Judging from all the tournaments I've been so far, finishing in the top 4 seems more like punishment than anything else. At least now I can aim for 5th place rather than 9th!.

I think any approach has pros and cons. As stated in smaller no cut events going 4-0 is the deciding factor and this encourages certain builds. Have cuts in larger events makes a long day potentially very long. Its all swings and roundabouts to me. No single idea is better than any other in my mind (at least of the ones I've seen so far). As long as the lay of the land is clearly stated in advance I don't think this is an issue. Everyone still has a good time playing spaceships and dice are what they are. Good players can mitigate against bad dice whether or not there is a larger cut or not.

as a real reply to this post I have seen more than a couple stores cut off registration at 24 to even stop a 5 round/ 4 cut tournament day. If you start at noon that is a long day with travel.

What stores start a championship at 12?

9:30am has been the latest start I have seen round here. One started at 8:30am.

Yavin is going to be fun. They're hoping for 512 players.

8:30 am, even 9:30 on a weekend is just a different form of torture.

as a real reply to this post I have seen more than a couple stores cut off registration at 24 to even stop a 5 round/ 4 cut tournament day. If you start at noon that is a long day with travel.

What stores start a championship at 12?

9:30am has been the latest start I have seen round here. One started at 8:30am.

All the tournaments I've been to in CT have started at 11:00.

I think the current system is intended as a compromise between fairness and manageability. And I think it more or less works that way... right up to about 32 players. (At 32, cutting to the top 4 eliminates just one 4-1 player.)

It's worse, at 32 players you can easily have 2 players not make the cut. (See above post for image -- link now fixed). At 33-40 players you can have 3 or even 4 X-1's not make the cut.

You can't trust the online swiss triangle calculators. They make the simplifying assumption of paired down players either always winning, or always losing. The only way to know for sure is to just do iterative convolution with fractional players to get the probabilistic result.

The FFG article mentioned that they did "simulation"; judging by the small <1 player bumps around 75 and 147 players, I'm assuming they meant for all the X-1 players to make the cut for events larger than 41 players, but they didn't do a complete analysis, and missed some possible permutations.

And yes, car-pooling is an option, but what if I don't make the cut and my ride does?

Same advice (minus the beer) applies if you're the driver and one of your passengers makes the cut

as a real reply to this post I have seen more than a couple stores cut off registration at 24 to even stop a 5 round/ 4 cut tournament day. If you start at noon that is a long day with travel.

What stores start a championship at 12?

9:30am has been the latest start I have seen round here. One started at 8:30am.

SC 1- started at 11

SC 2- started at 11

SC 3- started at 11

SC 4- started at 1030

SC 5- started at 2pm (Luckily this tournament ran small)

SC 6- starts at 12 (this weekend)

You can't trust the online swiss triangle calculators.

I don't--it was literally back-of-the envelope work.

The FFG article mentioned that they did "simulation"; judging by the small <1 player bumps around 75 and 147 players, I'm assuming they meant for all the X-1 players to make the cut for events larger than 41 players, but they didn't do a complete analysis, and missed some possible permutations.

Yeah. What frustrates me is that once you have that many players, you have many more options for tournament structures. Double-elimination would cost (at most) one more round, and it's no more difficult to run than Swiss. Round-robin pods qualifying into Swiss finals would be drastically better, at least as far as identifying strong players, but it would likely mean running over two days. I don't think that's a bad thing, especially when attendance at some regionals could easily hit triple digits this year, but it definitely makes the logistics tougher.

As for their "simulation"... I'd bet an Excel spreadsheet was heavily involved.

I know the length of tournaments has been a big factor for some of my group when it comes to the store championships. The closest ones have been at least 60-90 minutes away. Which isn't bad in and of itself. But coming at the end of nine hours of gaming and likely at or past midnight? Different story. And yes, car-pooling is an option, but what if I don't make the cut and my ride does?

you bring a book to read with you

I think the current system is intended as a compromise between fairness and manageability. And I think it more or less works that way... right up to about 32 players. (At 32, cutting to the top 4 eliminates just one 4-1 player.)

It's worse, at 32 players you can easily have 2 players not make the cut. (See above post for image -- link now fixed). At 33-40 players you can have 3 or even 4 X-1's not make the cut.

You can't trust the online swiss triangle calculators. They make the simplifying assumption of paired down players either always winning, or always losing. The only way to know for sure is to just do iterative convolution with fractional players to get the probabilistic result.

The FFG article mentioned that they did "simulation"; judging by the small <1 player bumps around 75 and 147 players, I'm assuming they meant for all the X-1 players to make the cut for events larger than 41 players, but they didn't do a complete analysis, and missed some possible permutations.

Or you just un-click the "Paired Down" always wins button to get both possible results.

I think more swiss and less cut is a good thing as it has more players playing more games. As far as bad luck keeping you from making a cut I don't see why that is any different than having bad luck knock you out of the elimination rounds.

Now if you get incredible turnouts then a larger cut does make more sense but if you're thinking a bigger cut eliminates punishment for luck you're mistaken because it just shifts when that luck matters. With a very low turnout I'm not sure a cut should exist.

More players in the cut isn't always a positive to strive for.

Events need be be run-able. If the are required to be too long, stores will just opt out of running them.

Additionally, having too many players make the top cut out of the field just invalidates the swiss rounds. Going 2-2 shouldn't give you a chance of making elimination rounds.

I think the jump to 8 needs to happen earlier then 41, but not as earlier as it was.

You can't trust the online swiss triangle calculators. They make the simplifying assumption of paired down players either always winning, or always losing. The only way to know for sure is to just do iterative convolution with fractional players to get the probabilistic result.

Or you just un-click the "Paired Down" always wins button to get both possible results.

Let me put it another way: if you are running 6 rounds of swiss that has 1 paired down player per round (it's more complicated than that, but just bear with me as a baseline), then there are 2⁶ = 64 different permutations that can result. Using paired down "always win" or "always lose" only gets you 2 of those permutations, and there are many other possibilities that can occur that you would have missed, as FFG likely did. Some of those "other" permutations can result in more X-1 players missing the cut than you would observe looking at only the 2 simple cases.

More players in the cut isn't always a positive to strive for.

Maybe not. But if OP [EDIT: meaning Organized Play, not the original poster] perceives a need to include a cut at all, it needs to be for more than just show. With a cut that's too small, you might as well just play enough Swiss rounds to find a single undefeated player: it's actually a better tournament structure, and it's also at least a round shorter.

Events need be be run-able. If the are required to be too long, stores will just opt out of running them.

I agree, but my problem is that even moderately sized tourneys are already so long that they're pushing the limits of a reasonable one-day event. I'm not sure what the solution is, but implementing smaller tournament cuts across the board is just painting over the crack in the foundation.

Is there anything keeping a store from doing a two-day store championship?

Is there anything keeping a store from doing a two-day store championship?

You're much less likely to get anyone from out of town, as those people would have to book a hotel, and if they don't make the cut, that's easily $100+ wasted.

Is there anything keeping a store from doing a two-day store championship?

Stores have other games/communities that they must cater to as well. Unless it's the moneymaker that MtG is I doubt a store would be willing to give a whole weekend to just one.

Is there anything keeping a store from doing a two-day store championship?

Yeah the cost. It might be fine for some place like the FFG Event Center, but for smaller stores, they're effectively closed the store for the day. I mean they might still make some sales, but most of their table space is booked.

Then there's the issue of what days? Most stores tend to be open fewer hours on Sunday then Saturday.

Plus as was said above, you eliminate anyone who needs to travel far.

Even for Regionals it's questionable. I don't mind spending a day playing X-Wing but if I devoted a whole weekend to it my wife would not be happy.

As it stands, you are repetitive.

Is there anything keeping a store from doing a two-day store championship?

Yeah the cost. It might be fine for some place like the FFG Event Center, but for smaller stores, they're effectively closed the store for the day. I mean they might still make some sales, but most of their table space is booked.

Then there's the issue of what days? Most stores tend to be open fewer hours on Sunday then Saturday.

Plus as was said above, you eliminate anyone who needs to travel far.

Even for Regionals it's questionable. I don't mind spending a day playing X-Wing but if I devoted a whole weekend to it my wife would not be happy.

To reiterate, the problem for me is that a Regionals tournament is already effectively a two-day event.

Kansas City is two hours from my home, and will almost certainly host a Regional tournament. Judging from the fact that two nearby store championships on the same day drew 30+ players each, Regionals is probably going to last at least nine rounds (6 rounds of Swiss plus a cut to top 8). And that means even if they start at 10am and run an uncommonly smooth tournament with no breaks, if I make the cut I'm probably not getting in the car to head home until at least 11pm.

So, basically, I'm going to be looking at an overnight stay in KC. And that's fine, but if I'm already not going to make it home for the night, why not go ahead and implement a fairer, more interesting tourney structure even if it takes a little more time?

why not go ahead and implement a fairer, more interesting tourney structure even if it takes a little more time?

That's fair. I guess the question is, would doing that increase or decrease the number of people who attend regionals? For me the regionals are at the FFG event center about an hour trip, so it's a day long event and I was home by 7pm or so last year.

For me a two day regional would mean me not going. But I could see for some others that would be better.

So the question becomes... Which is going to draw more people?

Also it somewhat begs the question of if they're going to be that large perhaps more regionals would be better?

Is there anything keeping a store from doing a two-day store championship?

Yeah the cost. It might be fine for some place like the FFG Event Center, but for smaller stores, they're effectively closed the store for the day. I mean they might still make some sales, but most of their table space is booked.Then there's the issue of what days? Most stores tend to be open fewer hours on Sunday then Saturday.Plus as was said above, you eliminate anyone who needs to travel far.Even for Regionals it's questionable. I don't mind spending a day playing X-Wing but if I devoted a whole weekend to it my wife would not be happy.

To reiterate, the problem for me is that a Regionals tournament is already effectively a two-day event.Kansas City is two hours from my home, and will almost certainly host a Regional tournament. Judging from the fact that two nearby store championships on the same day drew 30+ players each, Regionals is probably going to last at least nine rounds (6 rounds of Swiss plus a cut to top 8). And that means even if they start at 10am and run an uncommonly smooth tournament with no breaks, if I make the cut I'm probably not getting in the car to head home until at least 11pm.So, basically, I'm going to be looking at an overnight stay in KC. And that's fine, but if I'm already not going to make it home for the night, why not go ahead and implement a fairer, more interesting tourney structure even if it takes a little more time?

The biggest hurdle would be selling that concept to the stores. As a poster above noted, you're asking the store to essentially shut down for a weekend if the event is two days long. So the question becomes is that going to be profitable for the stores? Presently, I'd say not likely given the expected event fee players are use to. When you factor in the opportunity cost of other events that could have been run in the same space and time span. There is certainly a price you could come up with to make it worthwhile, but given some of the reactions I've seen towards venues actually looking to turn a profit on the events they hold I'm not sure you could sell that price to players.

It's a whole big balancing act. What's the format with the most competitive integrity, that stores will actually want to run, and players will actually want to go to.

The current tournament structure doesn't help keep things timely either.

A 4 round tournament with a cut to top four ran from 10a-11p in Huntsville.

And then I drove back to Georgia and got home at 3 in the morning, because one of our carpoolers won the tournament.

Sometimes you do stuff with your friends because it's fun, timing be damned.