I know this has been brought up a number of times but it's actually starting to annoy me now. It's always sort of rubbed me up the wrong way because like everyone else, I know the Neb B is actually an Imperial ship, (hell the only one we see in the film was supposed to be stolen from the Imperials)

What has occured to me more recently as an Imperial player is that I don't have as many toys in the toolbox as the rebel players, and the more lists I write and the more games I play the more I feel like VSDs are just cheaper but less powerful ISDs and offensively speaking the raider is a cheaper but less powerful GSD (I acknowledge it's not really meant to be used liek a GSD but you get my point). It would be so easily solved by a pack which gave you Imperial versions of the Neb B cards, cardboard base pieces and a few juicy upgrades for us to drool over.

Come on FFG, don't make me go unofficial! There's plenty of us down here on the ground who have been collectively biting our tongues and plenty who have not) so it's got to be worth looking at! Hell even a whole new blister with Neb B's painted grey so they stand out against rebel ones better would be fine.

What do people think?

Sorry, us Rebels keep stealing your NebB's, everytime FFG finally gets one ready to sell.

No. The Neb is an iconic Rebel ship. The Imp Neb lies started as a result of lazy game designers waaay back in the Xwing/TIE Fighter era.

I know this has been brought up a number of times but it's actually starting to annoy me now. It's always sort of rubbed me up the wrong way because like everyone else, I know the Neb B is actually an Imperial ship, (hell the only one we see in the film was supposed to be stolen from the Imperials)

What has occured to me more recently as an Imperial player is that I don't have as many toys in the toolbox as the rebel players, and the more lists I write and the more games I play the more I feel like VSDs are just cheaper but less powerful ISDs and offensively speaking the raider is a cheaper but less powerful GSD (I acknowledge it's not really meant to be used liek a GSD but you get my point). It would be so easily solved by a pack which gave you Imperial versions of the Neb B cards, cardboard base pieces and a few juicy upgrades for us to drool over.

Come on FFG, don't make me go unofficial! There's plenty of us down here on the ground who have been collectively biting our tongues and plenty who have not) so it's got to be worth looking at! Hell even a whole new blister with Neb B's painted grey so they stand out against rebel ones better would be fine.

What do people think?

Why dont you just use the Neb-B and CR 90s for the Imperium? Are your Rebell scu.... opponents against it?

If I were to make a list of all the things that tick me off about the Neb B:

1) The huge, 1 shield side arc on a redirectless ship

2) Oh actually, I'm done.

"Like most people"

No, I'm sorry but most people's notion of Star Wars comes from the movies.

The Imp Neb lies started as a result of lazy game designers waaay back in the Xwing/TIE Fighter era.

Not hardly. The West End Games RPG mentioned the Nebulon B as being Imperial at least as far back as the publication of the Sourcebook (1987).

I know the Neb B is actually an Imperial ship, (hell the only one we see in the film was supposed to be stolen from the Imperials)

That's from the "Expanded Universe" - i.e., now no longer canon. And, as far as this Star Wars elitist is concerned, should never have been canon. 'Cause it sucks. All of it. Except for the 'Ewoks' cartoon. I really like 'Ewoks'. It's like 'Twilight' but furrier.

Point being, on-screen, it's a Rebel ship. That's all it's ever been. It even looks like a Rebel ship - it has much more in common, design-wise, with Blockade Runners and Medium Transports (engine blocks and stowed cargo containers) than it does with any other Imperial ship design - even in the rest of the Expanded Universe.

Now, my hope is for FFG to repeat their earlier success with the Raider. I'm actually completely fine with them making up a new class of Imperial vessel that sticks to the aesthetic and design principles of those big, nasty wedges of destruction. They did so with the Gladiator, which to the best of my knowledge only appeared as a low-detailed depiction in the 'Droids' cartoon prior to its inclusion in 'Armada'. And yet - the Gladiator looks pretty iconic as an Imperial ship, and for my money, so does the Raider.

"Like most people"

No, I'm sorry but most people's notion of Star Wars comes from the movies.

I agree that mot people's notions come from the movies, and that the EU has been de-canonized. What does that matter? Are you arguing against stuff that FFG did bring in from the EU? Do you only play with ISDs when playing Empire?

I'm actually completely fine with them making up a new class of Imperial vessel that sticks to the aesthetic and design principles of those big, nasty wedges of destruction. They did so with the Gladiator, which to the best of my knowledge only appeared as a low-detailed depiction in the 'Droids' cartoon prior to its inclusion in 'Armada'.

It was also in The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide with a fairly detailed drawing. These things are easy to look up in Wookieepedia.

Personally, I'd be fine with the Neb-B as an Imperial ship. The galactic civil war is supposed to be just that - a civil war, in which the insurgent force has to do what they can to get their hands on military hardware and stealing it from the military is a matter of course.

That said, I understand where the nay-sayers are coming from in terms of the iconography.

In term of the discussion about the EU and canon - That's a discussion that can easily lead people to eat their own hats, as what is canon is a moving target as more and more old things get re-canonized.

It was also in The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide with a fairly detailed drawing. These things are easy to look up in Wookieepedia.

But if I checked it myself, I'd deny you the chance to act all superior and condescending, and I don't want to take that away from you.

It was also in The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide with a fairly detailed drawing. These things are easy to look up in Wookieepedia.

But if I checked it myself, I'd deny you the chance to act all superior and condescending, and I don't want to take that away from you.

I appreciate your generosity in this respect.

I'd also like to add that 'The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide' would hardly have been a strong source for canonical information even before the Disney-approved extermination of all things EU.

Jhox, ****.. I would very much like to agree with you on the Neb-thing but your love for ewoks just overrides everything. They sucked, this whole nature tribe bs overcoming a military force with bows and some traps a three year old would come up with ruined ep 6 as much as Mr. Binks ruined ep 1-3. I know, let the hate flow through you..

Okay, will agree with you on the Neb anyway. I very much like the coherent look of imperials and the mixed appearance of rebel fleets. That does not mean that everything imperial has to be wedge-shaped, but as a standing navy force they should follow a common design approach. In custom games I would however agree to have imperials use a Neb or even corvette, either without titles or with DAs custom cards.. The ship is widespread, and it is easy to argue that some underfunded or desperate admiral might requisition anything to bolster his fleet.

I'd also like to add that 'The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide' would hardly have been a strong source for canonical information even before the Disney-approved extermination of all things EU.

So? It's still where we get the more detailed version of the Gladiator from. FFG did not redesign its look. It took it from that hardly-strong source. Also, the Victory-class, which was re-canonized in name in Tarkin.

So? It's still where we get the more detailed version of the Gladiator from. FFG did not redesign its look. It took it from that hardly-strong source. Also, the Victory-class, which was re-canonized in name in Tarkin.

So, to clarify, because I presumably have given the wrong impression here: I'm fine with FFG lifting stuff from the EU. Completely fine with it. Taking the Victory or the Gladiator from whatever source is great - they're good-looking ships that fit with the theme of the Imperial fleet.

What I'm less keen on is the "But in <pick your Expanded Universe publication> Wedge Antilles totally started out as a TIE Fighter pilot, so we should get him as the leader of a TIE squadron!" point-of-view; namely, that because it happened in the EU, it should therefore be represented in 'Armada' (or any other FFG game). Which is essentially the argument that the original poster is making. In the EU, the Nebulon B is an Imperial ship, therefore it should be in this game, too.

Where people genuinely want an Imperial Nebulon B because they think it would be cool, or would actually contribute to making the game more fun to play, or whatever, that's fine - but the justification that "Well it was like this in the EU" is just a bit frustrating. Especially since that then opens the door onto loads of other EU crap which really ought to be left out of 'Armada', in my bitter opinion.

And that's why what is canon and what isn't canon comes into play a little. It's not the case that because something wasn't in the movies, it should therefore never appear in any of FFG's games. However, having Imperial Nebulons does in fact run contrary to what we do see in the movies - namely, the Nebulon as an iconic Rebel ship. It's really not that far off making the Millennium Falcon an Imperial squadron, because at some point in an old book or game, Imperial agents captured it so they could infiltrate the Rebel fleet. Sure, a random author might have written that in, but that doesn't mean it fits with the themes of 'Armada' or 'X-Wing'.

As has been stated elsewhere, if you want to run Nebulons in an Imperial fleet, there's really nothing stopping you from doing so in friendly games - in fact, I'd encourage it. But I would certainly be against FFG making it an official part of the game.

"Like most people"

No, I'm sorry but most people's notion of Star Wars comes from the movies.

I agree that mot people's notions come from the movies, and that the EU has been de-canonized. What does that matter? Are you arguing against stuff that FFG did bring in from the EU? Do you only play with ISDs when playing Empire?

Simply that what is true for Nagababoon isnt true for everyone. In his immediate surrounding I'm sure most people are well-versed with the EU, but that is hardly true for most people outside that small group. I completely understand FFG making the Neb a rebel only ship.

In addition to the background arguments that Nebulon-B's don't feel or look imperial which I agree with, the thing with cross faction (and custom) ships is that FFG has balanced the game faction vs faction instead of ship vs ship. So giving the Imperials the Nebulon-B will warp the intended balance between the factions, which is why we shall probably never see any of the currently existing ships become cross faction. It is possible when they design a ship from the start as a dual faction ship, but I doubt they will.

Lets's face it. We're like kids hinting what we want for Christmas and leaving catalogs open to our choices laying around. I haven't followed these forums a long time, but I haven't heard of Fantasy Flight caving to popular pressure yet either. I also haven't seen them may many mistakes.

To me, this "we want Imp Nebs" is just different words for saying "I want wave 3." I'm willing to bet this would be pretty much forgotten I details for wave 3 were to hit tomorrow.

Be patient. When we Imperial players get the Nebulon-B2, those Rebels will wish they waited a while before they stared stealing frigates from the yards. Seriously, if the Empire is ever going to see their own frigate, I think the B2 is it.

Be patient. When we Imperial players get the Nebulon-B2, those Rebels will wish they waited a while before they stared stealing frigates from the yards. Seriously, if the Empire is ever going to see their own frigate, I think the B2 is it.

Gah, the B2 - much like the TIE Punisher, in the regard that it's a perfectly fine design of vessel in its own right. But when you are aware of it's design process, namely "Take this bit and add more of them onto it," it just looks stupid.

One of the XWvTF designs that I really liked was the CR92A, because it looked like an advanced version of the CR90 - like they had taken the design that worked and modernised it, made it sleeker, built it with better materials and new techniques.

Rather than the B2. Where they just shouted "put a donk on it!" and called it a day. Again, if I'd seen the B2 before seeing the B, I'd think it looked great. Sadly, though, that wasn't the case.

Now, my hope is for FFG to repeat their earlier success with the Raider. I'm actually completely fine with them making up a new class of Imperial vessel that sticks to the aesthetic and design principles of those big, nasty wedges of destruction. They did so with the Gladiator, which to the best of my knowledge only appeared as a low-detailed depiction in the 'Droids' cartoon prior to its inclusion in 'Armada'. And yet - the Gladiator looks pretty iconic as an Imperial ship, and for my money, so does the Raider.

You mean the uninspired and lazy copy of a wedge ship on witch they even put TIE-Wings on.

And you said it very fine yourself:

Gah, the Raider - much like the TIE Punisher. when you are aware of it's design process, namely "Take this bit and add more of them onto it," it just looks stupid.

Rather than the Raider. Where they just shouted "put a donk on it!

You are missing the whole point of Star Wars: There is no unique Rebel or Imperial design. The wedge type Battlecruisers and battlecarriers is not an Imperial thing... you might have noticed that while watching the movies. Its a huge galaxy with many companies in competion with different designs. The Republic (old and new) and the Emprie buy here and there, they buy the ships that seem good or were bribed into the buy list. The Rebels are even more diverse: They take what they get.

And further: Where did the Rebels get the Neb-B? When they encounter it the Empire even had doubt the Rebels could build X-Wings! The Assualt-II is the first try of the Rebels to BUILD their warships en masse.

You could take this deal.

But it's a trap.

Sold!

You could take this deal.

But it's a trap.

Smells fishy to me..

You mean the uninspired and lazy copy of a wedge ship on witch they even put TIE-Wings on.

From a design perspective, the Raider's actually got a lot of clever elements, including the TIE-wings.

By taking a familiar element, like the radiator panels, and applying them to a new design of vessel, you tie that new design to the ships with which we're already familiar. You give them a shared heritage, the idea that they came from the same manufacturer, perhaps, or the same designer. It means the Raider bridges the gap between small superiority fighter and grand, powerful battleship - it itself acts as an AA platform, so the panels really work in that regard.

The wedge ship is key to designing an "Imperial" ship - Imperial vessels in 'Armada' have a common theme of looking aggressive, dangerous, and elegantly simple. The wedge shape is a key part of that - the Raider looks like a stiletto, a dangerous little weapon, where the Gladiator looks like a maul, something which which you'd rip someone's face off.

A small detail, like the bridge on the Raider, demonstrates this perfectly. It still has the elevated, central command section like the conn. towers on bigger Star Destroyers, but it's squat, much more part of the hull, and with visible viewports - it again ties the Raider into the Imperial ship heritage, but also indicates its size very effectively.

The final awesome part of the Raider is the engine. Where the bigger ships have their engines "attached" to the rear, the engine of the Raider is practically the entire rear half of the ship. This keeps it looking fast, overpowered - turbocharged, even. It's not far off the equivalent of an over-sized exhaust on a hatchback, but that's what it's meant to be.

You call the design of the Raider lazy, but I personally think it's pretty inspired. I'd recommend taking a good look at it - especially the 'X-Wing' version, which shows off the details more effectively.

You are missing the whole point of Star Wars: There is no unique Rebel or Imperial design. The wedge type Battlecruisers and battlecarriers is not an Imperial thing... you might have noticed that while watching the movies. Its a huge galaxy with many companies in competion with different designs. The Republic (old and new) and the Emprie buy here and there, they buy the ships that seem good or were bribed into the buy list. The Rebels are even more diverse: They take what they get.

I love how you tell me that I'm missing the whole point of Star Wars, and then go on to talk about companies and marketplace competition, as though those things are the point of Star Wars. Star Wars is about theme and character. The struggle of the Rebels against the dominance of the Empire. The ship design is key to achieving this theme effectively - the Imperials NEED to have big, aggressive, terrifying vessels, whilst the Rebels NEED to have smaller, rougher ships of mixed origins.

Sure, the Prequels introduced wedge-shaped ships to the Republic, but those ships were clearly an attempt by the film makers to give the fans stuff they'd recognise - the exact same reason they introduced "Jango Fett" and Clones in Storm Trooper armour. In the Original Trilogy, the look and feel of the ships and equipment and settings and costumes and props all fed into the central themes. The Prequels just gave us stuff we were familiar with so we could dribble with excitement into our popcorn. I'm not saying the designs weren't nice - I love some of the Prequel ships - but their design origins are just as lazy and trite as you claim the Raider to be.

And further: Where did the Rebels get the Neb-B? When they encounter it the Empire even had doubt the Rebels could build X-Wings! The Assualt-II is the first try of the Rebels to BUILD their warships en masse.

So, the origins of the Nebulon B are a bit like the origins of Boba Fett - irrelevant. It's on screen for a few seconds in total across two feature-length films. It's a great design of ship, but where it came from has no bearing on the story or the themes involved.

As to its inclusion in 'Armada', are you honestly suggesting that FFG should make the Nebulon available to Imperials, solely to justify the Rebels having one? Christ, forget the EU for a second - the Nebulon could just as easily have been donated to the cause by a pirate cartel, or it could be a stolen freighter. Bear in mind that it has no visible weapons - indeed, it's front "keel" is packed with what look like cargo holds. It could've come from anywhere. Either way, it doesn't matter.

Then there's the fact that it's a god-**** medical frigate in the movies. They even call it that at Endor. It's a hospital ship. The only reason it turns up to Endor is because the entire Rebel fleet was committed to the fight - even the transports from Hoth. This was their valiant, last-ditch attempt to bring down the Empire. If the one Nebulon B we see in the movies was actually a hospital ship, then I am very, very curious as to why everyone so desperately wants it to be some badass Imperial frigate.

Finally, 'Armada' is a bloody miniatures war game which has been very carefully designed to evoke the feel of the epic battles from the Original Trilogy - and to some extent, the Prequels. It is not some simulation of a galaxy-spanning war operation where every single little thing must be modelled in. So what if the Nebulon was actually an Imperial ship at some point in the Expanded Universe? 'Armada' isn't an academic recreation of every possible fight that might possibly occur in the Star Wars universe - it's an abstracted, enjoyable war game about ragtag Rebel warbands taking on brutal Imperial armadas.

If FFG decide to release the Nebulon as an Imperial vessel, then that's great! Hopefully, they'll get a new miniature to represent it, maybe one with more armour and fewer exposed internals. But I really doubt it will make the game somehow much better, or more "realistic" - if that's what you want, then you've arguably picked the wrong franchise.