There is literally no point value where I would want them in any list as they are currently presented.

You sure? Not even at 13 points?

They're both strictly better than the Obsidian Squadron Pilot. +2 PS, a pilot ability, an extra attack die and turning several maneuvers green is the only difference.

If you were offered a choice between a free Fel's Wrath added to your squad or a Black Squadron Pilot with Adaptability added to your squad at no cost I'm honestly not sure who'd go with the BSP unless they had Youngster or something.

Well maybe not LITERALLY

*No one wants to hear the corner case where they are cool when the overwhelming evidence as well as the sniff test point clearly to the opposite

does a sniff test work on plastic?

The poster who declared them basically a victim of game mechanics is right in my opinion.

I basically agree; in a theoretical X-Wing 2.0 system, I would want a lot of the fundamental mechanics to be re-worked in such a way that ships like A-Wings and TIE Interceptors have a more distinct play style beyond just dice efficiency. From a thematic point of view, these high-performance ships should be able to overcome their relatively weak shields and firepower to take down slow, ponderous opponents. In practice, they just get whacked by fat turret ships. Autothrusters just confirms that - it significantly alters the rules that govern engagements against fat turret ships, giving the Interceptors the tools they need to actually take them down using their maneuverability. Mechanics like that should be baked into the base game, instead of added as a kludge later.

I've been approaching these threads strictly from an X-Wing 1.0 point of view. Right now, we basically only play with 20% of the cards in the game, which is an unfortunate limit on diversity. Without changing any core game concepts, or significantly altering the text on cards, what's the minimal possible changes that we can make that would re-introduce the many diverse pilots and upgrades that already exist? Altering costs is the most straight-forward way to do that.

What I'd try is multiple types of each die a ala Imperial Assault, which would give you a huge advantage in representing accuracy and fix some intuitive problems. For example, ever noticed how single large attacks are much better at hitting high agility than several weaker shots? Similarly, it's the thousand cuts of the TIE swarm hard targets like the Decimator fear far more than Heavy Laser Cannons.

Attack dice I'd split into three types.

Red dice have more blanks but also have double hits on some faces. They're more damaging but more easily avoided.

Say blank, blank, blank, blank, focus, hit+focus, hit+hit, hit+crit.

Blue dice have fewer blanks (or no blanks with focus being their blanks) but have no double hits. They're harder to avoid but less damaging.

blank, focus, focus, hit, hit, hit, hit, crit.

Green dice have Effect symbols on them in addition to a few hit symbols, the effects of which are determined by the card using them (for example, an ion weapon assigns one Ion token for each Effect roled, a Flechette would assign stress, an Autoblaster would treat effects as unavoidable hits). Effect dice have a few hit results on them (although less than red and blue) and have one double effect result.

Defence dice I'd split into durability and agility dice. Durability dice have a lot of Armor results (they replace evades and cancel entire attack dice). Agility dice have fewer armour results but have two total dodges which cancels the entire attack.

I would still support a 2.0 version if Fantasy Flight was willing to sell be a pack of pilot cards and upgrades to make up you their lack of vision, let me clear my throat.....lack of playtestimg and asking the pros who play at the highest level. Paying for 100% of the cards and playing with 20% might not be such a screw you concept if it was just the upgrade cards, but when all those pilots just sit their in your binder looking at you like,"of course your not going to play me since their are 8/10 pilots who are better priced and don't suck. That is the part that gets me. When Force Awakens came out they should have just admitted failure and made up for it. But they are too proud and more importantly greedy for that. I would have just been happy to get the pilots tight and forgo and upgrade card changes. That was the best time to fix the game and the blew it. Greedy.....

Soontir Fel 27

Soontir Fel is a 32 point pilot before the optional upgrade card, Stealth Device, is added.

If you are playing smart and put an extra stress token on him he's only a 24 point pilot.

I believe that lower PS pilots are a bit overpriced or at least could get some sort of help in form of a title card.

I've designed this so that high PS/PTL users do not gain too much and there is the question of a choice between Imperial Guard (2 mods, so great for aces) and something else (which helps to survive) - in a way similar to TIE/x7 vs TIE/D titles from Imperial Veterans.

The price deduction is something I am not certain about, but seems balanced because it doesn't help named aces. I have to admit that Lorrir doesn't gain much from this card, but the wording could be changed to help this particular pilot.

I don't actually believe the stress is necessary: no need to shut down the dial.

Just simplify it to:

At the beginning of the combat phase, if you are not stressed you may add an evade token to this ship. Leave it as a 0 point title. Aces run the royal title already, and this really doesn't help the standard Soontir builds.

I believe that lower PS pilots are a bit overpriced or at least could get some sort of help in form of a title card.

I've designed this so that high PS/PTL users do not gain too much and there is the question of a choice between Imperial Guard (2 mods, so great for aces) and something else (which helps to survive) - in a way similar to TIE/x7 vs TIE/D titles from Imperial Veterans.

The price deduction is something I am not certain about, but seems balanced because it doesn't help named aces. I have to admit that Lorrir doesn't gain much from this card, but the wording could be changed to help this particular pilot.

Why wouldn't you use the term "free evade action"? That way there is absolutely no capacity to PTL for a second evade.

I believe that lower PS pilots are a bit overpriced or at least could get some sort of help in form of a title card.

I've designed this so that high PS/PTL users do not gain too much and there is the question of a choice between Imperial Guard (2 mods, so great for aces) and something else (which helps to survive) - in a way similar to TIE/x7 vs TIE/D titles from Imperial Veterans.

The price deduction is something I am not certain about, but seems balanced because it doesn't help named aces. I have to admit that Lorrir doesn't gain much from this card, but the wording could be changed to help this particular pilot.

Why wouldn't you use the term "free evade action"? That way there is absolutely no capacity to PTL for a second evade.

I wanted to have this evade assigned without an action and so that Turr Phennir doesn't get another evade for his barrel roll/boost action after firing.

It has been discussed that the base cost for Tie Interceptors is about 1 point too high.

Maybe the reason was that 5 x Alpha + Stealth was considered as overpowered.

Reasonable back then when the Interceptor was designed?

So my throw is quite in line with the most suggestions in this thread

TIE INTERCEPTOR PILOTS

Alpha Squadron Pilot 17

Avenger Squadron Pilot 18 (+ 2 PS at + 1 point cost in this case. I think 5 x Avenger + AT could be interresting)

Saber Squadron Pilot 20

Royal Guard Pilot 21

Fel's Wrath 23 (The stupitidy of Fel's Wrath ability can't be compensated with any point costs. If he would be more reasonable 20 points, I would rather take a Saber or an Avenger + AT instead)

Lieutenant Lorrir 21 (Maybe he would find some usage for only 21 points - even without EPT)

Kir Kanos 22 (Maybe he would find some usage for only 22 points - even without EPT)

Tetran Cowall 22

Turr Phennir 24

Carnor Jax 25

Soontir Fel 27 (Soontir is the only pilot that is worth his points costs; basically he can be seen as a 30 points pilot, because no PTL is a no no for him.)

Edit:

Is the gap between the Avanger and the Saber reasonable?

Interceptors aren't very interceptor-y...either are awings or scyks. Their job is to lock onto (which they can do relatively well) an enemy and go dog fight it out to keep that enemy from harassing other ships. They don't force an enemy to remain engaged. I'd love to see them get more tools for this side of their role:

Awing Interceptor (Awing or Syck): When an enemy ship template overlaps your base, and after they complete their maneuver, you may perform a free boost or BR action.

True Interceptor (tie interceptor): When you reveal a kturn manuever you may change it to a sloop or TRoll of the same speed.

Scum Interceptor (scyk): When an enemy ship template overlaps your base you may immediately roll a primary weapon attack. You gain a weapons disabled token.

---------------------------------

Each would really help the interceptors feel like interceptors- hunters that lock on and lock down single ships. Not sure what to give them to help vs. Large based ships but thems the breaks.

Just simplify it to:

At the beginning of the combat phase, if you are not stressed you may add an evade token to this ship. Leave it as a 0 point title. Aces run the royal title already, and this really doesn't help the standard Soontir builds.

I thought about it as a reward for making a particular action - boost/barrel roll seems very TIE Interceptorish to me. Playing TIE Fighter on PC for years gives you this sort of impression, I guess.

Besides a boost/barrel roll is sometimes impossible and requires skill and you still have to choose - either focus or do it and gain the token. I wanted to help piloting the fighter, but at a price of making its attack less accurate.

Cost deduction seemed like a nice way to repay it, plus with Advanced Prototype PS1 Interceptor seems a little overpriced, similar with PS3 - both without any access to elite skills which can help a lot so both a little overpriced.

I don't actually believe the stress is necessary: no need to shut down the dial.

PLT, Turr Phennir's etc. TIE Interceptor has plenty of greens so I thought the cost is worth it, plus it gives a nice image of an Interceptor dodging/piloting like crazy, recover from a temporary stress caused by G-force and doing it again if it chooses.

Fel's Wrath 23 (The stupitidy of Fel's Wrath ability can't be compensated with any point costs. If he would be more reasonable 20 points, I would rather take a Saber or an Avenger + AT instead)

Again, cut him to 14 and he's strictly better than a 14pt BSP. Any point cost is simply false.

Put him at 20 and he's strictly better than the Avenger.

Fel's Wrath 23 (The stupitidy of Fel's Wrath ability can't be compensated with any point costs. If he would be more reasonable 20 points, I would rather take a Saber or an Avenger + AT instead)

Again, cut him to 14 and he's strictly better than a 14pt BSP. Any point cost is simply false.

Put him at 20 and he's strictly better than the Avenger.

Only if you let the Avenger untouched.

But is anyone ever using an Avenger anyways?

Just simplify it to:

At the beginning of the combat phase, if you are not stressed you may add an evade token to this ship. Leave it as a 0 point title. Aces run the royal title already, and this really doesn't help the standard Soontir builds.

...and that title had better come in an expansion that delivers another copy of 'Juke'...

Right now, we basically only play with 20% of the cards in the game, which is an unfortunate limit on diversity. Without changing any core game concepts, or significantly altering the text on cards, what's the minimal possible changes that we can make that would re-introduce the many diverse pilots and upgrades that already exist? Altering costs is the most straight-forward way to do that.

This will preface all Price Check threads from now on.

Price changes won't be enough to improve every problem card, but I believe it will be enough for many. And it would be relatively easy for FFG to overrule the printed card costs and present new ones for tournament play. I'm getting skewered on reddit for that idea, but FFG did something similar with Netrunner so hold onto your hats.

I've wanted to use an avenger. But just can't justify it.

I've wanted to use an avenger. But just can't justify it.

TIE Avenger? ;P

Seriously - I picked up 5 Tie Interceptor expansions back then because I thought 5 Avenger pilots would be a thing. And you can win with them - if the dice gods let you win.

The funny thing about Interceptors in general is that there's no reason for low PS pilots to exist really. Put a PS 1 rookie in one of those things and they're just going to get slaughtered. Unfortunately, you still paid for all the elite features of the base ship. :'(

Price changes won't be enough to improve every problem card, but I believe it will be enough for many. And it would be relatively easy for FFG to overrule the printed card costs and present new ones for tournament play. I'm getting skewered on reddit for that idea, but FFG did something similar with Netrunner so hold onto your hats.

If FFG created their own squad building software (or endorsed some of the various major squad builders as "officially sanctioned"), then they would have an avenue for easily implementing these kinds of point adjustments. Add a pull-down menu with an option to have "Spring 2016 Tournament Point Values", and then tweak them the next quarter if one particular ship or upgrade card was egregiously over or under-represented during that tournament season. The printed point values on the cards would remain as the "Regular Play" costs.

FFG has been pretty conservative when applying these kinds of tweaks to X-Wing, because it's basically well-balanced as it is. We talk about a ship that's 1 point overpriced like they're unusable garbage, when really they're just somewhat less effective than other ships. Those small differences in effectiveness matter in tournament play. In casual play... getting it in the right ballpark is about as well as you can do. The inconsistent play style of noobs is difficult to precisely balance a game around.

If I were in FFG's shoes... I might just ignore imbalance issues in the game and keep on trucking. Don't kill the golden goose. I certainly would not release an X-Wing 2.0 and screw over the loyal customers who bought into the game up to this point. Even a card upgrade pack would leave a sour taste.

As an active tournament player, I want an official Tournament Price Adjustments PDF. It would be a tremendous boon for the competitive scene.

Right now, we basically only play with 20% of the cards in the game, which is an unfortunate limit on diversity. Without changing any core game concepts, or significantly altering the text on cards, what's the minimal possible changes that we can make that would re-introduce the many diverse pilots and upgrades that already exist? Altering costs is the most straight-forward way to do that.

This will preface all Price Check threads from now on.

Price changes won't be enough to improve every problem card, but I believe it will be enough for many. And it would be relatively easy for FFG to overrule the printed card costs and present new ones for tournament play. I'm getting skewered on reddit for that idea, but FFG did something similar with Netrunner so hold onto your hats.

And while most like what the Most Wanted List does, most agree that it wasn't exactly the simplest solution. Also, you can't ignore why it was implemented by the designer (and most notably after one of the original designers left), which was that there were issues designing around those cards.

Which, I suspect, isn't why most people want things to be recosted.

Honestly? Cards are cards. If they're bad; its not the end of the world. Its a loss of potential diversity, but if it was removed from the game entirely, what's the difference. Ships, on the other hand, are models and unique visual elements of the game. To me, the real tragedy is when a ship isn't viable in any form. That's a toy someone can't play with. As long as there's a single viable build for a ship, I'm pretty okay with its place in the game.

If all the ships are playable, I'll take a little more issue with specific pilots, essentially in order of character popularity. For example; I think its more important that Vader be viable than Alozen. Above all else, though; I'm in the business of fixing ships, no matter how much chaff gets tossed in the process.

Right now, we basically only play with 20% of the cards in the game, which is an unfortunate limit on diversity. Without changing any core game concepts, or significantly altering the text on cards, what's the minimal possible changes that we can make that would re-introduce the many diverse pilots and upgrades that already exist? Altering costs is the most straight-forward way to do that.

This will preface all Price Check threads from now on.

Price changes won't be enough to improve every problem card, but I believe it will be enough for many. And it would be relatively easy for FFG to overrule the printed card costs and present new ones for tournament play. I'm getting skewered on reddit for that idea, but FFG did something similar with Netrunner so hold onto your hats.

I did something similar for a different miniatures game a long while back. People are really really sensitive to card costs and yet welcome a 2.0 version of the game instead, usually with way more errata than a single number change and at a great cost to the consumer. For something as fundamentally sound as Xwing 2.0 really doesn't make sense (and while cheap compared to other options, r- buying xwing is something I doubt I'd ever do).

I would much rather see a few points get shaved here and there. Often we would see new combinations and strategies evolve and people get to use more of the stuff that they ALREADY bought. That's the key though, how does FFG make money off of changing costs? They don't. That's primarily why they don't do it. I'm not sure why, they have tons of experience printing, packaging, shipping, distributing CARDS and CARDBOARD for all kinds of games; a 15 card errata "booster" pack for each ship can't be THAT difficult to do, but the margins would be lower than with a mini. I hope they'll change that stance before they go 2.0 route.

I'd love to see more pilots, especially interceptors, in play. Casually and campaign wise they are always popular but not so much in competitive play outside of Soonts.

I believe that lower PS pilots are a bit overpriced or at least could get some sort of help in form of a title card.

I've designed this so that high PS/PTL users do not gain too much and there is the question of a choice between Imperial Guard (2 mods, so great for aces) and something else (which helps to survive) - in a way similar to TIE/x7 vs TIE/D titles from Imperial Veterans.

The price deduction is something I am not certain about, but seems balanced because it doesn't help named aces. I have to admit that Lorrir doesn't gain much from this card, but the wording could be changed to help this particular pilot.

this would still be pretty good on Soontir and he could have VI