I definateLyn side with the Nebraska being an Imperial ship. As has been said, it is not that the Rebel scum stole one or two, but lots and lots. I think if we're including the TIE Defender and Farlander then anything from X-Wingredients and TIE Fighter should be acceptable.
Plus I'd be more inclined to buy one.
Not to mention its silly as the Rebellion was always shown has having limited resources, they are portrayed as having difficulty crewing old dreadnoughts with a required 16.000 men strong crew which is why according to the old canon they converted them to Assault Frigates which had a fraction of the crew requirements. So how is it they managed to get the 40.000 crew (including 10.000 trained officers!) per Star Destroyer needed to operate them?
The reason for having 10.000 officers on a Star Destroyer, is to make sure there is still enough left to command and control the ship after Darth Vader has culled the more "incompetent" ones. 
Now, my hope is for FFG to repeat their earlier success with the Raider. I'm actually completely fine with them making up a new class of Imperial vessel that sticks to the aesthetic and design principles of those big, nasty wedges of destruction. They did so with the Gladiator, which to the best of my knowledge only appeared as a low-detailed depiction in the 'Droids' cartoon prior to its inclusion in 'Armada'. And yet - the Gladiator looks pretty iconic as an Imperial ship, and for my money, so does the Raider.
FWIW, there is no need for FFG to do that.
'Rebels' has added to canon that the Galactic Empire used the Old Republic Arquitens-class cruiser as the 'Imperial Light Cruiser' (with some reasonably significant refits).
...this is nearly the exact same size as the Nebulon-B, and is used in basically the same role.
So, I know I've made the case that RPG books are not the most ideal source for canon, but now I'm curious. Has anyone played the current iteration of the Star Wars rpg, and what does it have to say on the issue of the origins/history of the Neb B? And does this current incarnation of the RPG fall under Disney's blanket definition of what is and is not canon?
Don't even have to go to the RPGs. nuCanon says they are Rebel ships.
These versatile rebel cruisers were often used to escort rebel convoys, protecting ships from Imperial patrols with an array of powerful turbolasers and tractor beams.
(emphasis mine)
As a star wars fan they are movies and only movies and the nebs are rebel.
No idea about this crossover ship but if the Rebels get nebulon b's stolen from the empire then my fleet stole an ISD, and a Glad, and a Vic to go with my ships. You Imperials and your doctrines though can't take anything I use...because star wars and only rebels use whatever they can get.
Sounds balanced
It sounds like this thread is starting to get a bit hostile.
There's obviously no question that Rebels have used the Neb-B. Nobody is disputing that. So, making the forceful case that it's a rebel ship really doesn't address the question.
Also, people are welcome to think that it was built by ewoks, if it pleases their own headcanon. If the movies are the only thing for you - great. Enjoy. If you think that the purging of the EU was horrible, you're free to believe that too. However, please don't have a nerdrage at people based on your headcanon.
The Lucasfilm Story Group is busy bringing things into canon, and seemingly being more thorough about it than was done previously. FFG must (and should) comply with that, though they can pick and choose what elements to reflect in the games. It's probably not worth it to FFG to make an Imperial Nebulon-B, and I don't think we will (or should) see one.
In many things written before the canon reset, the Neb B was built for the Empire by Kuat Drive Yards. However since the purge, it has been recanonized that it was built by Kuat Drive Yards. That's at least what someone noticed in the reference book titled Ultimate Star Wars, which they then posted in the Canon page for the Nebulon B on Wookieepedia. It's also been written in numerous post-purge sources that Kuat Drive Yards build ships for the Empire. I guess what we don't know is how exclusive Kuat Drive Yards has been.
That said, I think that this source has some really insightful information. I'll let you judge how canon it's going to be, and if you want to see the spoiler.
It sounds like this thread is starting to get a bit hostile.
There's obviously no question that Rebels have used the Neb-B. Nobody is disputing that. So, making the forceful case that it's a rebel ship really doesn't address the question.
Also, people are welcome to think that it was built by ewoks, if it pleases their own headcanon. If the movies are the only thing for you - great. Enjoy. If you think that the purging of the EU was horrible, you're free to believe that too. However, please don't have a nerdrage at people based on your headcanon.
The Lucasfilm Story Group is busy bringing things into canon, and seemingly being more thorough about it than was done previously. FFG must (and should) comply with that, though they can pick and choose what elements to reflect in the games. It's probably not worth it to FFG to make an Imperial Nebulon-B, and I don't think we will (or should) see one.
In many things written before the canon reset, the Neb B was built for the Empire by Kuat Drive Yards. However since the purge, it has been recanonized that it was built by Kuat Drive Yards. That's at least what someone noticed in the reference book titled Ultimate Star Wars, which they then posted in the Canon page for the Nebulon B on Wookieepedia. It's also been written in numerous post-purge sources that Kuat Drive Yards build ships for the Empire. I guess what we don't know is how exclusive Kuat Drive Yards has been.
That said, I think that this source has some really insightful information. I'll let you judge how canon it's going to be, and if you want to see the spoiler.
Dont take the haters their dreams of a Rebel only ship. Now they will argue, that its perfectly thinkable, that KDY made some ships for the Rebels while supplying the Imperial Fleet.
Also why do Star Destroyers have a 1:3 officer to crew ratio?
Are we really just seeing title inflation in the Empire, kind of like how every third person at an Investment Bank is a Vice President?
Clearly the problem actually plaguing the Empire is classic wasteful government spending and poor personnel management. Maybe the great evil perpetrated on the galaxy by the Sith is... bureaucracy?
Given the frequency Lord Vader is force-choking some captain or admiral to death, a stable bolster of ascending officers seems like a healthy invest to me. The 1:3 ratio might fit on the start of any mission, but depending on their performance they might return with 1:4 or worse, a lot less body bags available and a crew list where the current captains or admirals name is only applied with non-permanent ink..
Dont take the haters their dreams of a Rebel only ship. Now they will argue, that its perfectly thinkable, that KDY made some ships for the Rebels while supplying the Imperial Fleet.
Edited by jhox
Dont take the haters their dreams of a Rebel only ship. Now they will argue, that its perfectly thinkable, that KDY made some ships for the Rebels while supplying the Imperial Fleet.
The X-wing was designed by Incom and only prototypes build. And even building more X-Wings was hard for the Rebellion:
The X-wing was originally designed by Incom Corporation for the Empire by Vors Voorhorian.
After four prototypes were extracted from Fresia during the Battle of Fresia, it first encountered Imperial forces in the Battle of Turkana.[20] Many more of the ships were liberated from an Incom assembly facility prior to the Battle of Yavin.[21] The Rebel Alliance soon began building its own X-wings in clandestine drydocks and factories scattered throughout the Outer Rim Territories, though decentralized production and the scarcity of various high-grade alloys used in the X-wing's construction meant that squadrons sometimes had to endure agonizing delays before new fighters arrived.
but out of nowhere the Rebells can somehow build whole frigates?
But its also stated that the "EF76 Nebulon-B frigate was a capital ship manufactured by Kuat Drive Yards". Not only designed. So you are thinking KDY builds them and EVERY ship is then stolen by the Rebels?
Dont take the haters their dreams of a Rebel only ship. Now they will argue, that its perfectly thinkable, that KDY made some ships for the Rebels while supplying the Imperial Fleet.
Comparing apples with X-Wings here. A treacherous designer team becoming mutinous and stealing blueprints is not exactly the same as assuming that an imperial yard like KDY would build and sell some rebell-only ships.
The X-wing was designed by Incom and only prototypes build. And even building more X-Wings was hard for the Rebellion...
... but out of nowhere the Rebells can somehow build whole frigates?
But its also stated that the "EF76 Nebulon-B frigate was a capital ship manufactured by Kuat Drive Yards". Not only designed. So you are thinking KDY builds them and EVERY ship is then stolen by the Rebels?
X-Wings clearly weren't that hard to build, given that they lost most of them at Yavin but had a load more by the time they had reached Hoth.
And, given that it refers to the X-Wings being built in "drydocks" I'm pretty sure that the ability to produce frigates didn't come "out of nowhere".
But hell, even if they didn't make any, or if they did, or whatever, I'm still not sure of your argument... Is it that despite the fact that the one ship of this class we see in the movies belongs to the Rebels and is a hospital ship, it must be included as an Imperial Warship in 'Armada' because now-disregarded Expanded Universe material stated that it was once an Imperial Ship? Does that therefore mean that because in the Expanded Universe the Rebels once stole an Imperial-class vessel, that the ISD should also be available to the Rebels in 'Armada'?
Put another way, are you saying that it is insufficient for individual players to house-rule such scenarios for their own games, and that in actual fact, the game itself would be improved as a playable experience by these changes? That competitive play would benefit from Imperial Nebulons? Why do you think that would make the game better? What is it about the Nebulon mechanically that warrants its inclusion in the Imperial fleet? Would the ability to take a Nebulon in place of or alongside a Gladiator (both cost similar amounts) make the game better and more fun, and if so, why?
I personally think that it would homogenise the two factions too much, and detract from the themes of the game itself, and is largely an unnecessary change. I would love to know what your reasons are for including it beyond "It was an Imperial ship in the expanded universe." The original poster of this thread wanted more variety for the Imperials, a concern which will likely be diminished with the announcement of the next wave, and certainly not a concern that I share myself, and neither do many others, it seems.
Comparing apples with X-Wings here. A treacherous designer team becoming mutinous and stealing blueprints is not exactly the same as assuming that an imperial yard like KDY would build and sell some rebell-only ships.
I was less trying to suggest that KDY built Nebulons for the Rebels (Rebulons), and more that just because it was originally made for the Empire, doesn't mean there's no scenario under which it might fall into the hands of the Rebels. For instance, let's say KDY had run off a prototype, which had been built but not yet outfitted with its full compliment of weaponry. If the Rebels were to steal such a vessel from the dockyard, it might well be very viable for them to turn it into a hospital ship instead of trying to arm it fully - and it might also put a halt to production for the Imperials.
You keep referring to the
The X-wing was designed by Incom and only prototypes build. And even building more X-Wings was hard for the Rebellion...
... but out of nowhere the Rebells can somehow build whole frigates?
But its also stated that the "EF76 Nebulon-B frigate was a capital ship manufactured by Kuat Drive Yards". Not only designed. So you are thinking KDY builds them and EVERY ship is then stolen by the Rebels?
X-Wings clearly weren't that hard to build, given that they lost most of them at Yavin but had a load more by the time they had reached Hoth.
And, given that it refers to the X-Wings being built in "drydocks" I'm pretty sure that the ability to produce frigates didn't come "out of nowhere".
But hell, even if they didn't make any, or if they did, or whatever, I'm still not sure of your argument... Is it that despite the fact that the one ship of this class we see in the movies belongs to the Rebels and is a hospital ship, it must be included as an Imperial Warship in 'Armada' because now-disregarded Expanded Universe material stated that it was once an Imperial Ship? Does that therefore mean that because in the Expanded Universe the Rebels once stole an Imperial-class vessel, that the ISD should also be available to the Rebels in 'Armada'?
Put another way, are you saying that it is insufficient for individual players to house-rule such scenarios for their own games, and that in actual fact, the game itself would be improved as a playable experience by these changes? That competitive play would benefit from Imperial Nebulons? Why do you think that would make the game better? What is it about the Nebulon mechanically that warrants its inclusion in the Imperial fleet? Would the ability to take a Nebulon in place of or alongside a Gladiator (both cost similar amounts) make the game better and more fun, and if so, why?
I personally think that it would homogenise the two factions too much, and detract from the themes of the game itself, and is largely an unnecessary change. I would love to know what your reasons are for including it beyond "It was an Imperial ship in the expanded universe." The original poster of this thread wanted more variety for the Imperials, a concern which will likely be diminished with the announcement of the next wave, and certainly not a concern that I share myself, and neither do many others, it seems.
You keep referring to the movies, like they are the only scoure of material, despite the fact that more sources are not only canon (for however cares about such things) but also widley accepted. Most things we see in Armada (or Clone Wars/Rebels or any other incarnation of Star Wars) is not seen in the movies. Thats mostly due to the fact, that space battles are not the focus of the movies.
I think that some (!) shared ships would make Armada better, because it would help shape the feeling of a civil war and not the war of two independ space factions. And as I said, its just silly to limit Star Wars to: The Empire has Design A and the Rebels/Republic has design B. The Emprie has no strange fetish for wedges, its just that the wedge battlecarriers developed out of the histroy of the Republic and the cooperations that supplied first the Republic and then the Empire.
And Armada could also benefit because it would make each faction stand out even more: A Nebulon-B with Imperial Officers and Titles and TIE support could be be played total different than a Rebel with their upgrades and fighters.
And what do you fear for the game by putting in shared ships and why?
You keep referring to the movies, like they are the only scoure of material, despite the fact that more sources are not only canon (for however cares about such things) but also widley accepted. Most things we see in Armada (or Clone Wars/Rebels or any other incarnation of Star Wars) is not seen in the movies. Thats mostly due to the fact, that space battles are not the focus of the movies.
I think that some (!) shared ships would make Armada better, because it would help shape the feeling of a civil war and not the war of two independ space factions. And as I said, its just silly to limit Star Wars to: The Empire has Design A and the Rebels/Republic has design B. The Emprie has no strange fetish for wedges, its just that the wedge battlecarriers developed out of the histroy of the Republic and the cooperations that supplied first the Republic and then the Empire.
And Armada could also benefit because it would make each faction stand out even more: A Nebulon-B with Imperial Officers and Titles and TIE support could be be played total different than a Rebel with their upgrades and fighters.
And what do you fear for the game by putting in shared ships and why?
In order:
I am absolutely not opposed to things being included from outside of the movies. I'm not hugely keen on some of the more ridiculous stuff from the EU, such as the Sun Crusher and a lot of "post-Endor" stuff, but there's a lot of cool stuff in there too. I just think that FFG are making the right call by being selective about what they take from the EU (or "Legends" as it's now known) - take the stuff which adds to the game, leave the stuff that doesn't.
I personally prefer the feeling of two distinct factions in Armada, rather than the "civil war" vibe - a comment I've made earlier in the thread.I'll repeat myself a little: I feel that Star Wars is less about civil war and more about good vs. evil, which is precisely why I like the lack of cross-over between factions. And I don't think it's particularly silly to limit the Imperial deisgn aesthetic - I'd even argue that it's quite important from a thematic perspective. I'll repeat myself again, just a little, but the aggressive design of Imperial ships is what makes them so "Imperial", and what gives the faction its character and theme. But this is a subjective point, one on which we're unlikely to agree.
I do have to object to the idea that by both factions having the same ship, those factions would "stand out even more" - I think that having the same ship design runs directly contrary to that, almost by definition. If nothing else, think about observing a battle between two different factions both fielding the same ship: the play styles might be slightly different, but once those ships are in the thick of it you've got two sides which suddenly look very much alike.
You've actually quoted my objections to making the Nebulon an Imperial ship, so I will literally copy and paste from your post:
"I personally think that it would homogenise the two factions too much, and detract from the themes of the game itself, and is largely an unnecessary change."
Ultimately, if FFG choose to make the Nebulon an Imperial ship, I'm not going to be too upset. Christ, I might even use a couple myself, who knows? But I do feel compelled to object to the argument that it's necessary because it will A) Make the game more realistic, or B) Because that's how it was in the Expanded Universe. Neither of those things should in any way be significant parts of the design process, as the game has not been designed to be realistic, or an accurate representation of the EU, and indeed most of the appeal of the game is disconnected from those concerns.
Edited by jhoxOr what about the Rebels can keep the Neb, and FFG can give the Empire the B2. Something like the one from Mel's, and give it stats like the cards from DA's.
The only reason I haven't done this yet is because, a) I don't have time to paint the model, and b) well, we all know why.
I want to preface this with the disclaimer that nothing I say, or have said, has even been heated. If anything has ever come across as snide or belittling, I honestly apologize. Everyone has their opinion and reasons why they have it, and I respect that, even if I don't always agree.
That said...
"I think that some (!) shared ships would make Armada better, because it would help shape the feeling of a civil war and not the war of two independ space factions. And as I said, its just silly to limit Star Wars to: The Empire has Design A and the Rebels/Republic has design B. The Emprie has no strange fetish for wedges, its just that the wedge battlecarriers developed out of the histroy of the Republic and the cooperations that supplied first the Republic and then the Empire.
And Armada could also benefit because it would make each faction stand out even more: A Nebulon-B with Imperial Officers and Titles and TIE support could be be played total different than a Rebel with their upgrades and fighters." ~~ DScipio
Okay, second point first. I'm at a loss as to how you can you make the statement that by making both factions use the same models, it will make each faction stand out even more? As it is, with each faction themed, you can glance at a match on the table and instantly see who is where, and how the match is progressing.
Now imagine a table with 4 Nebs, 8 CR-90's 6 Assault Frigates, and 2 Home Ones, all mixed up in a furball.
Who's who?
Now an anecdotal point. The wedge shape is debatable as to if it was ever Republic influenced. The Sith Empire used the wedge, not the Old Republic. And the Prequel Republic didn't use any wedges until Palpatine (a Sith) was calling the shots. In truth, from what I've seen, the wedge has always been the signature look of the bad guys in Star Wars (minus a few captured ships or a couple of EU designs after the stories started getting weird).
To your first point, it wasn't a civil war, it was a Rebellion. Prequel Trilogy Factions: The Republic and the Separatists. This was a civil war. The Separatists had their own systems (not worlds, systems), their own shipyards, their own resources, their own currency (heck unless memory fails me, the Banking Clans, Trade Federation, and Techno-Union were all among the Separatists!). This was one "nation" splitting into independent factions of self-rule.
The Original Trilogy Factions: The Empire and the Rebels. This was a Rebellion. The Rebels did not have entire planets openly defying the Empire (at first). They did not have their own massive shipyards producing ships of the line. They didn't have their own currency. They didn't even have a unified military for quite a while. They operated in cells, independent of each other. And their goal was not freedom and self governance, it was to overthrow and supplant the current government in the name of everyone, whether they wanted it or not.
I hate to be a nitpick about it, but terms matter. If the basis of a position is that one side should or shouldn't have something based on "reasons" than those reasons must be correct. The stand that the Empires war against the Rebellion was a "civil war" is simply not correct. 
Myself, I am shelving this issue alongside "Star Wars vs Star Trek, who would win?" Both sides are passionate about how they feel because "reasons!", and relative sources be damned (not pointing a finger at either side there, if the Neb B is suddenly Imperial, there will be those who are annoyed and siting "canon" why this is bs).
One a different note, I got to thinking yesterday while out and about the town; there are a lot of good designs in the old Imp sourcebook (and elsewhere) that I really would love to see in the game, but don't fit the theme of the factions. And you know what? I don't care. I'd love to see the Carrack, the System Patrol Craft, and Lancer on the table, even if it was in the Rebel Fleet. In fact, honestly? I think they'd look more at home in the Rebel fleet than the Imperial. Let FFG pull new ship designs out of the air for the Imps that fit with a well established wedge shape theme.
I can't and won't speak for everyone, but for myself, I'll be happy to see the designs I love on the table, regardless who fields them. 
And there's absolutely nothing wrong with Wanting, with being happy to see, or being accepting...
(And this is aimed in general, of course - not to any person in particular)
There is only something wrong with stating that your opinion is correct, when really - its Disney's Opinion, in conjunction with the Lucasfilm Story Group, which, truly, is the only source of "truth" now...
They legally own it. They legally control it.
If they put out tomorrow that Jar Jar was actually a Sith Lord, then that would be the truth too, wether the greater community liked it or not.
In short, I can understand the frustration that someone passionate can feel... But all these threads serve is to argue. They focus on a force of negativity - "Something isn't being done right." - "They have everything wrong." etc.
And its for no purpose other than taking a fight that exists in other formats and locations (Wikipedia and Wookiepedia edit wars) to here...
Fantasy Flight Games state on their contact page that they do not accept Unsolicited Game Design advice.
Let's just wait and see what comes up.
Being patient is a choice - and a commendable, polite, considerate one.
Nothing stopping anyone fielding Nebulon B Frigates (or CR-90's, for that matter) on either side in casual games.
As a player who's been a Star Wars fan for over 25 years (and who has seen the above ships used by both factions for a similar amount of time), I'd love to see the smaller capital ships available for both factions. But then, I'm nothing if not a traditionalist.
Dras, spitting the truth as always.
No. The Neb is an iconic Rebel ship. The Imp Neb lies started as a result of lazy game designers waaay back in the Xwing/TIE Fighter era.
I agree that the Neb-Bs is an iconic Reb ship but the idea that Neb-Bs were Imperial ships also widely used by the Rebels came out long before the X-Wing games. It was in the early WEG D6 RPG Material. X-Wing was just the first time we saw an Imperial Neb-B in a PC game or other visual format.
And while currently no canon Imperial frigate has been confirmed as a Neb-B there are some Imperial frigates that don't have their classes identified and one of the canon short stories shows the First Order using Neb-Ks son can Imperial Neb-Bs at some point would not surprise me.