How is the T-65 supposed to compete against a Jouster so terrifying as a Defender?

By costing almost half as much.

Yeah I can say for a fact the x-wing can't compete it's out gunned on the initial joust and then again once it comes to turning around.

Three month in and I'm still undefeated with the new defenders using both titles, I've been using as many builds as I can to try to find a weak link but so far everything from advanced to firesprays work well.

I'm loving /D the increase in firepower is great, x7 makes you tanky it fits well on rexler but vessery and /D just decimate everything.

I do worry a little they've made them too strong.

Yeah I can say for a fact the x-wing can't compete it's out gunned on the initial joust and then again once it comes to turning around.

Three month in and I'm still undefeated with the new defenders using both titles, I've been using as many builds as I can to try to find a weak link but so far everything from advanced to firesprays work well.

I'm loving /D the increase in firepower is great, x7 makes you tanky it fits well on rexler but vessery and /D just decimate everything.

I do worry a little they've made them too strong.

I'm sure all the new stuff coming out will be able to compete. Like all the shenanigans Scum will get up to with their regen and their crazy retaliations, and Rebels with their autocorrected autoblaster turret.

How is the T-65 supposed to compete against a Jouster so terrifying as a Defender? The lower jousting value means the T-65 is going to have to outfly the Defender with a worse dial, no barrel-roll and lower Pilot Skill. Rebel Veterans can't come soon enough!

tbf, you could replace the Defender with almost any other ship there and it'd still be a relevant concern

How is the T-65 supposed to compete against a Jouster so terrifying as a Defender? The lower jousting value means the T-65 is going to have to outfly the Defender with a worse dial, no barrel-roll and lower Pilot Skill. Rebel Veterans can't come soon enough!

Just a pity the title didn't buy the mech at a 1pt discount. Even if you limited it to generic mech units, the jousting would have been top tier again.

I get Juggs' example and subsequent definition of a glass cannon, but when looking at the faction as a whole I don't agree. It's the only small base ship the Imps have that has more than two shields. That's pretty much what goes for robust in the Emperor's Navy.

If you're looking at the x7, then the generics are actually tanks:

~1.7x Z-95s of attack : ~2.7x Z-95s of durability --> ~0.64:1

Likewise even Vessery with x7+Juke is basically neutral:

~2.6x Z-95s of attack : ~2.7x Z-95s of durability --> ~0.95:1

Low overall hit points doesn't mean that you're automatically a glass cannon. Soontir Fel is a tank despite having "only" 3 hull, because his upgrades are almost purely defensive in nature. 35 point Fel going Full Turtle is actually more durable than even x7 Defenders.

aye

tankiness is a measure of guaranteed damage cancellation

which is why I have to scratch my head at people who find Ys and Bs durable. They dont die to **** dice, but they drop like rocks.

Redline, for example, hits like a cannon but is made of easily shattered glass

They are durable, you are guaranteed that they won't pop in one shot, which is a possibility with even Soontir Fel (if incredibly unlikely). The distinction here is that in X-Wing durability doesn't equal tankiness, durability being the tolarance for failing defenses, tankiness the ability to shrugg off damage.

I'm thinking of Omega Leader, Inquisitor and Vessery with TIE/D, Tractor Beam and VI. All are PS8, so I can shoot with Vessery first, capitalizing on his ablity and making the most use of Tractor Beam.

That's just 94 points, though. Add two Hull Upgrades? Shield and two Mk II? Alternatively, replace the 'quisitor with Echo with FCS.

I was thinking:

Colonel Vessery (35)

Veteran Instincts (1)

Tractor Beam (1)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE/D (0)

The Inquisitor (25)

Juke (2)

Proton Rockets (3)

Autothrusters (2)

TIE/v1 (1)

"Omega Leader" (21)

Juke (2)

Comm Relay (3)

Hull Upgrade (3)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

That's 101. Prockets sounds like a good idea though, just drop Mk. II.

So where's the error in the squad builder, as it clearly shows 100?

How is the T-65 supposed to compete against a Jouster so terrifying as a Defender? The lower jousting value means the T-65 is going to have to outfly the Defender with a worse dial, no barrel-roll and lower Pilot Skill. Rebel Veterans can't come soon enough!

tbf, you could replace the Defender with almost any other ship there and it'd still be a relevant concern

But most of the other ships aren't pure jousters. Even of those Jousters, there's only one so called 'Jouster' that was failing horribly even before the TIE/D showed up to claim the top rung on the Jouster ladder.

So where's the error in the squad builder, as it clearly shows 100?

Sorry, my mistake. Assumed PTL on the Inquisitor.

Sorry, my mistake. Assumed PTL on the Inquisitor.

Sorry, my mistake. Assumed PTL on the Inquisitor.

It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure his dial works well with PtL.

It probably won't, since you are stuck on one speed/straight manouvers. No matter how good those are, the missing ability to close distances is going to hurt. Juke with the v1 title on the other hand is, especially on a high PS ship, just a no-brainer. That Inquisitor will be scary!

Sorry, my mistake. Assumed PTL on the Inquisitor.

It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure his dial works well with PtL.

He has a green Hard-1 and Bank-1 though?

Not shabby for knife fights but yeah, catching up will be tricky.

My plan for the Inq is to keep at range 3 where his ability has the biggest impact, so slow green maneuvers are quite good, actually.

Might drop the prockets, take PtL and upgrade the hull to a shield on OL. The last point will be for an initiative bid.

Sorry, my mistake. Assumed PTL on the Inquisitor.

It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure his dial works well with PtL.

He has a green Hard-1 and Bank-1 though?

Not shabby for knife fights but yeah, catching up will be tricky.

it does have the 4 straight and a boost however, and it can be said that a 1 Hard BR back (toward target) and Boost in that direction can cover some ground. it will waste V1 for a turn however.

Vessery + TIE/D + Tractor Beam + Ruthlessness is an absurd glass cannon

Maybe you should rethink your definition of "glass canon". We're talking about a 3AGI, 6HP ship.

Maybe you should rethink what the definition of a glass cannon is.

A ship's position on the scale of "Glass Cannon" vs "Tank" is determined by the ratio of the ship's expected damage output to its expected durability.

I think the problem is that you're taking a term with an understood and accepted definition and trying to change it. People understand a Glass Cannon as something with high offense and low defense. As much as Vessery's Ruthless Tractor will draw fire, it still has high Agility and 6 combined hull/shields, which put it top tier for small-base craft just based on raw stats. A glass cannon is something that would fall apart after one or two hits. A Defender is still going to require several ships to target it, potentially over several rounds.

A better term would be to call it a Bullet Magnet.

X-wing is moneyball. Absolutes are irrelevant, the only thing that matters is relating a unit's effectiveness back to its cost.

To extend the analogy, let's say you have a PS1 ship with a stat line of 8/3/3/3. It costs 100 points so it is the only ship in your squad. (Or you can have 3 of them in Epic). Is that ship a tank or a glass cannon?

Likewise, Vessery + Ruthlessness + tractor beam is 39 points. He has the durability of less than two Z-95s, but costs more than 3 Z-95s. His durability for his cost is only about 65% that of the Z-95s. He is a glass cannon.

Also, 6 hit points behind 3AGI isn't that much when you have no action. Playing as BroBots vs Palp Aces, I would regularly take 6 damage from just 2 shots, one from Soontir Fel and one from Vader. I have also killed a full health Rexler in one round with non-crackshot BroBots. I played a game last night with Maximum Danger Zone where I killed TWO PS1 Z-95s before they fired in the opening volley. That's about the same durability as Vessery. In the wave 8/Imperial Veterens meta what you once thought was high durability will trivially melt in one round vs alpha strike lists. It frequently won't even take the entire list to kill Vessery in one round.

Yeah, I know that pain.

X-wing is moneyball. Absolutes are irrelevant, the only thing that matters is relating a unit's effectiveness back to its cost.

I think this is sort of true. Something that is offensively weighted, and is tough, even if it isn't tough for its points, gains some tactical benefits for still being tough. As a single small ship, it's easier to make use of the obstacles, and it's easier to dodge arcs by simply not being in them, and it's harder to be jammed up and blocked. A result of this ends up being your high point glass cannon ship Bruce Lee-ing its way through an assortment of weaker ships that cannot maximize firepower against it. Two lesser point glass cannon ships couldn't do this as well, because they'd be attacking on a more spread out front, which would be more limited due to board terrain.

TL/DR, concentrating power (both offensive and defensive) into a small footprint IS an advantage in this game, and it enhances a unit's effectiveness in ways that are not often considered. This makes relative glass cannons that are tough in absolute values something different from relative glass cannons that are not tough in absolute values.

This is all anecdotal, of course, but in all of my competitive games with Defenders (which I think is starting to go from anecdotal to statistical) I have never lost a ship in one round of firing. I don't remember losing a ship in two rounds of firing, but it might have happened. A lot of this has been in the low-firepower two ship meta of waves past, but it also includes games against triple/palp aces and crackswarms. I attribute most of this durability to use of the asteroids, thereby getting extra green dice and denying formations full action economy.

My plan for the Inq is to keep at range 3 where his ability has the biggest impact, so slow green maneuvers are quite good, actually.

Might drop the prockets, take PtL and upgrade the hull to a shield on OL. The last point will be for an initiative bid.

The Juke + Prockets combo seems a little out of character for the list, I must admit. It makes you want to pick two different actions.

The defender is kind of weird, in terms of glass cannon and tank, it has too much health behind its agility to be considered a proper glass cannon, (honestly, I would consider interceptor's to be glass cannons as they can be one shoted by skewed dice results, the best glass cannons are the ones that are hard to hit in the first place. (Soontir falls into this category). Tanks however can take lots of hits and still push through. These are you're rebel and scum regen ships, and fat ptws. Something you're gonna have to dedicate lots of ships several turns to have any chance of killing it in a timely fashion. Defenders don't have either the regen to disengage and heal, or the shear health to not care about being hit. I like the term bullit magnet. Above average damage with average defenses.

soontir does not hit hard enough to be considered a glass cannon, considering he hits as hard as your typical 3 dice + focus generic

he also never dies if you got your proper wall of tokens + thrusters (+ palpie) erected, assuming he ever gets shot at

x7 defenders will lack in thrusters, but have 3 extra shields

Again, MajorJuggler isn't saying that the Defender itself is a glass cannon. He is saying VESSORY is technically a glass cannon, because his damage output is so massive.

This, like the "At what point do we call an expensive ship "fat" and what is the difference between a "fat" ship and a "super" ship?" discussion from the fat turretwing era is completely pointless, and the classifications you guys come up with are wrong anyways.

Soontir and Whisper /are not/ glass cannons. Something with autothrusters, 4 agility, 2 focus tokens, an evade token, and perhaps also Palpatine is not a glass cannon, that's ridiculous. They're the ships that are the hardest to whiff with.

Soontir is obviously strong defensively. Probably the hardest to kill ship in the game ignoring hard counters like Vader and Autoblaster weapons.

The Defender with the D title or an HLC is powerful offensively and decent defensively. With X7 it gets much more defensive.

This, like the "At what point do we call an expensive ship "fat" and what is the difference between a "fat" ship and a "super" ship?" discussion from the fat turretwing era is completely pointless, and the classifications you guys come up with are wrong anyways.

Soontir and Whisper /are not/ glass cannons. Something with autothrusters, 4 agility, 2 focus tokens, an evade token, and perhaps also Palpatine is not a glass cannon, that's ridiculous. They're the ships that are the hardest to whiff with.

Soontir is obviously strong defensively. Probably the hardest to kill ship in the game ignoring hard counters like Vader and Autoblaster weapons.

The Defender with the D title or an HLC is powerful offensively and decent defensively. With X7 it gets much more defensive.

This is true. I referred to interceptors and phantoms as glass cannons upthread, and they're really not. I was thinking of them as such not so much as being high offense/low defense as MJ is describing it, but as things that had high offense and were very vulnerable to hard counters. That's loosely related to status as a glass cannon, but not the same thing.