While it would be nice to see certain ships being available for both sides for the sake of flavour, I don't think the Rebel only Nebulon-B is really much of an issue. That can be house-ruled anytime, and frankly, there isn't a thing only the Neb can do and for example a Gladiator can't... So from a gameplay perspective, the Imp Neb wouldn't have much of a role.

jhox, you know if you keep bottleing up your emotions like that it can have long lasting impact on your health. So please for the sake of your heart don't hold back tell us how you really feel.

Just kidding of course, I actually agree with much of your very impassioned comments. It seems to me that most people who take issue with the Raider do so because they find the concept of FFG making a ship offensive on a personal level. So they look for excuses to bash it. If it was first featured in Rogue One for example... then people would of loved it.

Also some people seem to forget that everything FFG makes has to be approved by LFL/Disney, every model, every card, all the artwork ect... It all has to be run past them, and anyone who thinks LFL/Disney is going to let something iconic be changed is fooling themselves.

That's why you'll never see a YT-1200 in S&V and you'll never see a CR-90 or Neb B on the Imperial side. Which as others have pointed out is questionable since it's not actually canon that the Neb B is in fact an Imperial ship in the first place.

Then there's the fact that it's a god-**** medical frigate in the movies. They even call it that at Endor. It's a hospital ship. The only reason it turns up to Endor is because the entire Rebel fleet was committed to the fight - even the transports from Hoth. This was their valiant, last-ditch attempt to bring down the Empire. If the one Nebulon B we see in the movies was actually a hospital ship, then I am very, very curious as to why everyone so desperately wants it to be some badass Imperial frigate.

This exactly. You beat me to it jhox. I get the argument people are making, and depending on the day, I too would like to see CR90's and Nebs in the Empire's arsenal. ...

But...in the course of context, we never once see any of these ships in service to the Empire. We do see the CR design -- owned by dignitaries as personal transports. Hmm, not exactly a mainline vessel of war.

We do see one Neb B; a design so dangerous, so terror inducing, so dedicated to the art of war, that the one model the rebels manage to capture (if you embrace the "stolen from the Imps canon) is turned into a hospital ship.

I'm sorry folks, but really, at the end of the day, no matter what argument anyone might try to employ to justify why they think these designs (or any, for that matter) should be included for either faction really just comes down to "I want!" Everything past that is just for show.

And, I suspect FFG is fully aware of the card printing services, which allow anyone to make any ship aligned to any faction in house rules games. Nothing is stopping anyone from using these models for whatever faction they wish. As to the paint scheme, repaint it. It happens. There's even a thread or six on the topic.

But the idea of the visible difference in factions becoming mainstream to the game, even on tournament level? I highly doubt that will happen.

Also, one last note on the "stolen from the Imps" defense. The Empire, just like many real world dictatorships, was saturated with loyalty officers. It's in the EU canon along with everything else brought up. And the Empire kept an eye on its military, assigning anyone of "questionable" loyalty to aged, out-classed, backwater ships whose loss would be of little to no consequence. Even then, to successfully take one of those ships in a mutiny was rare. Yes, the Empire had droves of its people defecting, but **** few of them left with anything more than what they were wearing when they ran. So, arguably, if you wanted to use that in game, you could say that the Rebels should be limited to how many CR-90's and Nebs they can deploy in any given game, since they only had a handful of CR-90's and (canonically) one Neb B in their entire fleet. But the Imperial player can field as many of these iconic Rebel ships in his or her fleet as they like, even though they're never seen in them.

Er...wait. What?

P.S. Sorry if that came across as snotty. Wasn't meant to be.

You could take this deal.

But it's a trap.

Seriously. Or, you know, when Rebels can start using Imperial-class Star Destroyers Imps can start using Nebulon-B Frigates. Since "everyone knows" multiple ISDs were stolen by the Rebellion and used in the Galactic Civil War (e.g. the Emancipator which was captained by General Lando Calrissian).

Whether the Rebels get Rhymer or ISDs from the deal, they get the much much better end of the stick.

Given how fragile the Nebulon B is, and how for the same points I'd much rather have a GSD (if I could take one with the Rebels), I'm inclined to think the best option is to just give them to the Imperials for free.

It's a gift, have fun with it, play it a bunch. What could go wrong? What's that? No, no, don't worry about the huge fragile sides or lack of a redirect. Nothing will go wrong. I promise.

So? It's still where we get the more detailed version of the Gladiator from. FFG did not redesign its look. It took it from that hardly-strong source. Also, the Victory-class, which was re-canonized in name in Tarkin.

So, to clarify, because I presumably have given the wrong impression here: I'm fine with FFG lifting stuff from the EU. Completely fine with it. Taking the Victory or the Gladiator from whatever source is great - they're good-looking ships that fit with the theme of the Imperial fleet.

What I'm less keen on is the "But in <pick your Expanded Universe publication> Wedge Antilles totally started out as a TIE Fighter pilot, so we should get him as the leader of a TIE squadron!" point-of-view; namely, that because it happened in the EU, it should therefore be represented in 'Armada' (or any other FFG game). Which is essentially the argument that the original poster is making. In the EU, the Nebulon B is an Imperial ship, therefore it should be in this game, too.

Yes, there is a salient difference there. Obviously not everything in the EU can (or should) be represented in the game. Much of the EU is absolute crap, and I'm glad much of it is gone.

For my part, I'm not as strident as the OP that it's 'ticking me off' that the Neb B isn't available to the Empire. I'm just saying that I wouldn't mind its inclusion. I'm equally happy with the interpretation that the Nebulon B was once put into service as an escort craft, but that the Empire has since moved on. That would directly contradict what's written in the West End Games Sourcebook, which said that the Neb-B was a direct response to the rebel threat. That would make the Neb-B a much newer ship, and therefore less likely to be taken out of service so soon.

Finally, 'Armada' is a bloody miniatures war game which has been very carefully designed to evoke the feel of the epic battles from the Original Trilogy - and to some extent, the Prequels. It is not some simulation of a galaxy-spanning war operation where every single little thing must be modelled in. So what if the Nebulon was actually an Imperial ship at some point in the Expanded Universe? 'Armada' isn't an academic recreation of every possible fight that might possibly occur in the Star Wars universe - it's an abstracted, enjoyable war game about ragtag Rebel warbands taking on brutal Imperial armadas.

If FFG decide to release the Nebulon as an Imperial vessel, then that's great! Hopefully, they'll get a new miniature to represent it, maybe one with more armour and fewer exposed internals. But I really doubt it will make the game somehow much better, or more "realistic" - if that's what you want, then you've arguably picked the wrong franchise.

I hear where you're coming from on the design aspect or the fact that there is no need to model everything from the EU. I don't think that the OP is even making that case, so I'm not sure who you're arguing against when you raise that point. (Maybe I skimmed over someone else making that point?)

But, there's still the very nature of the war that were depicting. It's a civil war. Do you agree with that? That would imply some overlap as well as drastic differences - the Empire would not press civilian craft into service, whereas the Rebellion would have no choice but to do that.

I use 3x Neb B and 3 x CR-90 as part of my Imperial fleet all the time so why not. Forget FFG game police,use your imagination That is what being a gamer is all about.

IMAGINATION.............................

I hear where you're coming from on the design aspect or the fact that there is no need to model everything from the EU. I don't think that the OP is even making that case, so I'm not sure who you're arguing against when you raise that point. (Maybe I skimmed over someone else making that point?)

But, there's still the very nature of the war that were depicting. It's a civil war. Do you agree with that? That would imply some overlap as well as drastic differences - the Empire would not press civilian craft into service, whereas the Rebellion would have no choice but to do that.

So, this post of mine was directly in response to DScipio's particularly eloquent and well-rounded post, at the top of the page, nothing you had said - and nothing that the OP had particularly said. The part of my post you're referencing refers to the below quote:

DScipio: And further: Where did the Rebels get the Neb-B? When they encounter it the Empire even had doubt the Rebels could build X-Wings! The Assualt-II is the first try of the Rebels to BUILD their warships en masse.

Hence my opinion that representing every part of the conflict, down to the logistics, would be a bit rubbish.

In terms of the "Civil War" nature of it... So, yes, technically it's called the "Galactic Civil War" (* - see below) but I don't think too many parallels should be drawn between it and real-world civil wars. This all comes down to theme for me, as usual: Star Wars is good against evil, big against small, aggression against kindness. The ships are an extension of the same themes that exist between lightsabers: blue for the good guys, red for the baddies. Now, the EU tries to explain that there's some technical reason for Sith lightsabers being red. My stance is that I don't need a reason - they're red because they belong to the baddies. They are a visual representation of the differences between the two sides of the fight.

You're absolutely right that the reality of the Rebels' attempts to fight the Empire would mandate them using stolen and left-over Imperial technology. But Star Wars is divorced from reality, and expecting realism in, say, the nature of the Rebels' attempts to build a fleet, is just as out of place as expecting realism in the use of the Force, or even the dynamics of space flight itself - X-Wings and TIE Fighters pull manoeuvres in the vacuum of space that only atmospheric craft with wings and lift-forces could ever manage - because it's not about how realistic a depiction of a space battle it is, it's about the adventures of our heroes and the thrills of seeing them do heroic things.

* "Galactic Civil War is also an EU term not found in the movies - I remain a movie-purist to the extent that I don't consider the Prequels to be canon, I'm just a nasty old man.

Be patient. When we Imperial players get the Nebulon-B2, those Rebels will wish they waited a while before they stared stealing frigates from the yards. Seriously, if the Empire is ever going to see their own frigate, I think the B2 is it.

Gah, the B2 - much like the TIE Punisher, in the regard that it's a perfectly fine design of vessel in its own right. But when you are aware of it's design process, namely "Take this bit and add more of them onto it," it just looks stupid.

One of the XWvTF designs that I really liked was the CR92A, because it looked like an advanced version of the CR90 - like they had taken the design that worked and modernised it, made it sleeker, built it with better materials and new techniques.

Rather than the B2. Where they just shouted "put a donk on it!" and called it a day. Again, if I'd seen the B2 before seeing the B, I'd think it looked great. Sadly, though, that wasn't the case.

How are you comparing the Punisher to the B2? Have you even looked at the thing, or are you thinking about all those lazy kitbashes? This is the ingame model of the B2:

Shall I point out some of the details?

+ Central spar is thicker, so not as vulnerable

+ Command citadel is larger

+ Firepower spread is wider, more and heavier guns on wing spars

+ Hangar is built-into the design instead of inferred like on the Neb-B of TIE Fighter.

+ Engine bank is inverted with larger engine bells.

+ Shield generator under the main body, dedicated concussion missile battery

+ Streamlined wingpods, not container-assemble-spar like on the Nebulon design

This is not a copy-paste job like the TIE Punisher/Interidctor. That craft is literally more ordnance pods glued on to a cockpit pod. I can agree with your upset over the Punisher design because it is lazy, but much like a lot of the craft made for TIE Fighter there was some design sense applied to it to make it an aesthetic, pleasing craft that stands apart from the canonical designs. It is not a copy+paste job of the Nebulon. Hardly.

Here for Armada, transitioning to a new design means you can tweak the things of the base variant to make it better and different. Switching the Arcs I can imagine would be phenominal, a wider front-arc like a Star Destroyer alone would make the side arcs better protected so an incoming ship can't take advantage of them. The side arcs being smaller alone mitigates how vulnerable they are and makes the ship better protected.

Upgrading the firepower would be nice too. Two reds and two blues out the front for instance might seem like a downgrade until you can take slaved turrets to bring it up to Neb-B levels, and the ship gets more dangrous as it closes. Keep the turbolaser slot, switch out the support team for an offensive team (Cheap gunnery teams at long range? Sure!), officer slot (Intel officers!) and now you have a deadly, deisreable ship that is better than the Nebulon-B for a few more points. That's a ship I'd love to have over the stock Nebulon, because now the Empire can joust at range at a cheaper cost than forcing us to take point-bloated VSDs and ISDs.

Not hardly. The West End Games RPG mentioned the Nebulon B as being Imperial at least as far back as the publication of the Sourcebook (1987).

WEG RPG, Tie Fighter Wars and the Thrawn Trilogy are all you need.

Not hardly. The West End Games RPG mentioned the Nebulon B as being Imperial at least as far back as the publication of the Sourcebook (1987).

WEG RPG, Tie Fighter Wars and the Thrawn Trilogy are all you need.

Unless you're trying to argue that those are canon, which they never were. Not a one of them.

Midiclorians? Canon.

Jar Jar Binks? Canon.

Vader's scream of "Nooooooooooo!" Canon.

Greedo shooting first? Canon.

The West End Games RPG sourcebooks? Not Canon.

Also, on the note of this era being "The Galactic Civil War?" The Prequels were the "Galactic Civil War." Established elements of the Republic seceded, the Republic responded militarily to bring the successors back into the fold, and two armies clashed to decide their fates.

The Trilogy era was a "Rebellion." As in the American Revolutionary war. Or the Irish Land Baron wars. Or the French Revolution. It was dissidents, lead by inept and corrupt Senators who'd been put out of work by a tyrant who'd only gained power due to their own incompetence decades before, funded by the worlds those former Senators were from.

When the "war" began, it was small cells of terrorists (and yes, I'm sorry, but that term is accurate) attacking government assets using illegally purchased black market weapons. Essentially, not much more than organized riots. They used Z-95's and Y-Wings, fighters now 20 years out of date, stripped down and modified.

As the Command structure of the Empire responded more and more cruelly to these attacks, elements of its own military began to defect, but make no mistake, they didn't take their ships with them. How many TIE's did you see in the Rebel forces? How many Star Destroyers? Storm Troopers?

The Empire enslaved countless worlds, and those slaves rose up. That's not a Civil War. It's a Rebellion.

Also, at the risk of being "that guy..." If we're going to sit back and argue canon as something that should be absolute in this game, then let me refer you to (I believe?) the Imperial Sourcebook by West End Games in which it clearly stated that standard Imperial Military Doctrine was not to engage in any action unless they possessed a 3 to 1 odds ratio in their favor.

So...if we're going to play Armada by "canon," then the Imperial player should always be fielding 3 times the point value of the Rebel player. ... To be canon.

How are you comparing the Punisher to the B2? Have you even looked at the thing, or are you thinking about all those lazy kitbashes?

... It is not a copy+paste job of the Nebulon...

So, first off, here is an example of the bulk of image search results when googling "Nebulon B2":

Which is the main epitome of my distaste with the design.

As to the design you're referencing (which I think first turned up in 'Balance of Power' but I could be wrong) I'll stand by my original statement:

... it's a perfectly fine design of vessel in its own right...

... if I'd seen the B2 before seeing the B, I'd think it looked great.

Most of the features you highlighted I'm actually really fond of, for similar reasons that I really liked the CR92 - they modernise the look, make it appear more advanced and refined. The bit that annoys me is the second "keel" or fin. Again, I need to reiterate my original stance of "If I'd seen it first I'd love it", but the slapping on of an extra keel onto it just seems daft to me. I'd be much more fond of it if it stuck to just the one keel, and it was an updated design of the classic, as with the CR92, rather than a completely new class of vessel.

What works with the CR92 is that it sticks to the original shape of the CR90 - it actually trims some of the superstructure out, in fact, to achieve a more sleek silhouette. They subtly change the engine block to look more uniform - similar to the updated engine block of the Nebulon B2 - everything about it says "This was a successful design, we've refined it" as opposed to "This was a successful design, so we bolted an extra bit on."

What really doesn't work for me is the below (sorry for the crap picture):

Here, although this is a modified CR90, it still looks... dumb. They have literally just "bolted more stuff" onto it. What the hell are those curved bits meant to do? Why is the bridge section suddenly longer? How come they went to all this trouble, but didn't upgrade the firepower? All of that crap bolted onto the back elicits a similar response from me as the extra fin on the B2, or even the "quillions" on Kylo Ren's lightsaber - it seems to follow a design principle of "Put more stuff on it." Rather than the CR92, which actually goes down the route of "Take some stuff off it."

Another good example is the YT-2400. I will be honest, I loathe this ship, mostly because of the cartoonishly-oversized guns that make it look less like a freighter and more like a military gunboat. But it's a really good example of a well-designed ship. It takes the familiar layout of the Millennium Falcon and does something just slightly different with it - the cockpit is still off to one side, but is its own separate unit, and is sort-of "clasped" by the hull. The primary hull itself is still circular, but it's rounded where the Falcon has edges, and it's engine block is blockier. They've managed to design a ship which definitely looks related to something with which we're already familiar, but has a unique look in its own right. And a lot of these design choices are very similar to the list of features you pointed out about the better version of the Nebulon B2.

Let's step outside the Star Wars universe for a moment and have a look at Star Trek, specifically the Miranda-class. Now, this is one of my favourite-looking spaceships of all bloody time, I LOVE the Miranda. Its design so well suits its use in 'Wrath of Khan' as a predator, a hunter - it looks sleek and dangerous (even though it was actually originally designed the other way up to its final version, but was accidentally viewed by the art director upside-down, and he approved it in that form).

What's really clever with the Miranda, though, is the familiarity it has with the already-established Constitution-refit. The pronounced torpedo pod, the smooth lines of the saucer, the engine nacelles. The Miranda is definitely from the same family as the Constitution, but it's again this concept of taking stuff away rather than strapping stuff on. Whilst admittedly the Miranda gets the roll-bar, this is a neat, unusual design element. And, it actually lacks a separate secondary hull, and the iconic deflector dish - they've made it more compact, more focused, and that makes it look more deadly.

The Excelsior gets a similar thumbs-up from me, for similar reasons.

Unlike, say, some of the fan-designs, where they just slapped on extra nacelles and torpedo pods and engineering hulls. Just... no. No, please... step away from the pencil. Put the pencil down and walk away. Please.

No, stop...

Whyyyyyy...

Now you're just trying to hurt my feelings.

Lord save me...

Well, this thread sure has become interesting.

Seriously. Or, you know, when Rebels can start using Imperial-class Star Destroyers Imps can start using Nebulon-B Frigates. Since "everyone knows" multiple ISDs were stolen by the Rebellion and used in the Galactic Civil War (e.g. the Emancipator which was captained by General Lando Calrissian).

Whether the Rebels get Rhymer or ISDs from the deal, they get the much much better end of the stick.

Yep because what would happen is a gamer would walk into a game store and see an Armada store championship. They see the shiny ships and the great looking game. Then they get up closer to the unwashed guy with the tourney ready list with two ISDs and say "cool Imperial Fleet". "Huh, its a Rebel fleet. See Han Solo, Jan, Wedge and all those X-wings and B-Wings." Leans in and squints, "Yeah, why are the Star Destroyers fighting for the rebels?" "Cause in some EU book you never read, and that vile Disney pretends I never read the Rebels captured one." "But you have two?" ....

Potential new customer and gamer walks away leaving the Armada core set and expansions n the shelf because that looks lame. Fanboys who think their headcanon is more critical than the actual canon tend to drive away nonfanatic players in droves.

Not to mention its silly as the Rebellion was always shown has having limited resources, they are portrayed as having difficulty crewing old dreadnoughts with a required 16.000 men strong crew which is why according to the old canon they converted them to Assault Frigates which had a fraction of the crew requirements. So how is it they managed to get the 40.000 crew (including 10.000 trained officers!) per Star Destroyer needed to operate them?

Also why do Star Destroyers have a 1:3 officer to crew ratio?

Are we really just seeing title inflation in the Empire, kind of like how every third person at an Investment Bank is a Vice President?

Clearly the problem actually plaguing the Empire is classic wasteful government spending and poor personnel management. Maybe the great evil perpetrated on the galaxy by the Sith is... bureaucracy?

Also why do Star Destroyers have a 1:3 officer to crew ratio?

Are we really just seeing title inflation in the Empire, kind of like how every third person at an Investment Bank is a Vice President?

Clearly the problem actually plaguing the Empire is classic wasteful government spending and poor personnel management. Maybe the great evil perpetrated on the galaxy by the Sith is... bureaucracy?

Yes!

There's also the aspect that an ISD (in my fanboy headcanon) is a mobile strategic headquarters. It's not just a weapons platform.

Also why do Star Destroyers have a 1:3 officer to crew ratio?

Are we really just seeing title inflation in the Empire, kind of like how every third person at an Investment Bank is a Vice President?

Clearly the problem actually plaguing the Empire is classic wasteful government spending and poor personnel management. Maybe the great evil perpetrated on the galaxy by the Sith is... bureaucracy?

Want to hear something funny? The West End Sourcebooks gave the Emperor 14 dice in Bureaucracy. 2 was average. Doesn't mean anything, but I laughed the moment I read your post and that tidbit came back to me.

Gah! My apologies, it was only 12 dice, not 14.

"Unless you're trying to argue that those are canon, which they never were. Not a one of them. "

Wrong all of those products had been developed in conjunction and with the approval of Lucas Arts. At the time they were considered cannon. There are numerous articles, interviews and statements made over years affirming this. Lucas had a department within Lucas Arts helping assure and approve the cannon of these products and projects. They only lost their status as cannon when the Mouse wanted to a fresh canvas to paint on.

"Unless you're trying to argue that those are canon, which they never were. Not a one of them. "

Wrong all of those products had been developed in conjunction and with the approval of Lucas Arts. At the time they were considered cannon. There are numerous articles, interviews and statements made over years affirming this. Lucas had a department within Lucas Arts helping assure and approve the cannon of these products and projects. They only lost their status as cannon when the Mouse wanted to a fresh canvas to paint on.

Uhm...no?

"Gospel, or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history—with many off-shoots, variations and tangents—like any other well-developed mythology." ~~ Lucas Licensing's Sue Rostoni and Allan Kausch, 1994

(bold added for emphasis)

"While there are disputes among fans about what is and isn't canon, Lucas Licensing has established an internal primary canon policy which consists of the seven films and animated Star Wars series only."

Further:

"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.

The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors game-play. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.

The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them." ~~ Steve Sansweet

Additionally:

"G-canon was George Lucas canon: Considered absolute canon..." "G-canon overrided the lower levels of canon when there was a contradiction." "Games and RPG sourcebooks were a special case; the stories and general background information were themselves fully C-canon..."

So; shades of gray answer? "Yes, the books and games were once upon a time 'Continuity Canon' but not part of 'absolute canon.'"

Black and white answer? The G-Canon never shows anything to support the ideas put forth regarding the history of the ships as portrayed in these materials. This arguably puts the G-Canon at odds with the claims of the C-Canon, and as stated, the C-Canon is only canon if it is not at odds with G-Canon. Thus, the writings are not canon, and arguably never were.

Did someone say 'canon'?

I'm out of here...

I was going to say that the Neb issue has devolved to the point of the "Who shot first, Han or Greedo" level, but then I realized, at least with Han/Greedo, there actually were two G-Canon sources (alternate universe?) that make BOTH G-Canon.

With the Neb issue, there is no G-Canon source anywhere. Just fans of the series who read an RPG sourcebook, or played a couple video games. And again, to be clear, I'm one of them. I love the idea that the Rebels seized ships. I like the idea that scrapyards lied to the Empire about melting down ships and secretly gave them to the Rebels. But...as much as I wish it was that way, it's not.

....at least with Han/Greedo, there actually were two G-Canon sources (alternate universe?) that make BOTH G-Canon.

SSSSSShhhhhh!!!!

Don't SAY that! Not with J.J. Abrams around!

So, I know I've made the case that RPG books are not the most ideal source for canon, but now I'm curious. Has anyone played the current iteration of the Star Wars rpg, and what does it have to say on the issue of the origins/history of the Neb B? And does this current incarnation of the RPG fall under Disney's blanket definition of what is and is not canon?