fel: Push the Limit, Autothrusters (32)

Perhaps you'd rather have Stealth Device on Soontir, than PTL on The Inquisitor? This list can be rearanged a few different ways, but it is the one I'm most looking forward to flying!

So, is Omega Leader and Wampa with the Palpmobile enough threat to run Vader without engine?

I got taken to task by this list recently. I've played 20 tournament matches this year and until that match-up, I didn't feel that my list had any significant weaknesses.

I'm running a two ship list, which Omega Leader is devastating to, and one of my ships is Vader with EU, to whom Wampa and OL are both very real threats. Normally my lack of guns isn't that huge a detriment, but against this list...ouch.

All that being said, enemy's PS11 Vader with ATC and no Engine was the weakest part of that list, by far. Wasn't able to get himself into combat quickly enough when he had to reposition, went down fairly hard when attacked...just not that great. Made me consider the list as a whole more than I had, but try to figure out what I'd rather do with that 31 points. I think Vader with Accuracy Corrector and Juke is a solid answer, as may be Carnor Jax with PtL and Autothrusters.

Skip PS11 Vader with no EU though, imo. Unless Phantoms are really big in your area and you really need that high PS shot before cloaking devices go up. Even so, Omega Leader can probably take the phantom.

I have thought of this list:

Vader

-VI

-ATC

-Engine

Omega lead

-Juke/Comms

Zeta Lead

-Juke/Comms

Wampa

Basically replaces Palpmobile with Zeta Leader, using the extra points for the engine on Vader. Lose the automatic proc of Wampa, but likely worth it to upgrade Vader.

Running him without engine gives you much less range control as barrel roll doesn't do much for crossing bands. Given that Vader is already vaguely allergic to tlt due to lack of thrusters I think having engine to change the range band is pretty important.

Also, I'm not PGS so I'm not going to grossly oversimplify the complexity of the game but if you're flying an imperial ace repositioning is too important to cut out of your build since you usually can't be as tanky or resilient as rebel aces like r2d2 Poe or Corran.

Basically replaces Palpmobile with Zeta Leader, using the extra points for the engine on Vader. Lose the automatic proc of Wampa, but likely worth it to upgrade Vader.

Zeta Leader is a fine substitute in this list, but for Vader, not Palpatine. Zeta Leader with Comm Relay and Predator is very solid for 26pts, offensively and defensively. Even leaves you 5 points to work with.

Palpatine makes this list sing. OL and Wampa would be very sad without the space pope.

I have been running him with Engines since I started running the list. I totally see the reasons to go with other upgrades but for me, the additional movements and ability to arc doge that Engine provides made it worth it to me and my play style.

Results may vary due to player skill and play style.

I don't play him myself, but I can tell you I always breath a sigh of relief when I play against him without a EU.

What about replacing Vader with a PTL + AT Carnor? It would give you more mobility and a very good tool to fight off TLTs.