hey guys,

so, in the early days of wave 7, I was pleased by what I Thought was a very diverse imperial meta. With generic Advance, ties, FOs etc. seemingly very potent and the ordnance fixes on the horizon, it seemed a great time to be an imperial player

course, now it's just Palp aces, but I've still seen crackshot Tie Fighters (both varieties) run to some incredible effect. The FO especially might not be the most efficient ship, but its dial is a pure delight and its two big Leaders (zeta and omega) are pretty punchy for their price.

I've personally had no trouble running them, especially not against the supposed meta boogyman of the TLT Y/K (in fact, palp aces prove much more troubling due to more green dice).

But Juggler's predictions of the Tie/x7 Delta (don't shoot the messenger, dude's just projecting math from FFG's design) being more efficient than the Academy are a bit concerning.

While I'm not worried about the PS 1 variant, but the fact that the sexy Glaive Squadron gets PS 6 over the Black's and Omega's 4 in addition to having more red dice and a white 4k. While the Defender dial may seem less swanky than the FO's, it is (and has always been) a lot more flexible than people have given it credit for. Between the higher PS, more red dice, easier dial and built in defensive tech of the x7 title, there seems to be no reason to use the FO in place of the Glaive especially since you can't even get two for the same price (the Glaive would have to be 36 base, before x7, to equal two base Omegas)

the only tangible benefit the FO can sport (apart from being cheaper) is that the dial is a lot tighter (re: capable of making lower speed turns without stress + lower speed segnors as opposed to just a 4k) which makes navigating around obstacles a lot simpler. Other than that, we're down to pilot specific abilities, as not even the Juke relay FO can hold a candle to the Juke x7 Glaive (presuming ept, ala royal guard pilot) against the likes of soontir and poe. While the FO's cheaper price and dial may seem appealing as a blocker, the stat advantage the Glaive sports seems to negate that advantage entirely.

Now, the defender is obviously long overdue its time to shine, but I do wonder at what will become of the empire's stock of generic ships when that beast hits store shelves. It's finally representative of the bad ass ship flown by only the most elite of imperial pilots, but when we hear of almost nothing but palp aces I do wonder if there will be room for any other generic.

Then again, at only 30 points a pair, I don't think the black squaddie will be overly concerned

I bow before the throne of Vessery, the Monster.

There are still some upgrades we have to see, though. As well as see how Wave 7 does with Imperials.

The Glaive killing off the /fo? Really?

They're in completely different point ballparks. A /fo can fit in a hole in a squad that a Glaive is too expensive to.

I'm interested in the x7. At least right now, I think the dial is idiosyncratic enough to offset a little bit of advantage in terms of efficiency--and I think generic Defenders will be obvious and early targets for ordnance with Guidance Chips/LRS, which should push back on their inclusion to some extent.

But I'm terrified of Vessery + TIE/D. I'm worried that in a few months, we'll have two kinds of Imperial lists: those with both Vessery and Soontir, and those with only Vessery.

At the price point I think they replace aces much more than generics. Unless you are building a whole squad of defenders (which may be a possibility if the costs work out) it is much more likely you end up with 20ish points to spend on a final ship.

I am more curious what effects Defender fixes and munitions will do to the meta in regards to Rebels.

I guess the biggest thing with the FO is I simply cannot see it as a one-of unless you're running Omega L (who's really his own beast); maybe Zeta

2-dice single filler ships aren't terribly stupendous apart from, imo, the wee prototype pilot (because boost on that baby turns it into the world's greatest blocker). Neither Tie Fighter I've found is really capable of replicating that feat with only barrel-roll, and I've never been able to justify running them in anything less than a pair. They just don't do a whole lot by themselves.

Now, as a pair, two Omega crackshots are surprisingly potent, but the problem then becomes that I can soon get an x7 glaive for cheaper. You lose a body, certainly, but the boost in offense is incredibly significant in the current environment (almost impossible to touch palp aces with two dice) and it comes with potent, built-in defenses.

most of all, 2 dice (with the exception of OL) is goddawful against high agility, which old palp aces and new defenders sport in spades

therein lies my primary concern of the FO being supplanted

I don't think rebels are going to care much, personally. Might have to adapt a little if you crutch excessively on ole stressy, but otherwise I don't see them being more potent than palp aces (except when it comes to resisting Sabined Conners; those'll be fun!). Tie/D T-beams I need to see on the table, because so much of their utility is completely independent of easy stats/dice (namely the forced move) and that'll require adaptation on table more than anything

I bow before the throne of Vessery, the Monster.

Vessery (With VI), Omega Leader, Inquisitor, Rexlar, Carnor, Echo (With VI), Juno, and Tomax: The "Hateful Eight(s)" of the Empire, able to be slotted in and out of a 3-ship list with relative impunity. Target Locks abound and Vessery is King.

I don't think rebels are going to care much, personally. Might have to adapt a little if you crutch excessively on ole stressy, but otherwise I don't see them being more potent than palp aces (except when it comes to resisting Sabined Conners; those'll be fun!). Tie/D T-beams I need to see on the table, because so much of their utility is completely independent of easy stats/dice (namely the forced move) and that'll require adaptation on table more than anything

Poe, Corran, Miranda, and all the other excellent regenerators are very good at taking 1-2 damage or so and then regenerating it next turn. Ion Cannon TIE/Ds **** them up in a BIG way.

if regenerators are going to wet themselves, imo its the ordnance that'll do it first. Redline especially has been having a ball in proxied GC games; easily and reliably 2-shotting Poe between plasmas and cluster missiles.

While I'm looking forward to Ion Tie/Ds (finally some legit empire control tech!), I have played Defenders before can boy o boy can their greens be fickle. X7 makes them far more defensibly reliable.

on a slightly less related note, due to the similarities between the FO and the TAPs, imo the Inquisitor is going to be a fine addition to the empire

the lesser pilots, not so much. Unless some snazzy missile build pops up, they're facing the same problems as the FO and don't have the same sexiness to show for it

I think the days of the Academy and Obsidian Pilot swarm is largely dead, along with their TIE/fo counterparts. They simply don't hold a candle to Crackshot Blacks. Omega and Zeta Leaders are here to stay.

The Defenders are going to be a concern, but I think they'll be manageable. They can fully punch at their weight class, but they're also going to remain expensive ships in what looks like an Alpha Strike meta.

I propose that Neo Vessery in all his titled glory, with ion/tractor be referred to as "nuclear Wessery!"

That is all. I can't wait for my viable T/Ds.

There's more to the game than just jousting efficiency. Sometimes you need a nimble cheap ship to more than just shoot, whether to block, clog lanes, distract or amplify an effect in numbers (Howlrunner / Youngster). The more expensive defender may be able to do all of those, but isn't really a good choice for those due to it's price.

sure, there is more to the game than jousting, but I don't think dedicated small ship blockers (apart from the A) can reliably pull their weight anymore. The problem with them now is, without crackshot, they either block or serve no purpose whatsoever because they simply can't hit through the amount of defensive tech available.

plus, with new uber blockers incoming (Zeb crew VCX with AC autoblasters, the SS **** Soontir contracted Scout with IA, feedback and APL), the little tie or z becomes far less appealing so long as aces remain scary. The big difference between these uber blockers and a tie or z is that they can kill an ace by themselves. FOs and Ties I've found are great for mulching TLTs, but I personally havn't had nearly as much trouble with those as with palp aces

meanwhile, the defender can just go toe-to-toe with aces, which is something no FO outside Omega L can boast of doing, but also be PS 6 to shred TLTs before they fire

but vewily, despite concerns, we must express wehement, wigorous longing for the good colonel Wessery and his powerful (but not nuclear) wessel

Come Imperial Veterans, every Imperial ship will be viable. I think we are going to see a huge opening in the Imperial meta. Not really concerned about the FO. It is a different role than a Defender. FO's are filler, but I don't really see a Defender being JUST filler. They're still expensive. Even with x7, they reach the point range of an ace or pocket ace. They are going to be a major part of your squad, not just filler. If you want filler, go for more numbers in the FO.

Edit: Just to add, I think the squad type a Defender will fit in best is a 3-ship list due to their point cost. You already don't see FO's in a three ship list (besides OL), so no problem! Looking forward to this beauty:

Rexlar + Pred + x7 + Twin ion engines (39)

Tomax + TIE/Shuttle + Cool Hand + Fleet Officer + Twin Ion Engines (29)

Inquisitor + PtL + AT + v1 (31)

Total: 99

If Systems Officer has good synergy with Fleet Officer, I may switch PtL out for VI. I like this list because it's got it all. Tomax supports very well and still survives very well. Inquisitor for the arc dodger, especially with PtL to get triple actions. Finally, Rexlar punches people's teeth in, especially when having that extra focus token from Tomax. He becomes a terror to high hull/low agility ships.

Freebie random factoids

/x7

• /x7 generic Defenders will be slightly more cost efficient than TIE Fighters before considering it's dial, assuming they get their free evade ~75% of the time. Because of the white K-turn, it's solid filler in the 28-30 point range. Generic x7 Defenders are obvious power creep relative to generic TIE Fighters (dial is still a net positive and they're already more efficient), but generic TIE Fighters are all but dead due to varying power creep (cost efficient TLT and cost efficient Aces), so it will be interesting to see how the x7 Defenders do. They should still do well.
• On a PS-derated basis, generics are still slightly less efficient (~98% @ PS3) than rebel Z-95's.
• The PS3 should have a slightly better value than the PS1 Delta.
• x7's have 6 hit points, plus a focus and an evade, so they at least shouldn't instantly vaporize from an early alpha-strike, although a 28 point Delta does run the risk of getting destroyed vs the combined firepower of 3-4 PS2 alpha strike ships, let alone the 4x PS5 Craskshot LRS Homing Missile squad.

TIE/D + Ion Cannon

• This is easily the most cost effective platform for the Ion Cannon yet. (PS3 ~90% derated by PS). You will still need to use the Ion effect and K-turn to earn your value back. Your mileage may vary, but it should be solid in the hands of the right player and squad.

TIE/D + Tractor Beam

• This is, again, easily the most cost effective platform for the Tractor Beam, because you don't sacrifice your main shot. It's actually a little more cost effective than the Ion Cannon (PS3 ~94% derated for PS), provided there is at least 1 more follow-on 3 dice attack to take advantage of the target's potentially reduced AGI. Like the Ion Cannon above, you will need to use the tractor beam yank and the Defender's white K to earn your points back.
• The tractor beam "yank" is easily the most disruptive mechanical addition to the game since the pre-nerf Phantom decloack mechanic. I haven't done analytical playtesting on it yet to see how bad/good/broken it is, so I don't have any specific predictions on "yank", except that with the Defender's efficiency and white K it won't have to work too hard to be competitively viable.
• "yank" will have a very high skill cap, so expect to see a lot of players try this out, and the best ones should be destroying lower skilled players with it.

Vessery

• If you take a TIE Defender without taking Vessery, then you are probably building your squad wrong.
• Vessery + x7/Juke is around 100% jousting efficient before derating for his PS, and that doesn't factor in the target's reduced action economy later in the round due to Juke. This assumes Vessery can only get a free TL 50% of the time.
• Vessery and Omega Leader are BFFs, and can push his numbers up higher than the above, since Omega Leader never spends the TL.
• Vessery + x7 is pretty well balanced between durability and attack, so should see consistent use in the right squads, such as with Omega Leader.
• Vessery + Ruthlessness + Tractor beam is an absolute offensive monster with an upper-end cap about 2x as high as anything the game has seen so far. Your mileage will vary based on how often there is another ship within range 1 of the target to trigger Ruthlessness, and how many ships can pile on to take advantage of your tractor beam -1AGI. Here's Vessery's approximate net damage contribution with various assumptions*, normalized to how much damage a Z-95 does.
  • 100% TL, 100% Ruth, TB2: ~7x Z-95's
  • 50% TL, 75% Ruth, TB1: ~4.8x Z-95's.
  • 50% TL, 50% Ruth, TB0: ~4.2x Z-95's.
• Vessery + TIE/D is Public Enemy #1 and MUST BE KILLED ASAP by the opposing squad. The above Vessery + TIE/D + Tractor Beam + Ruthlessness is an absurd glass cannon. This is bad for him especially vs higher PS ships because he can die before he gets to do all his damage. The most extreme example is the first case (ideal best case scenario), which is about 3.7:1 attack:defense, normalized to a Z-95. For reference, an uncloaked 4/2/2/2 Phantom is around 2.7:1. More realistic in-game scenarios for Vessery (i.e. the 2nd 4.8x number) are right around in this range.

*Numbers are defined as:

• X% TL: % of time Vessery grabs a free Target Lock.
• Ruth %: target always has an enemy ship within range 1 (before or after tractor beam yank) for Ruthlessness to trigger X% of the time. Value of 1 damage via Ruthlessness is considered the same as the target you're attacking (note: this is pessimistic, real world can be much nastier).
• TB0, TB1, TB2: target has TBX ships attacking it after Vessery, to take advantage of the lower AGI (provided tractor beam hits).

That's not a typo, Vessery + TB/Ruthlessness can, in the ideal case, do the equivalent damage of 84 points worth of Z-95s. This actually is very achievable on the initial pass in KO's "DVD" squad. Thank KO for alerting me to this particular combo.

That is some nuts math. What would we do without you.

Play fun things and fels wrath all day everyday

That is some nuts math. What would we do without you.

Play fun things and fels wrath all day everyday

defenders are fun

only concern is they may be too fun now

That is some nuts math. What would we do without you.

Play fun things and fels wrath all day everyday

defenders are fun

only concern is they may be too fun now

so what you're saying is all my future builds will include...

AT MINIMUM

26 point OL + Vessery? i think im okay with that

But I'm terrified of Vessery + TIE/D. I'm worried that in a few months, we'll have two kinds of Imperial lists: those with both Vessery and Soontir, and those with only Vessery.

I am not at all ashamed to admit that I will be contributing to this every time I play Imperial post-Veterans. :-D

That is some nuts math. What would we do without you.

Play fun things and fels wrath all day everyday

defenders are fun

only concern is they may be too fun now

so what you're saying is all my future builds will include...

AT MINIMUM

26 point OL + Vessery? i think im okay with that

Omega Leader and Vessery can be pretty brutal NOW. I love mine with 2 Crack Omegas. With X7, I can now toss on a Hull Upgrade, to make it even tougher to crack Vessery.

I mean, it doesn't take the math to realize that Vessery will be an absolute monster. Now matter what title you take.

That is some nuts math. What would we do without you.

Play fun things and fels wrath all day everyday

defenders are fun

only concern is they may be too fun now

so what you're saying is all my future builds will include...

AT MINIMUM

26 point OL + Vessery? i think im okay with that

Omega (juke relay) [26]

Glaive (Juke, x7) [33/34]

Vessery (ruthless, tie/d, t-beam) [39]

[98/99]

or, if you want vess to last

Omega (juke, relay) [26]

Redline (fcs, clusters, plasmas, munitions, chips) [38]

Vessery (juke, x7) [35] - formerly two crack omegas

[99]

That is some nuts math. What would we do without you.

Play fun things and fels wrath all day everyday

defenders are fun

only concern is they may be too fun now

so what you're saying is all my future builds will include...

AT MINIMUM

26 point OL + Vessery? i think im okay with that

Omega (juke relay) [26]

Glaive (Juke, x7) [33/34]

Vessery (ruthless, tie/d, t-beam) [39]

[98/99]

or, if you want vess to last

Omega (juke, relay) [26]

Redline (fcs, clusters, plasmas, munitions, chips) [38]

Vessery (juke, x7) [35] - formerly two crack omegas

[99]

OL Juke Comms (26)

Vess Tractor /d Ruthlessness (39)

OGP Palp Title Reinforced Deflectors. (35)

comes to be 100

x7's have 6 hit points, plus a focus and an evade, so they at least shouldn't instantly vaporize from an early alpha-strike, although a 28 point Delta does run the risk of getting destroyed vs the combined firepower of 3-4 PS2 alpha strike ships, let alone the 4x PS5 Craskshot LRS Homing Missile squad.

Yeah: two shots can do it with luck (especially if they're Homing Missiles), and three can do it reliably enough. And most ordnance carriers have default PS2/4 against the Defender's 1/3, so the alpha strike has the advantage unless the Defenders make a PS bid and the ordnance doesn't.

I don't know how many lists will be running 3+ ships with missiles or torpedoes, but if generic x7 Defenders start to push on the metagame they might pick up.

Vessery

If you take a TIE Defender without taking Vessery, then you are probably building your squad wrong.

Since he'll have the most consistent damage in the game, yoked to either strong control or excellent durability, I think any competitive Imperial list will need to feature him or be left behind.

Vessery and Omega Leader are BFFs, and can push his numbers up higher than the above, since Omega Leader never spends the TL.

And lists that can't or don't want to run Omega Leader can run a TIE Adv. Prototype with the v1 title for as little as 17 points: it does want to spend its lock, but the timing still works for Vessery, it has the incentive and the ability to pick it back up every round.

Vessery + Ruthlessness + Tractor beam is an absolute offensive monster with an upper-end cap about 2x as high as anything the game has seen so far. Your mileage will vary based on how often there is another ship within range 1 of the target to trigger Ruthlessness, and how many ships can pile on to take advantage of your tractor beam -1AGI.

...The above Vessery + TIE/D + Tractor Beam + Ruthlessness is an absurd glass cannon.

Yes, he's a glass cannon if you consider his ratio of offense to defense. But in absolute terms, 6 hit points behind 3 Agility is fairly strong defense--especially when you consider that he'll usually have an action available to modify his defense dice. He won't be Soontir, but he'll take a lot of killing.

OL Juke Comms (26)

Vess Tractor /d Ruthlessness (39)

OGP Palp Title Reinforced Deflectors. (35)

comes to be 100

palpatine is le zzzzzzzzzzzzz

seen enough of him as is this wave, so let's ignore him and blow more **** up instead