Just leaving this post here to see everyone's reaction once they realize they're still better off not taking ordinance...

Dunno if you're proxied guidance chimps at all but if so then you'd realize ordnance is coming. Whether pure alpha strike lists will be good or not is unclear but sticking a concussion missile or proton torpedo on a mook suddenly gives them 4 hits almost every time and suddenly that burst is worth 4 points.

Just leaving this post here to see everyone's reaction once they realize they're still better off not taking ordinance...

Dunno if you're proxied guidance chimps at all but if so then you'd realize ordnance is coming. Whether pure alpha strike lists will be good or not is unclear but sticking a concussion missile or proton torpedo on a mook suddenly gives them 4 hits almost every time and suddenly that burst is worth 4 points.

The meta is going to change. When people realize that their Decimator can be one volleyed off the board twice over by quad HM Chip/LRS Extra Munitions Bombers, and that Soontir can be wiped somewhat easily with the same ships, the meta is going to change.

The thing about ordnance, especially the triple U-boat list is that you have so many of the problems with ordnance fixed at once. So you basically have HLC's on these things that are better than HLC's. The people that don't think ordnance will make a significant change in the meta don't realize that Homing Missiles for example are better HLC's provided you have the TL.

Proton Torpedoes are better HLC's if you use Deadeye to fix the low PS TL acquisition problem, you use R4 Agromech to fix the unmodified dice problem, Proton Torps already convert a free focus to a crit, guidance chips further fix the unmodified dice problem, and extra munitions fixes the problem of them being expensive/only having one of them.

So why would 3 Jumpmasters be "Good" let alone "dominant"?

The only list I've seen mentioned in this thread is "3x Contracted Scout with Deadeye, R4 Agromech, Chimps, EM and Plasma/Proton Torps," Assuming Proton Torps that list is 102 Points...

Wild Space Fringer is very comparable if not almost identical to the Contracted Scout in principal and 3 of them never sees play.

So why?

So why would 3 Jumpmasters be "Good" let alone "dominant"?

The only list I've seen mentioned in this thread is "3x Contracted Scout with Deadeye, R4 Agromech, Chimps, EM and Plasma/Proton Torps," Assuming Proton Torps that list is 102 Points...

Wild Space Fringer is very comparable if not almost identical to the Contracted Scout in principal and 3 of them never sees play.

So why?

A contracted scout with a 4 red dice attack, R4 and Guidance Chips has about a 75% chance of getting 4 hits. With deadeye it can choose its target late and doesn't have to worry about getting a target lock. The bottom line is that it needs only a single action to have a very potent, modified attack, and won't suffer from having to declare a target despite its low PS. Add to that, it can have crew that further gives it benefits against aces and is on an incredibly durable platform and I have no doubt it will be the most frequently seen ship after Wave 8 releases.

I plan on running 2 of the 33pt Torpedo Scouts alongside Trandoshan Slaver w/ Greedo, Boba, and Dengar (34 pt).

I really like it in my testing.

So why would 3 Jumpmasters be "Good" let alone "dominant"?

The only list I've seen mentioned in this thread is "3x Contracted Scout with Deadeye, R4 Agromech, Chimps, EM and Plasma/Proton Torps," Assuming Proton Torps that list is 102 Points...

Wild Space Fringer is very comparable if not almost identical to the Contracted Scout in principal and 3 of them never sees play.

So why?

A contracted scout with a 4 red dice attack, R4 and Guidance Chips has about a 75% chance of getting 4 hits. With deadeye it can choose its target late. The bottom line is that it needs only a single action to have a very potent, modified attack, and won't suffer from having to declare a target despite its low PS. Add to that, it can have crew that further gives it benefits against aces and is on an incredibly durable platform and I have no doubt it will be the most frequently seen ship after Wave 8 releases.

And that's not counting the free focus to crit conversion that Proton Torps give you.

At the end of the day it also has a turret. It's only 2 dice, but range one is easy to get with a large base and that's nothing to scoff at.

Oh yeah, another thing. One of its 2 distance Segnor's Loops is white. Meaning that if something is about to get behind you, you can just do one of those and focus and still launch your torps.

So why would 3 Jumpmasters be "Good" let alone "dominant"?

The only list I've seen mentioned in this thread is "3x Contracted Scout with Deadeye, R4 Agromech, Chimps, EM and Plasma/Proton Torps," Assuming Proton Torps that list is 102 Points...

It's 2 plasma and 1 proton. 100 points exactly.

So why would 3 Jumpmasters be "Good" let alone "dominant"?

The only list I've seen mentioned in this thread is "3x Contracted Scout with Deadeye, R4 Agromech, Chimps, EM and Plasma/Proton Torps," Assuming Proton Torps that list is 102 Points...

Wild Space Fringer is very comparable if not almost identical to the Contracted Scout in principal and 3 of them never sees play.

So why?

A contracted scout with a 4 red dice attack, R4 and Guidance Chips has about a 75% chance of getting 4 hits. With deadeye it can choose its target late. The bottom line is that it needs only a single action to have a very potent, modified attack, and won't suffer from having to declare a target despite its low PS. Add to that, it can have crew that further gives it benefits against aces and is on an incredibly durable platform and I have no doubt it will be the most frequently seen ship after Wave 8 releases.

And that's not counting the free focus to crit conversion that Proton Torps give you.

At the end of the day it also has a turret. It's only 2 dice, but range one is easy to get with a large base and that's nothing to scoff at.

Oh yeah, another thing. One of its 2 distance Segnor's Loops is white. Meaning that if something is about to get behind you, you can just do one of those and focus and still launch your torps.

Yep, all of what I mentioned was before looking at its dial AND the fact that it has a turret. I mean, this is clearly the best platform for munitions by far to date and it will still get a shot when its not pointing at its target.

So why would 3 Jumpmasters be "Good" let alone "dominant"?

The only list I've seen mentioned in this thread is "3x Contracted Scout with Deadeye, R4 Agromech, Chimps, EM and Plasma/Proton Torps," Assuming Proton Torps that list is 102 Points...

Wild Space Fringer is very comparable if not almost identical to the Contracted Scout in principal and 3 of them never sees play.

So why?

why would you assume protons when you have plasma?

more importantly, the fringer is far more overpriced than the scout. The scout loses a hull (the horror) and costs 5 points less

even better, we're getting 4lom which is just dumb dumb dumb with all those super accurate 4 dice

So why would 3 Jumpmasters be "Good" let alone "dominant"?

The only list I've seen mentioned in this thread is "3x Contracted Scout with Deadeye, R4 Agromech, Chimps, EM and Plasma/Proton Torps," Assuming Proton Torps that list is 102 Points...

It's 2 plasma and 1 proton. 100 points exactly.

You could also play around with the points a little and make one carry Flechette Torpedoes to save a point to fit Boba Crett in.

Concussion missiles are quite a bit better than torpedoes and they have cheaper platforms. I think Zswarm with tracer Blount is quite a bit better.

So why would 3 Jumpmasters be "Good" let alone "dominant"?

The only list I've seen mentioned in this thread is "3x Contracted Scout with Deadeye, R4 Agromech, Chimps, EM and Plasma/Proton Torps," Assuming Proton Torps that list is 102 Points...

Wild Space Fringer is very comparable if not almost identical to the Contracted Scout in principal and 3 of them never sees play.

So why?

why would you assume protons when you have plasma?

more importantly, the fringer is far more overpriced than the scout. The scout loses a hull (the horror) and costs 5 points less

even better, we're getting 4lom which is just dumb dumb dumb with all those super accurate 4 dice

Auf wiedersehen Soontir.

*slowly waves hand back and forth on deck of U-Boat, watches enemy ship sink into the cold black water*

Yeah, the jumpmaster has a very efficient base (it is the main saving grace of the 12 pt title) combined with the perfect storm ordance setup Deadeye, R4, EM, and GC all coming in at 33 points makes it an amazing alpha strike ship, and it is also competent once the torps are expended.

That said, it isnt the easiest list to fly. Managing 3 large bases while trying to get the perfect range for the opening engagement is tricky. And then getting your second torp off isnt the easiest thing to do either.

But, I think the presence of this squad will be pretty healthy for the meta as I think it is pretty favoured vs 4 tlt, while being able to hold its own vs aces.

Yeah, the jumpmaster has a very efficient base (it is the main saving grace of the 12 pt title) combined with the perfect storm ordance setup Deadeye, R4, EM, and GC all coming in at 33 points makes it an amazing alpha strike ship, and it is also competent once the torps are expended.

That said, it isnt the easiest list to fly. Managing 3 large bases while trying to get the perfect range for the opening engagement is tricky. And then getting your second torp off isnt the easiest thing to do either.

But, I think the presence of this squad will be pretty healthy for the meta as I think it is pretty favoured vs 4 tlt, while being able to hold its own vs aces.

Deadeye makes launching the torps super easy. Just focus and you're good.

It's a step above quad TLT, quad Autoblaster Warden, Double Decimator, and triple TLT K-Wing in ease of use. A little easier than your average Joustwing ship, and with Deadeye easier than Z's or other low PS ships that have to fire their ordnance with TL.

if it uses ordnance and arc, it cannot be easier to use than TLTs or pwts

sure, you can fall back on your crappy 2 dice primary, but then you have to remember that it's a crappy two dice primary. The vast majority of your punch is in the ordnance and in getting to your activation without having had to spend the focus

if it uses ordnance and arc, it cannot be easier to use than TLTs or pwts

sure, you can fall back on your crappy 2 dice primary, but then you have to remember that it's a crappy two dice primary. The vast majority of your punch is in the ordnance and in getting to your activation without having had to spend the focus

I'm not saying it's easier than quad TLT. Just that it's not going to be a very difficult to use squad, only taking moderately more skill than turret based lists.

if it uses ordnance and arc, it cannot be easier to use than TLTs or pwts

sure, you can fall back on your crappy 2 dice primary, but then you have to remember that it's a crappy two dice primary. The vast majority of your punch is in the ordnance and in getting to your activation without having had to spend the focus

There's not much that a 9 hull 2 agility ship is going to have to spend its focus to worry about besides maybe higher PS ordnance. Because of its hitting power, it's actually the other way around. The ships shooting at it are going to have to consider keeping their own focus for defense since they may be eating some very accurate torpedoes.

I'm not saying they will be super easy to use, but I think you'll see people learning very quickly.

9 health, 2 agility isn't exactly the stuff of legends here especially with unmodified dice

sure, you might not lose one a turn ala a TLT Y (which, incidentally, should be no contest for this list), except against other ordnance which may or may not become a thing given chips. Still, PS 3 is below even the crackswarm you can certainly eat enough damage to only be able to fire a single torpedo before going down in flames

compile this with arc-dodging, really wimpy PWTs, and the glut of defensive tech possible with the likes of palp aces, and you really have to stress the ability to concentrate fire with those lovely torpedoes in order to not get run over.

they're also very action dependent (keep an eye out for fat ass + obstacle love) and cannot arc-dodge/reposition while firing their torpedo on the same turn

it may not be a tie swarm, but it's nowhere near the ballpark of your typical PWT

9 health, 2 agility isn't exactly the stuff of legends here especially with unmodified dice

sure, you might not lose one a turn ala a TLT Y (which, incidentally, should be no contest for this list), except against other ordnance which may or may not become a thing given chips. Still, PS 3 is below even the crackswarm you can certainly eat enough damage to only be able to fire a single torpedo before going down in flames

compile this with arc-dodging, really wimpy PWTs, and the glut of defensive tech possible with the likes of palp aces, and you really have to stress the ability to concentrate fire with those lovely torpedoes in order to not get run over.

they're also very action dependent (keep an eye out for fat ass + obstacle love) and cannot arc-dodge/reposition while firing their torpedo on the same turn

it may not be a tie swarm, but it's nowhere near the ballpark of your typical PWT

I don't actually care whether or not it is complicated to operate, and I'm not sure why that's even relevant -- I was pointing out that I don't think it keeping its focus is going to be a problem for the purposes of the alpha strike. People will learn to use them, and use them well, and I think they are going to be a dominant force in regionals. It may not be as the triple torpedo boats, but I think that two will do with something else attached, like a dedicated blocker to keep the space clear, etc...

Concussion missiles are quite a bit better than torpedoes

Concussion missiles are directly comparable to proton torpedoes. Same price, both spend a TL to fire. Concussion missiles change a blank to a hit, proton torpedoes change a focus to a crit. Both are 4 dice, range 2-3. I would argue that in a vacuum proton torpedoes are absolutely better. You have identical odds of rolling a focus or a blank, so unmodified getting a free crit > getting a free hit. If you have other modifiers, it depends on the ship and what modifiers you have. A blount swarm will have focus (if they haven't spend it on defense), so they get to change a blank to a hit, then all focuses to hits. A scout with deadeye and R4 will spend the focus to attack, then have a TL to reroll dice. 1 focus becomes a crit. Both presumably have guidance chips to change another blank to a hit (or a focus beyond the first for scout). Either are highly likely to have 4 hits, but the torpedoes are more likely to have at least 1 crit.

And scouts vs blount swarm, you'll probably kill at least 1 Z95 before it gets to fire due to higher PS, possibly more depending on rolls, since a scout could potentially 1-shot a Z with 4 hits if the z blanks out (OR 1 evade and a direct hit gets through on the crit from torpedoes). Meanwhile, the Zs need at least 3 missiles to kill a scout (unless the scout rolls 0 evades AND a direct hit gets through, or 2 direct hits if 2 evades are rolled).

Four JumpMasters NASCARing around the board...

I'd pay money to see that.

Well you kind of have to, who would buy 4 Jumpmasters

Note even me... and I bought 3.

Concussion missiles are quite a bit better than torpedoes

Concussion missiles are directly comparable to proton torpedoes. Same price, both spend a TL to fire. Concussion missiles change a blank to a hit, proton torpedoes change a focus to a crit. Both are 4 dice, range 2-3. I would argue that in a vacuum proton torpedoes are absolutely better. You have identical odds of rolling a focus or a blank, so unmodified getting a free crit > getting a free hit. If you have other modifiers, it depends on the ship and what modifiers you have. A blount swarm will have focus (if they haven't spend it on defense), so they get to change a blank to a hit, then all focuses to hits. A scout with deadeye and R4 will spend the focus to attack, then have a TL to reroll dice. 1 focus becomes a crit. Both presumably have guidance chips to change another blank to a hit (or a focus beyond the first for scout). Either are highly likely to have 4 hits, but the torpedoes are more likely to have at least 1 crit.

And scouts vs blount swarm, you'll probably kill at least 1 Z95 before it gets to fire due to higher PS, possibly more depending on rolls, since a scout could potentially 1-shot a Z with 4 hits if the z blanks out (OR 1 evade and a direct hit gets through on the crit from torpedoes). Meanwhile, the Zs need at least 3 missiles to kill a scout (unless the scout rolls 0 evades AND a direct hit gets through, or 2 direct hits if 2 evades are rolled).

Concussion missiles are quite a bit better than torpedoes

Concussion missiles are directly comparable to proton torpedoes. Same price, both spend a TL to fire. Concussion missiles change a blank to a hit, proton torpedoes change a focus to a crit. Both are 4 dice, range 2-3. I would argue that in a vacuum proton torpedoes are absolutely better. You have identical odds of rolling a focus or a blank, so unmodified getting a free crit > getting a free hit. If you have other modifiers, it depends on the ship and what modifiers you have. A blount swarm will have focus (if they haven't spend it on defense), so they get to change a blank to a hit, then all focuses to hits. A scout with deadeye and R4 will spend the focus to attack, then have a TL to reroll dice. 1 focus becomes a crit. Both presumably have guidance chips to change another blank to a hit (or a focus beyond the first for scout). Either are highly likely to have 4 hits, but the torpedoes are more likely to have at least 1 crit.

And scouts vs blount swarm, you'll probably kill at least 1 Z95 before it gets to fire due to higher PS, possibly more depending on rolls, since a scout could potentially 1-shot a Z with 4 hits if the z blanks out (OR 1 evade and a direct hit gets through on the crit from torpedoes). Meanwhile, the Zs need at least 3 missiles to kill a scout (unless the scout rolls 0 evades AND a direct hit gets through, or 2 direct hits if 2 evades are rolled).

In a match between the two the scouts will probably win due to multiple ps-kills. But against other lists the 5 Z's being able to more reliably get 4 hits makes them a bigger threat to aces. I've played against both lists quite a few times. The z-swarm is significantly more deadly against single-ace or double-ace lists. If these kinds of lists drive aces out of the meta the scouts will probably be better.

Haven't played agianst the z-swarm, but how is it more able to get 4 hits more reliably? Also, against high ps aces the z-swarm is marginally more vulnerable since if they managed to down blount bfeore he gets tracers off, it makes it way harder to get off your ordnance AND you'll be shooting it unmodified if you do. The scouts are self-sufficient.

I could happily run

3x Gold Squadron w/proton Torps, extra munitions, guidance chip and dorsal turret BTL.

Lt. Blount w/tracers, VI

That's 3 attacks at 4 dice at range 2-3, or 6 attacks with 3 dice at range 1.

Concussion missiles are quite a bit better than torpedoes

Concussion missiles are directly comparable to proton torpedoes. Same price, both spend a TL to fire. Concussion missiles change a blank to a hit, proton torpedoes change a focus to a crit. Both are 4 dice, range 2-3. I would argue that in a vacuum proton torpedoes are absolutely better. You have identical odds of rolling a focus or a blank, so unmodified getting a free crit > getting a free hit. If you have other modifiers, it depends on the ship and what modifiers you have. A blount swarm will have focus (if they haven't spend it on defense), so they get to change a blank to a hit, then all focuses to hits. A scout with deadeye and R4 will spend the focus to attack, then have a TL to reroll dice. 1 focus becomes a crit. Both presumably have guidance chips to change another blank to a hit (or a focus beyond the first for scout). Either are highly likely to have 4 hits, but the torpedoes are more likely to have at least 1 crit.

And scouts vs blount swarm, you'll probably kill at least 1 Z95 before it gets to fire due to higher PS, possibly more depending on rolls, since a scout could potentially 1-shot a Z with 4 hits if the z blanks out (OR 1 evade and a direct hit gets through on the crit from torpedoes). Meanwhile, the Zs need at least 3 missiles to kill a scout (unless the scout rolls 0 evades AND a direct hit gets through, or 2 direct hits if 2 evades are rolled).

In a match between the two the scouts will probably win due to multiple ps-kills. But against other lists the 5 Z's being able to more reliably get 4 hits makes them a bigger threat to aces. I've played against both lists quite a few times. The z-swarm is significantly more deadly against single-ace or double-ace lists. If these kinds of lists drive aces out of the meta the scouts will probably be better.

Haven't played agianst the z-swarm, but how is it more able to get 4 hits more reliably? Also, against high ps aces the z-swarm is marginally more vulnerable since if they managed to down blount bfeore he gets tracers off, it makes it way harder to get off your ordnance AND you'll be shooting it unmodified if you do. The scouts are self-sufficient.

The 4-dice punches are even a threat late-game against aces. I'm not a slouch with Corran, but after testing I will only run him post-wave 8 with Biggs and advanced sensors. Anything else is a near-guaranteed loss to the z-swarm. Burning down 1 scout and arcing/ranging/bumping 1 and tanking the other isn't nearly as hard as trying to hunt down a z while 3 more slowly line up a concussion kill-box behind you.