It's hard to put it into words but I think, to me, Star Wars is highly advanced analog technology vs Star Trek's highly advanced digital technology.

As far as encryption goes, yes they have it but I don't think it's anything like we have now. Now we have commercial grade encryption that unless you have the key it takes massive amounts of computer power years to crack. I see star wars encryption more like a simpler basic encryption that would be easy to beat today in our digital world, but would be cutting edge for an advanced analog world.

The challenge there, as noted above, is that at least in our world, we know from experience that takes far less computing power to create and use very hard encryption, than it does to create artificial intelligence. So, unless there's something very different in the Star Wars world... they have droids with very deep AI, so they have the computer technology for very fast very complex encryption.

"In our world" is the key difference there though. We live in a digital world and in a digital world encryption is easy to use because didgital systems excell at the types of calculations that encryption requires.

I'm a fan of the fallout games and I see a lot of similarities between the robots of star wars and the robots there. They're analog, complete with vacuum tubes and everything. There's no saying what an analog robot would be able to do with encryption. Digital systems are all yes/no, 1/0, on/off. Analog are yes, no, maybe, and I don't know. A digital AI requires massive amounts of processing power because it can't just work. It has to work through every yes/no possibility. An analog or star wars droid doesn't have to use probability calculations and massive amounts of processing to figure out what to do. It can use that maybe, and I don't know. So while a Star Wars robot can be a sentient entity, much like a living creature, there's no evidence that it has the massive amounts of processing power like you see in Star Trek's Data or a modern super computer.

If a player can wrap their heads around things not being digital then it gets a lot easier to understand Star Wars technology. Granted this is easier to do for those of us who didn't grow up surrounded by everything digital.

And in a world where encryption isn't easy, then it makes complete sense not to do things wirelesly because of all of the droids out there like you said.

It's hard to put it into words but I think, to me, Star Wars is highly advanced analog technology vs Star Trek's highly advanced digital technology.

As far as encryption goes, yes they have it but I don't think it's anything like we have now. Now we have commercial grade encryption that unless you have the key it takes massive amounts of computer power years to crack. I see star wars encryption more like a simpler basic encryption that would be easy to beat today in our digital world, but would be cutting edge for an advanced analog world.

The challenge there, as noted above, is that at least in our world, we know from experience that takes far less computing power to create and use very hard encryption, than it does to create artificial intelligence. So, unless there's something very different in the Star Wars world... they have droids with very deep AI, so they have the computer technology for very fast very complex encryption.

"In our world" is the key difference there though. We live in a digital world and in a digital world encryption is easy to use because didgital systems excell at the types of calculations that encryption requires.

I'm a fan of the fallout games and I see a lot of similarities between the robots of star wars and the robots there. They're analog, complete with vacuum tubes and everything. There's no saying what an analog robot would be able to do with encryption. Digital systems are all yes/no, 1/0, on/off. Analog are yes, no, maybe, and I don't know. A digital AI requires massive amounts of processing power because it can't just work. It has to work through every yes/no possibility. An analog or star wars droid doesn't have to use probability calculations and massive amounts of processing to figure out what to do. It can use that maybe, and I don't know. So while a Star Wars robot can be a sentient entity, much like a living creature, there's no evidence that it has the massive amounts of processing power like you see in Star Trek's Data or a modern super computer.

If a player can wrap their heads around things not being digital then it gets a lot easier to understand Star Wars technology. Granted this is easier to do for those of us who didn't grow up surrounded by everything digital.

And in a world where encryption isn't easy, then it makes complete sense not to do things wirelesly because of all of the droids out there like you said.

So how do things work in the Star Wars "reality" that allows analog to do there what so far we've seen zero sign it can do in ours? A droid brain made from vacuum tubes in our world would be the size of a town and require as much power as a city, giving off enough heat to cause its own weather. In a world with analog computers (and no fundamental differences from ours), it would take days, not seconds or minutes, to calculate a hyperspace jump.

On the flip side, the human brain possesses a MASSIVE amount of computer power and storage, it's just set up in a way that's totally different from what we call a computer at present, running massively parallel, and optimized for different things.

It's hard to put it into words but I think, to me, Star Wars is highly advanced analog technology vs Star Trek's highly advanced digital technology.

As far as encryption goes, yes they have it but I don't think it's anything like we have now. Now we have commercial grade encryption that unless you have the key it takes massive amounts of computer power years to crack. I see star wars encryption more like a simpler basic encryption that would be easy to beat today in our digital world, but would be cutting edge for an advanced analog world.

The challenge there, as noted above, is that at least in our world, we know from experience that takes far less computing power to create and use very hard encryption, than it does to create artificial intelligence. So, unless there's something very different in the Star Wars world... they have droids with very deep AI, so they have the computer technology for very fast very complex encryption.

"In our world" is the key difference there though. We live in a digital world and in a digital world encryption is easy to use because didgital systems excell at the types of calculations that encryption requires.

I'm a fan of the fallout games and I see a lot of similarities between the robots of star wars and the robots there. They're analog, complete with vacuum tubes and everything. There's no saying what an analog robot would be able to do with encryption. Digital systems are all yes/no, 1/0, on/off. Analog are yes, no, maybe, and I don't know. A digital AI requires massive amounts of processing power because it can't just work. It has to work through every yes/no possibility. An analog or star wars droid doesn't have to use probability calculations and massive amounts of processing to figure out what to do. It can use that maybe, and I don't know. So while a Star Wars robot can be a sentient entity, much like a living creature, there's no evidence that it has the massive amounts of processing power like you see in Star Trek's Data or a modern super computer.

If a player can wrap their heads around things not being digital then it gets a lot easier to understand Star Wars technology. Granted this is easier to do for those of us who didn't grow up surrounded by everything digital.

And in a world where encryption isn't easy, then it makes complete sense not to do things wirelesly because of all of the droids out there like you said.

So how do things work in the Star Wars "reality" that allows analog to do there what so far we've seen zero sign it can do in ours? A droid brain made from vacuum tubes in our world would be the size of a town and require as much power as a city, giving off enough heat to cause its own weather. In a world with analog computers (and no fundamental differences from ours), it would take days, not seconds or minutes, to calculate a hyperspace jump.

On the flip side, the human brain possesses a MASSIVE amount of computer power and storage, it's just set up in a way that's totally different from what we call a computer at present, running massively parallel, and optimized for different things.

And the real version of the power cell for a lightsaber is the size of a building and can't maintain a power output for more than a few seconds. I didn't say that Star Wars droids had vucuum tubes. I said that I think they're an analog technology that's quite advanced and able to make the calculations. I don't think that advanced encryption is a part of star wars so the technology isn't able to do real-time encryption.

I don't have to explain how it works. I accept the type of technology it is with it's strengths and limitations. You obviously have a different view of what Star Wars is than I do, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm a compulsive worldbuilder, and the pieces all need to fit. Anything that's fundamentally different in another "reality" to allow for one thing, will also change other parts of that reality.

Take for example those settings where someone says "electricity doesn't work here, but otherwise everything is the same". Really? How the heck do atoms work, then? How does matter have solidity?

Regarding the lightsaber energy cell... better battery tech is a matter of progression or extension of how things work in our reality. Conversely, computers capable of strong AI but the utter lack of fast, complex encryption is an inversion of how things work in our reality.

E: typo.

It's hard to put it into words but I think, to me, Star Wars is highly advanced analog technology vs Star Trek's highly advanced digital technology.

As far as encryption goes, yes they have it but I don't think it's anything like we have now. Now we have commercial grade encryption that unless you have the key it takes massive amounts of computer power years to crack. I see star wars encryption more like a simpler basic encryption that would be easy to beat today in our digital world, but would be cutting edge for an advanced analog world.

Encryption in Star Wars would have an AI that can rewrite itself when it detects intrusion. Star Wars has thinking machines that are capable of flying starfighters in combat and making all the sorts of decisions needed real time absent any intervention. The computing power of Star Wars tech to ours is like atom bombs next to candles.

It's hard to put it into words but I think, to me, Star Wars is highly advanced analog technology vs Star Trek's highly advanced digital technology.

As far as encryption goes, yes they have it but I don't think it's anything like we have now. Now we have commercial grade encryption that unless you have the key it takes massive amounts of computer power years to crack. I see star wars encryption more like a simpler basic encryption that would be easy to beat today in our digital world, but would be cutting edge for an advanced analog world.

Encryption in Star Wars would have an AI that can rewrite itself when it detects intrusion. Star Wars has thinking machines that are capable of flying starfighters in combat and making all the sorts of decisions needed real time absent any intervention. The computing power of Star Wars tech to ours is like atom bombs next to candles.

A human is capable of flying starfighters in combat and making all the sorts of decisions needed real time absent any intervention but that doesn't mean that a human mind can rapidly decode or perform cryptological tasks. We obviously have different views on how droids and computers in star wars work. None of us are wrong, we just look at things differently.

I think you are wrong, you are so low balling the processing power that goes on in Star Wars it makes me laugh. Encryption/Decryption is child's play next to a functioning independent AI.

I think you are wrong, you are so low balling the processing power that goes on in Star Wars it makes me laugh. Encryption/Decryption is child's play next to a functioning independent AI.

Cool, I'm glad I could bring some joy to your day. Personally, I think you have a narrow definition of what an AI is. And our differing viewpoints explain why we don't agree on this aspect of Star Wars.

A robot that can think and translate 6 million languages pretty much says to me running a decryption on some encryption algorithm would be chump change.

Being able to calculate the changing gravitational variables over tens of thousands of light years in a couple minutes says decryption would be a big processing yawn.

Keeping the toilets flushing and doors opening on a planet sized spaceship would laugh at an encryption key of our era.

Good points

Any further word on that PDF on communications?

I'm a compulsive worldbuilder, and the pieces all need to fit. Anything that's fundamentally different in another "reality" to allow for one thing, will also change other parts of that reality.

Take for example those settings where someone says "electricity doesn't work here, but otherwise everything is the same". Really? How the heck do atoms work, then? How does matter have solidity?

Regarding the lightsaber energy cell... better battery tech is a matter of progression or extension of how things work in our reality. Conversely, computers capable of strong AI but the utter lack of fast, complex encryption is an inversion of how things work in our reality.

E: typo.

Not a fan of Discworld then, are you?...

I`m curious to know how you would explain the Force, Hyperspace, Lightsabers, the seemingly non-existence of vacuum in space from time to time and the existence of sound in space.

It doesn`t matter that none of it could work or exist in our real world and our reality by the laws of physics. the Galaxy has its own laws of reality.

I am educated as an Animator with a bachelors degree in traditional animation. Storytelling, character developement and fiction was a big part of that education. We learned that all stories exist within its own universe and has its own laws of reality and what could and could not happen in that world is based on that. Some fictional worlds are mimicing the real world, why others try to be as far from is as can be. This goes for everything from sit-coms to high fantasy.

Realism in the sense of storytelling is not breaking the already established laws and rules of the fictional universe in question. Realism therefore in this sense, by that definition has nothing to do with the laws of physics and reality. Nothing!

Star Wars is Space Opera and Science Fantasy. It has rules and laws based on the established fictional universe, but by definition of the given genres, the limitations of those laws and rules are very flexible and loose within the boarders of those genres.

So Hyperspace, just as an example, has its laws and rules in the story universe of Star Wars and to keep story-realism in Star Wars we should stick to those laws! But those rules can be bent, with some effort, clever writing(and suspension of disbelief) by explanations that fit the universe and the progression of the story.

If you for example break it down into plausible elements of the genre and the Star Wars story universe you can take the Force, mix it with Hyperspace and add a dash of Mystery and Unknown Power of Ancient Science and the Occasional Anomolies of the vast Galaxy to create just about anything that does not break the given genre and story platform.

This is Space Opera with Magic in it, it is absolutely not Hard Science Fiction, so throw out all the chemistry and physics of reality and replace it with the science of fiction.

Enjoy.

So, here’s another thought. What if they’re beyond quantum computing in the Star Wars universe?

I mean, quantum computing turns modern “strong cryptography” into swiss cheese child’s play to crack. There are efforts to create types of cryptography that are resistant to quantum attacks, but what if there aren’t any? Or, if they do exist, but they’re just not feasible to implement, even with the resources of an entire planet to throw behind them?

Suddenly, even the strongest cryptography we have today might be something that could help a little bit against simpler attacks, but if the attacker has quantum computing chips, then all bets are off.

Quantum computing chips could also help make true “strong” AIs possible, and might lead to other advances in computing in all sorts of areas that are not related to cryptography.

At that point, I think you could reasonably have a galaxy where we see the kinds of things that happen in the Star Wars movies.

Verisimilitude -- "It is one thing to suspend your disbelief; it is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead."

Internal consistency and coherence matter, in any sort of fiction.

Telling us that a world has strong AI like the droids we see, but utterly lacks other things that are far more easy to accomplish with the same science/technology that would be needed for said strong AI... makes absolutely no sense. You need a very very good explanation for it that doesn't break nine other things in the setting, or you're just asking the reader / audience to accept things on the basis of "because I said so".

Taking hyperspace as another example -- there are physics theories that would in some sense allow for a hyperspace-like phenomenon, so as a concept, it's not totally outre. Regardless, in the case of fiction, if you show me that hyperspace works a certain way in this story, don't expect me to blindly accept that hyperspace works some other way the next time just because it's more convenient to the story you want to tell or the spectacle you want to show off that next time.

No fictional setting other than pure outright faerie takes should ever have to fall back on "just-so stories".

EDIT: that said, we're way off the beaten path when it comes to the OP's actual discussion, so unless the OP says "keep going", I'm going to drop this, I'm getting into the territory of my personal bugbears regarding fiction and starting to repeat things I've posted on other threads.

Any further word on that PDF on communications?

If you are speaking of mine, I'm working on it daily. Tidying things up (rewording stuff that makes sense to me but may not be clear to others) while fixing the little things I've still got highlighted.

Until then there is a PDF in my signature that has no game mechanics but has my views (and some others at this forum that contributed) regarding the current topic. InfoTech.

So, here’s another thought. What if they’re beyond quantum computing in the Star Wars universe?

I mean, quantum computing turns modern “strong cryptography” into swiss cheese child’s play to crack. There are efforts to create types of cryptography that are resistant to quantum attacks, but what if there aren’t any? Or, if they do exist, but they’re just not feasible to implement, even with the resources of an entire planet to throw behind them?

Suddenly, even the strongest cryptography we have today might be something that could help a little bit against simpler attacks, but if the attacker has quantum computing chips, then all bets are off.

Quantum computing chips could also help make true “strong” AIs possible, and might lead to other advances in computing in all sorts of areas that are not related to cryptography.

At that point, I think you could reasonably have a galaxy where we see the kinds of things that happen in the Star Wars movies.

That would be an internally coherent and consistent explanation, that is also not an unexplained inversion of things we know to be true in "our reality".

Just as something that touches on my earlier comment that "the future is a moving target".

Sorry for cross posting but this thread seems to be addressing an issue I brought up in "Range Bands" and that is what appears to be a serious disconnect in the RAW regarding communications, sensors and even weapon ranges - especially in the vague wanderings of the planetary and space scales. (Why they even avoided simply having a "Space Scale" instead of coupling it with Planetary and then making them all different is a question all its own.)

Sensor ranges seem ridiculously short, as do communications ranges. Short ranges sensors, found on a majority of ships, cant even see across the width of a typical world much less far enough into space to do any good. Even long range sensors cant reach a planet's moon, much less detect the approach of an enemy fleet inbound from another planet in the system.

Ship communications cant reach a planet from barely beyond orbit, certainly cant reach another world or further unless you have some contraption.

Ships in formation can lose communications with one another if they wander off a mere few hundred kilometers, nothing in terms of space.. even just off in orbit a bit.

Weapons can shoot as far as a ship can track or even detect targets. Some missiles can fire on targets the sensors cant detect?

Whats the deal? Im not all that familiar with the system ill admit, only 2 sessions under my belt as GM but man, Im missing something big here.

Im tempted to dump the whole range/sensor/comms mechanic and start from scratch but surely somebody has the same perception and has put a fix together by now? The game has been around for a while.

Last Session -

GM: You approach the planet and put the ship in orbit.

Player: Ok, lets get our contact on the comms. How distant can we do that, we want to avoid orbiting patrol craft if possible for the moment.

GM: Well, hmm, you medium range scanners, so that's medium range comms too. Book says a few hundred kilometers..lets make it 800km range.

Player: Huh? We are in orbit right? Not landing? Satellites orbit at like 36,000km!

GM: Well this isn't our reality, things are different. You'll have to come in beneath 800km to reach the contact.

Player: Wait a minute, that's the same medium range as the weapons use?

GM: Yes, space weapons

Player: So in order to use the radio we have to come within the planet's defense battery range?

Player2: Not to mention their sensor range

GM: Well, yes, the ranges all relate together.

Player: Laser range = sensor range= communications range? That's ridiculous.. there should be a factor of like 100 between them or something!

GM: Don't look at me, Im just following the rules here.

Sorry for cross posting but this thread seems to be addressing an issue I brought up in "Range Bands" and that is what appears to be a serious disconnect in the RAW regarding communications, sensors and even weapon ranges - especially in the vague wanderings of the planetary and space scales. (Why they even avoided simply having a "Space Scale" instead of coupling it with Planetary and then making them all different is a question all its own.)

One of the forum members is doing some fantastic work in this space, but I don’t want to say anything more about it than that. I’ll let him speak up for himself.

That's great to know Brad. I'm interested to see what his take on things is. It's always great to see different points of view.

Almost done! Brad has been helping the project along. It might be available today (fingers crossed) but I would prefer to run it by my editing committee first (Brad)

It will probably go into a different thread for further discussion, but I will try to remember to announce it here also.

Working on it now last big hurdle is outlining some symbols since they looked poor when printed.

Thanks for the interest.

Can't wait, any help would be graciously accepted and appreciated.

Are people that have a hard time using the range bands used to cruncier, less narrative systems?

No, not really. I'm just used to systems where a given vehicle with a given performance level will travel consistently over a given distance in a specific time period. I know, apparently is a really foreign concept here where a vehicle can travel hundreds or even thousands of times faster based on how far away it is from an object. Any consistency of performance must be manufactured by the gm.

Sorry in advance, I couldn't resist that.

No, not really. I'm just used to systems where a given vehicle with a given performance level will travel consistently over a given distance in a specific time period. I know, apparently is a really foreign concept here where a vehicle can travel hundreds or even thousands of times faster based on how far away it is from an object. Any consistency of performance must be manufactured by the gm.

Sorry in advance, I couldn't resist that.

I don't think FFG directly accounted for gravitational red shift, no, but I think range bands are abstract enough to cover it.

Let us keep in mind that range bands aren't all the same size! So while the distances covered and the speed at which is done truly is static (red shift aside,) the method the game uses to describe those things is a simplified mechanic.