I can't test everything. The game will be tweaked, revised, analysed by the players themselves. This is not a finished product and never will.

Keeping it simple would be the better approach. I can see why they would join the pilots with the ship and not let them travel to other ships even though it is perfectly possible.

however I often would do this to Armada. There is just so many missed opportunities with Armada to include docking/launching hyperspace and droids on everything. Especially with the squadrons in Armada, too simplistic IMHO. Would have given B-wigns and TIE Advanced a hyperdrive which allows them to deploy separate from the capital ship (think infiltration) and for Y-wings and X-wings give them a droid upgrade card like R2 Astromech/R2-D2 which on a regular X-wing squadron just gives them hyperdrive but on an ace leader gets the unique droid that gives the squadron a defensive ability.

I can't test everything. The game will be tweaked, revised, analysed by the players themselves. This is not a finished product and never will.

And this right here is why I would never play your system. You want to modify others ideas but not test them yourself. That is literally the most back handed thing to do. Oh, hey, I see your system isn't quite good, here's mine! What, you expected me to prove its better? No, no, no, I dont have to prove that Im right, you have to do the work to show me I'm wrong.

I never asked anyone to prove anything, ever. Heck, I didn't even ask feedback in the first place (though I really appreciate all feedback given).

I'm just offering the product of dozens of hours of my work for anyone who might find it interesting. That's it.

PS: And sure I will play it - why would I have all this trouble if this was going to stay just in the screen of the computer? But right now, I need to prioritize: do I want this system to be perfect for everybody (even if opinions will always differ) or do I want to finish it?

Some Imperial pilot cards...

Not many Imperial character have images, so unfortunately some of them will have generic looks (helmet), like this:

I mean... If almost all of the pilots are just restricted to one ship anyways, i don't see the point in making them separate cards.

Yeah most of the TIE pilots shold be able to fly a TIE fighter as thats the basic trainer

I mean... If almost all of the pilots are just restricted to one ship anyways, i don't see the point in making them separate cards.

I will tell the reasons:

1- I can add ship abilities without resorting to that artificial title cards;

2- The ship cards will fit nicely to the "RPG" mode I'm building. The pilot card will be replaced by a "character sheet";

3- Pilot pictures!

Yeah most of the TIE pilots shold be able to fly a TIE fighter as thats the basic trainer

You are right... I left the TIE Fighter out of most aces because they wouldn't return to the "flying coffins" once progressed to better ships, but I can review that.

I was tempted to make Maarek Stele "Imperial small ship only", but I didn't want to see him piloting a TIE Phantom, TIE/fo and TIE/sf... (and TIE Advanced)

Uhhh... Pilots as upgrades was an unmitigated disaster in attack wing from what I've heard, so I counsel hard against that route.

While there are definite problems with having separate pilots, Star Trek attack wing is not a good example. They simple screwed up all aspects of game design. You could cite ST:AW as an example of why pre-planned maneuver dials or specialized attack dice are a bad idea.

Out of curiosity: what did ST:AW screw up exactly compared to x-wing? And why are seperate pilots a bad idea?

Credentials: I have a massive Star Trek Attack Wing fleet, have won my share of tournaments, but eventually quit.

You've seen it in X-Wing. A single "new" upgrade can change the meta. Y-Wings were rusting in hangers until the TLT upgrade put them back on the mat in force. That's not a bad thing, but it is a thing - and what makes it a thing is something we call synergy .

Synergy is like medicine, a little isn't enough, but too much isn't healthy.

Now for some math to illustrate the point I hope to make....(TL;DR; More is bad). The number of upgrade cards in a system that can synergize increases exponentially as each new upgrade is introduced. If you have say, 25 upgrade cards to play with, you can probably pair up some of those cards on the same ship. With only 10 cards. the number of permutations would be !10 / (!2(10-2)!) or about 45 combinations. With 15 cards, that jumps to 105 combinations, with 25, we're at 300 combinations, at 40 we're at 780 combos, at 50 we're at 1225, etc.

X-Wing has done a great job (so far) keeping the synergy between various upgrades balanced - but even their efforts have had to be tweaked when some players find a synergy that either wasn't anticipated, or ended up being too advantageous - hence we've seen a few cards dialed back.

It is no secret that Star Trek: Attack Wing was designed as an unapologetic Star Trek themed X-Wing clone. The game systems are near identical - with few exceptions, and some differences in nomenclature. One BIG difference however, was the intention to make the game more modular than X-Wing. This was implemented in part via "faction penalties" - the notion that you could take any upgrade from any faction, and use it on any ship - as long as you paid a bit more for it (+1 SP) when building your fleet. Another "innovation" was that ship Captains (the Star Trek: Attack Wing equivalent of an X-Wing Pilot) would likewise be "upgrades" that could be shuffled around within their factions - or even used in other factions for a minor SP penalty.

These two "innovations" basically meant that (more or less) every kind of upgrade could be used with any kind of ship under any kind of captain, and the number of permutations involved escalated rapidly. The number of permutations remained manageable at first - when the number of ships, captains, and upgrades remained small. But unlike X-Wing, new waves began to appear monthly, along with an abundance of tournaments - whose prizes included limited edition ships, etc. meant that the number of cards being introduced rapidly increased to the point that by the sixth wave, certain card combinations were so unbalanced, the meta began to polarize around those few ships and upgrades that could take the greatest advantage of the unbalanced synergies the new combos introduced.

With new waves snowballing into the meta every month and new limited edition prize ships coming (more or less) monthly, the number of permutations increased far faster than the design team could balance the game. In fact, for about a year, almost nothing was done to balance the game.

The main reason the game became unbalanced to the point that it was almost unplayable for a full year - was because the number of synergistic permutations didn't just "out-pace" the designer's ability to balance the game, it ruined the game - and many would say it ruined it irreparably .

Keeping pilots tied to specific ships significantly reduces the number of permutations, and subsequently, makes balancing the game that much more manageable - especially as the game grows in scope. X-Wing is already at a point where a single new upgrade card will introduce dozens if not hundreds of new "synergies". That's not necessarily a bad thing as long as there remains enough time in-between waves to review and test every synergistic combination.

It isn't too hard to write a program that takes a new card, and prints out all new combinations that card introduces. Testers can certainly review each new combination, but the time it takes to do this review, and to subsequently test troublesome combinations, and iteratively re-work the new card till it is truly balanced increases with each card added. I don't doubt that you can already measure the number of days required to fully test each proposed upgrade is already in the "weeks" - and every single card that is added to the game increases the time needed for the next card that is added - by a number of days...

The bottom line is, if the game is going to remain balanced, it is either going to have to introduce fewer upgrades with each wave, or take longer between waves (or higher a whole lot more testers).

So IMO, it isn't necessarily the fact that captains could be swapped around in STAW that screwed the game up. When the game was small, it wasn't a problem since the number of permutations was manageable enough that the designers were able to maintain a balance. It didn't become a problem until the game became bigger than they could manage.

The only other issue was that the game lost all thematic meaning. Faction penalties, being more or less negligible, meant that every build borrowed the best of the best from various factions, and even when there were more than an hundred ships to choose from, you still saw the same four or five ships, flying the same few pilots with the same collections of synergistic upgrades. Hundreds or cards in play, but only the same two dozen or so, in various iterations, showing up for any competitive play.

As to the original post however - I don't think any of what I discuss here will be a problem, since it will likely stay small enough to not matter.

All well said, but thats not the point in which Attack Wing failed, and it could have been a great game despite your point, it would just have made it less balanced than X-Wing. However, if everything else would have been good, the damaged could have been minimized, but the other flaws are why X-Wing and Armada (which has Captains as upgrades) are huge sucesses and Attack Wing sell mediocore.

Attack Wing certainly failed on several points. One point which was originally intended by the designers as a corrective feature (correcting what the designers regarded as one of X-Wing's weaknesses ), was to intentionally make attack dice more (statistically) effective than defense dice. This was an innovation intended to make game rounds quicker and more decisive - avoiding a caricatured perception of X-wing as flying around a bunch of rocks shooting uselessly at each other until the time ran out. The moment they brought out ships that could fire a (modifiable) 6 dice attack at range 3 in a 360 degree arc, mounted on a ship with the highest hull value in the game and able to move in any direction (every round) - the ability to put the best pilots in the game on these monstrosities, more or less demonstrated what was most "wrong" with the game.

I think Attack Wing failed (to retain players, as opposed to how it failed mechanically as a game) because it couldn't decide which marketing model it was going to use - that of primarily a space combat game like X-Wing , or that of a Deck building game like Magic The Gathering . I think it hoped to capitalize on mixing the best of both - but it ended up marginalizing the original fans of the game - who were mostly people whose interested in a Star Trek flavored, table-top, aerial combat game, but found after a year that they were had somehow invested in what was rapidly becoming a Deck building that you won or lost based on whether or not you had the latest game changing upgrades.

Re: Armada. Opinions vary. I purchased Armada and played in a couple of tournaments, and found two things: 1) it was a well thought out representation of capital ship combat, significantly exceeding Attack Wing in every conceivable aspect, and 2) Capital Ship combat even when done right, wasn't as fun as the "dog fight" flying of X-Wing. I waited months for the game to come out, thinking it would be replace in my heart the hole left by Attack Wing - but when it did come out, great as the game was, it ended up being so different from Attack Wing, that I couldn't think of it in terms of competing with it in any way. I don't think a lot of people left Attack Wing to play Armada. Rather I think there were a lot of people like me - who left Attack Wing because Attack Wing began to (as those of us who can remember the 70s sometimes say) suck .

I really like the idea of having pilots independent from ships. Even though this is a balancing nightmare, for us players it shouldn't be - only for the designers. Or is there another reason which I fail to see here?

I really like the idea of having pilots independent from ships. Even though this is a balancing nightmare, for us players it shouldn't be - only for the designers. Or is there another reason which I fail to see here?

This whole thing is certainly an interesting intellectual exercise for someone to take on, but personally the underlying simplicity of the game is one of the key attractions to X-Wing. I don't see any reason to undertake this massive effort, and for a more narrative game I feel like it would be easier to convert/mash-up the X-Wing rules and the Star Wars RPG rules (especially on large ships). Piloting checks to reduce the difficulty of maneuvers, rather than stress get black die on actions, gunnery actions to add dice to attacks, etc...

Of course that then begs the question, why not just play the RPG since you are essentially just using the ships for a physical representation.

Of course that then begs the question, why not just play the RPG since you are essentially just using the ships for a physical representation.

The RPG involves a lot of stuff other than space combat. I like the simplified rules for space combat in this game, that's why I'm keeping them.

One more pilot:

Edit: better image.

And another. Yes, the ace Y-Wing pilots will have elite upgrade.

I don't agree with the point cost of that base B-Wing at all. That's WAY too high. Why do people think the current point cost of the B-Wing is too low?

I don't agree with the point cost of that base B-Wing at all. That's WAY too high. Why do people think the current point cost of the B-Wing is too low?

I'm listening.

PS: Have in mind that the ship can take 2 more damage now.

I don't agree with the point cost of that base B-Wing at all. That's WAY too high. Why do people think the current point cost of the B-Wing is too low?

I'm listening.

PS: Have in mind that the ship can take 2 more damage now.

The issue I find is, if you were to stick someone like Keyan Farlander on there, it becomes a 35 point ship that can still die very very fast at 1 agility. I've actually never had an issue with the hitpoints or cost of the B-Wing, it's the one ship that is very very well balanced for what it costs in points. I say keep it at original hitpoints and point cost. If you would like, make it a 23 point ship with the Crew option. I wouldn't make it more than 22 point base, or the cost of the pilots that fly it need to be reduced. We don't see a lot of B-Wing aces right now primarily because their point cost is a little high. At 31 points, Ten Nunb is pretty expensive, especially when he can essentially get popped in a single round of firing right at the beginning when focused down with three ships due to his agility being so low.

I do like what you did with the other ships though, adjusting their point costs seem pretty good. I honestly feel the B-Wing was best left untouched. 25 points would be suitable for the health it has (I honestly didn't see the health when I saw it), but I think it's too much. More than the K-Wing has, and the K-Wing, canonically, was beefier than the B-Wing.

I don't agree with the point cost of that base B-Wing at all. That's WAY too high. Why do people think the current point cost of the B-Wing is too low?

I'm listening.

PS: Have in mind that the ship can take 2 more damage now.

The issue I find is, if you were to stick someone like Keyan Farlander on there, it becomes a 35 point ship that can still die very very fast at 1 agility. I've actually never had an issue with the hitpoints or cost of the B-Wing, it's the one ship that is very very well balanced for what it costs in points. I say keep it at original hitpoints and point cost. If you would like, make it a 23 point ship with the Crew option. I wouldn't make it more than 22 point base, or the cost of the pilots that fly it need to be reduced. We don't see a lot of B-Wing aces right now primarily because their point cost is a little high. At 31 points, Ten Nunb is pretty expensive, especially when he can essentially get popped in a single round of firing right at the beginning when focused down with three ships due to his agility being so low.

I do like what you did with the other ships though, adjusting their point costs seem pretty good. I honestly feel the B-Wing was best left untouched. 25 points would be suitable for the health it has (I honestly didn't see the health when I saw it), but I think it's too much. More than the K-Wing has, and the K-Wing, canonically, was beefier than the B-Wing.

If you sum the pilot's cost + the new ships, you will see everything will be more expensive. I think squads that costed 100 points before will cost about 120 points in the new system.

The new K-Wing will probably be beefier than the official card.

the K-Wing, canonically, was beefier than the B-Wing.

Well, canonically the K Wing doesn't exist...

BTW, the new B-Wing numbers are based on the ship stats from X-Wing Alliance.

PS: look the new B-Wing card (I forgot to add the "ship ability" to the card earlier).

the K-Wing, canonically, was beefier than the B-Wing.

Well, canonically the K Wing doesn't exist...

In the new canon, most of the ships and characters currently in game don't exist.

BTW, the new B-Wing numbers are based on the ship stats from X-Wing Alliance.

PS: look the new B-Wing card (I forgot to add the "ship ability" to the card earlier).

Ok, that's a pretty **** strong ability. I do like that. See it increased the point cost. I hadn't realized the squad cost would be higher. Hrm.