BaronIveagh said:

Now calm down there, no need to get all angsty and personal. If it means that much to you, maybe you should go cool down, alright? Just because someone has a different opinion to you doesn't give you the right to make personal attacks. Also, your previous source, BFG: Armada, solely related to Space Marine vessels, which are of a totally different type than normal Imperial vessels, and so are sufficiently different to make their crew numbers per ship invalid as a source for Imperial Navy/Rogue Trader vessels.

Plus, FFG have to put EVERYTHING passed GW before it even sees me and my playtest group, so GW approved the crew figures themselves. So you can argue all you want and it won't change the fact that in the most up-to-date, in depth book on ships in 40k, the figures are at around 26k crewmen for a Sword-class frigate.

Plus, if you actually read into the fluff as it has been since about 2nd edition, you'd know that the Dark Angels, whilst currently being one of the Loyalist legions, during the Horus Heresy had a civil war of their own. The fluff also obfuscates which side was wanting to go and help the Emperor and which side wanted to sit and see who was coming out on top before joining in the war. So FFG don't have to change anything, it's already pretty obvious which side of the DA civil war the current Unforgiven were on. So there is no need to even argue that point.

I would like to remind everyone that ad homenim attacks are not tolerated on this forum. Not that anyone has breached that threshold, but this thread seems to be playing very close to the edge.

It's not our policy to get involved in forum disputes, but I would like to add that it is a fairly large universe.

Yeah...chill out everyone. Besides which the great thing about the Koronus expanse it that you really can play about with the fluff and if it contradicts canon...well you can call it a typical tall tale from the Koronus Expanse...for example:

Footfall…the Esterze’s Groxburger bar…a fashionable and somewhat disreputable haunt for Rogue Traders, where they come to recount their tales of daring and fantastic endevours against the odds. Inside the establishment there hasn’t been a killing in over five hundred years, as even rival Rogue Traders have come to respect the informal truce that pervades the place (Or so they say...) Tonight two of them have come to tell tall tales and improbable exploits. One them a large man dressed in the finery of a privateer, sporting a bristling beard and a rascally scared face topped by a tricorn hat. His jewel encrusted naval issue handcannon casually lying on the food stewn table table. The other, lean and dressed more sombrely, wore a neatly trimmed goatee and crew cut hair. He had the air of a scholar, though a discerning observer would have noticed the worn but functional slim powersword at his waist. Both are warrant holders and both with more than a few exploits to their name. The larger man was now laughing…

“Har har Frezenio you are such a liar! Why even more vox servitor has been know to tell better falsehoods and he has half his cerebrum missing…every one knows that no such planet exist” Jamatar Friel was getting into his stride now, laughing contemptously at his fellow rogue trader across a table strewn with Grox burger wrappings and recaff mugs. “Don’t take me for a void child!”

Frezenio Tenax splayed his fingers helplessly in mirth. He was never good at brassing out an improbable story, so he just smile and slouched further into his chair, taking another sip of his recaff and having to admit defeat. Jamatal could out fib an Eldar when it came to lying or finding the truth.

“Ok …Ok maybe a planet populated entirely by female ogryns doesn't exist… But those systems do…just beyond the Brindley Nebula. No rogue trader has ever bothered to go there; I think they have been accidently overlooked”

“Bah! Those constellations be full of pirates an raiders and I warrant there be anything interesting there… probably why no Trader as ever been round to give it a look” Jamatal took another bite his Grox Burger with gusto. "The ratling Gastromo has excelled himself today..."

“As you wish, but when I take the Goldrake past the windy paths and come back with untold riches…”

“Untold riches!” guffawed Cpatain Jamatar, slapping his thighs, and almost choking on his mouthful of meat he had just eaten.

“I see there’s no being serious with you tonight” said Frezenio making a face of mock hurt and reaching for his brocade coat and pretending to leave, which both he and Jamatal knew he had no intention to.

“No! No please! Stay Lord Tenax” said Jamatar relenting “If there be the same blood running through your veins as that of your Dynasty then I be sure you will find something…even if it be glory or a sudden death. Besides…I saw that your dynasty’s history was recently publish’ed by the dark reign publishing house. Can’t quite believe your ancestors had such a illustrious history”

“Neither can I, I’m still not sure even half of it is true. I was more concerned however by the terrible narrative and the obvious spelling mistakes. I’m going to make sure I have a word with that remembrancer” Frezenio Tenax fingering his power sword. He sat back and sipped from his recaff mug “Anyway it’s your turn now for an improbable exploit from the expanse”

“ Arhhh I have a beastly tale to speak of today. Coming back from me hellish journey from the cursed demesne…”

“You haven’t been further than the cauldron….” interjected Frezenio spitefully

“…..from the cursed demesne” Insisted Jamatal “I rendez-voued for repairs at the trading post Vert-Lunette. When we landed we were not met with the usual ceremonial frippery…which were odd, but we soon found the reasoning. At the dry dock’s there was a great commotion. Now I ‘ave always been one for great commotion as you well know so me and me men we went to ‘ave a look. Apparently a transport ship, an ancient haulier had just pulled into berth, it had about it the heraldry of a rogue trader dynasty…can’t quite remember the name…”

“How convenient” exclaimed Frezenio with a thin smile. But Jamatal waved his incredulity away.

“But anyways there be no signal from the ships crew for over a day. The ship just pulled in silently and just sat there looking ominous. Anyways after half a day the Thin Controller, for such was the harbour master’s name, called for able men to board the ship and see what lay within…for a few extra thrones an’ free maintenance you understand… Well I was short of gelts at the time so I took some of me best armsmen and after about an hour we boarded the ship”

“And?” sat Frezenio intrigued, feeling that for once old Jamatar wasn’t telling lies. This sounded interesting.

“It were the strangest thing we ever saw. No crew. Not one living soul. Just servitors on board. Not even tech priest or cog boy. Fahsands of the droolin’ things just wired into the ship, barely taking any attention of us. Now you know me for bein’ a hard boiled void farer that has seen his best share of things but even this were strange. We made our way to the bridge and met the master of the ship himself”

“The rogue trader?” Frezenio paused and then groaned “Hang on let me guess…”

“Ye guessing right. He were a servitor too, babbling machine speak and wired into the throne and everything, hardly sentient he were. Anyways after a few minutes of looking around, we felt the warp engines revvin’ up, so we scarpered off the ship as there be no profit being trapped on a ship full of mech-corpses. The ship moved off the docks and took to void again. Never to be seen again. Later I asked around the old voiders at Port Wander and apparently there be a story to this ship… the Sapphire Edge it were called. They said something went wrong with an archeotech crew reclamation facility their captain had found on a planet, and how one by one the automated facility changed the crew into mech-corpses until it took even the lord captain himself was wired into the ship. And it wanders around the koronus expanse. They say that those that stay on the ship for too long become servitors too…”

“Emperors testes! And you say I’m a bad liar!” interrupted Frezenio “You have no shame! How many other Traders have you recounted this rubbish to?”

“No it’s true! It’s true!” protested Jamatal wide eyed with emotion “I’ve been on that cursed ship”

Frezenio caught Jamatal eyes for a second, trying to discern if for once this outrageous liar was telling the truth. He then smiled and sank further into his chair and poured himself some more recaff.

“Well whatever it is…. It’s a good story” he said with a wry smile.

BaronIveagh said:

Both and neither.

Differing patterns, marks and models allow for all kinds of variation. Just look at the differences between different marks of Land Raider or Rhino - and those are ancient and sacred STC designs. A Macrocannon's crew requirements will vary from ship to ship due to necessity of repairs and replacements, difficulty of sourcing components, natural variations in local patterns, Mechanicus traditions and doctrinal vagaries unique to a given region, mass and composition of shells, etc, etc.

Umm...

Normally I'd agree with you on that sort of assertion within 40k, however, the problem is that RT is in the past of 40k, when things are supposed to be better, rather then the present of 40k, which is really crap. The Ultramarines have just have defeated Behemoth a few decades before. Much of the technology 'lost' to the Imperium hasn't been 'lost' yet, though much of it seems to be conspicuous in it's absence. Squats, in particular seem missing, since they arn't wiped out until Hive Fleets Leviathan and Kraken show up, if I recall correctly...

In theory, we should even still see imperial jetbikes, since those were avalible for the Second War of Armageddon, which hasn't happened yet.

BaronIveagh said:

You honestly believe that the Imperium lost all of its technology within a period of about a century (as opposed to, say, the ten millennia between the end of the Heresy and 'modern day')? That is, within the lifetimes of most of the contemporary heroes of the 'present day' (999.M41). Are you even going to attempt to rationalise that, or is it just the truth and indisputable, like everything written in the BFG rulebook (which, it should be noted, is technically even further in the past of the 40k universe; it does, afterall, cover the Gothic War first and foremost, which took place half a millennium earlier); certainly, that's the point you seem to have attempted to make in previous discussions.

As for the Squats... are you just taking fan interpretation and spouting it as gospel truth? Because I have never seen anything that actually told of the death of the Squats in any more detail than "they were eaten by Tyranids". Remember, the Calixis Sector and the Koronus Expanse are on the far edge of the Imperium... hardly anywhere close to where the Squat Homeworlds were anyway... their absence isn't necessarily a factor of their extinction (and is, in truth, because actually publishing anything about the Squats would invariably be stopped dead in its tracks by GW's licensing people, no matter what time period it refers to).

You are aware that the background changes, aren't you? That things once deemed valid may no longer be the preferred official interpretation? It is an actual impossibility to take every single scrap of published material (let alone the interpretations of the communities) and have it all be completely true, particularly when dealing with older background (Squats, abundance of Imperial jetbikes, etc)... those who try will only end up frustrating themselves.

Um, first, it's 200 years in the past, not 100. This is 812-815 as I recall. not 899.

As an example of how far technology can change in 200 years: Between 1810 and now we've gone from Flintlocks and canon to the AR-15 and Cruise Missiles. In reverse, within a century of the fall of Rome, much of Europe lost the bulk of five centuries worth of advancement.

For an in universe example: flying cars and jetbies are still common enough to be in civilian use in 933. So they would have to have totally vanished between 933 and 999. (and these are both from books published in the same year (2008), covering the same period, in nearly the same parts of the galaxy, not two different books published twenty years apart)

Further, GW tends to eliminate the Imperium's technology by destroying forgeworlds in this war or that war. However, at some point someone at GW takes it into thier heads to assign dates to these wars. (Example, Zoats are eliminated in the closing years of the 38th millenium)

I admit, the dating of the demise of the Squats was assumed due to GW publishing a map of the locations of the major hive fleets. Since Kraken and leviathan are the ones passing through those areas of space, Behemoth having come from a different direction, logically they would have done the eating. However, now the offical policy is that Squats have never existed, and are slowly being purged from reprinted materials.

The problem is that GW retconns so much that figuring out if any given event is still in is like figuring out DC post Crisis and the way they go about it tends to leave plot holes big enough to drive a Leviathan through. ... and come to think of it, may be where they hide the Leviathan during the odd editions where it 'never existed' only to bring it out again next edition... rather like all those Leman Russ varients that miraculously reappeared in the latest IG codex....

If anyone ever wants to know why you write a setting bible when you design a universe,this is a sterling example thereof.

BaronIveagh said:

It is? The copies of Inquisition War (bought two, one for me and one for a friend) I got a couple of months ago from Black Library still have Squats in it, and still point out that the Tyranid Hive Fleets got them. So they still seem to have existed in at least one novel, and that novel also included the in-setting reason for their later disappearance.

BaronIveagh said:

Depends on when, precisely, you're talking about; afterall, while GW may list a timeline up to 999M41 in the rulebook, novels and other sources cover conflicts and events that happened decades or centuries before (and encourage people to play with the whole timeline, not just some arbitrary 'now') with considerable regularity. 'Present day' is a matter of where you're standing at the time, particularly given how (deliberately) innacurate the Imperial Dating System is (I mean, it has a distinct section designed to denote the relative inaccuracy of a given date).

BaronIveagh said:

It's only a problem if you want there to be an absolute truth. So long as you're not demanding the moon on a stick, it's not an issue.

BaronIveagh said:

Fine. Go back in time and tell that to the guys that created 40k. The setting has expanded and grown successful beyond all imaginings since its creation... a vague 'sandbox' universe (which 40k is at the core of it) is perfect for the wargames it originally supported exclusively, particularly as much of the setting was deliberately intended (at the time) to be an homage to and parody of any and every sci-fi and fantasy trope the authors came across - you don't need absolute facts and figures for something like that, where you're actively encouraging people to make up their own stuff for their own purposes.

It's only relatively recently that the situation has changed to incorporate an abundance of licenced products, and only relatively recently that people have become obsessed by trying to define what is and what isn't "canon", rather than just getting on with picking and choosing what they like and making things up as the situation demands.

Check out the reprint of Deathwing where Grim the Squat became Grill the Tech Priest.

Inquisition War was so rife with things that are no longer canon that they probly just gave up on the idea. There wouldn't have been a lot of novel left.

As far as absolutes go: the problem is that you need at least a few of them. Players need a common frame of reference, and the problem is that GW gave us that to begin with, and has been jerking us around with ever since, for various reasons. FFG could state that Lunars are six times the size of Jupiter and shoot ammo made of Emperor **** and GW would approve it not becasue it has any relivence to existing fluff, but because it doesn't effect their bottom line, and has the added bonus of pissing off the Specialist Games crowd and maybe irritating Andy Chambers since he quit GW and went to work for Blizzard.

Heck, Jervis Johnson is the only person I've ever heard sound pissed off that his company made a decent product that people wanted to buy.

BaronIveagh said:

Except that they didn't, at least in regards to starships, which you seem obsessed with ranting about - no published BFG material actually states the sizes of the vessels (nearest thing was an off-hand remark in White Dwarf the month BFG was released which stated that Fury starfighters were about the size of jumbo jets); it comes from asides from the designers (specifically Andy Chambers) made in their own time and on their own sites that provide any actual values to work from... which, while useful insights, are still only as legitimate as off-hand comments made during a Games Day seminar or a conversation had at a convention when it comes to discussing published material.

As for what GW are likely to approve... trust me, they're a damned sight stricter than you claim. I know this from personal experience, for reasons I'm not yet allowed to go into any detail about.

Do GW make an effort to preserve their settings? Yes - especially now that the settings are licenced out for various purposes. Are they beholden to keep everything exactly the same as it always has been and pander to the interpretations of individual players or community groups? Not by a long shot...

N0-1 I have one statement for you about GW's strictness on what they approve: multi-lazors.

And since for some reason it's not letting me edit the last post:

Further, most of the information isn't from 'off the cuff' statements, but from articals published in Battlefleet Gothic Magazine and White Dwarf.

You know, nothing GW ment to be taken serious, just some stuff from the offical publication of Games Workshop.

BaronIveagh said:

Well, clearly their approval methods are ones subject to change; afterall, CS Goto no longer writes for Black Library, and the approval process that I've personally encountered is fairly stringent.

Whine all you want, but it is the way it is. Whatever your assumptions about the matter, there is an approval process, it does consist of more than "go ahead, bung it in, we don't care", and FFG's writers are subject to it.

...the fact he got in the door in the first place and that the editorial staff appearently never read any of it should say a lot though...

*sigh* So GW's new stance is that there are very, very few people on their planets, but lots and lots in thier space ships. Of which there are now very few of.

I know! The huge planetary populations of the Imperium have been...

A) Nearly drained by the tactics of hte Imperial Guard (reasonable explaination.)

B) Partially devoured by the tyranids before the Inquisition could secretly eliminate them without anyone noticing (explaination that would probably be used)

C) Loaded into the excess starships of the various Segmentums as bait to draw off the slavering hoards of tyranids(I like this one as it explains so much, and would be in tone with the rest of the game. Which is why it will not be used, in favor of explaination B)

Sigh. 40k. The Powergirl of Game Settings. (Rivaled only by Forgotten Realms 4th Edition)

What do you mean not many people on a planet?

25 billion at Scintilla a hive world with 3 hives and a lot of desolate wilderness

5 billion at Iocanthos a place that can be described as a dustball with gangs of warlords.

12 billion Sepheris Secundus

Those figures do not say not many to me.

BaronIveagh said:

See I knew it... Dark Angels are really evil.

FOR RUSS AND THE ALL FATHER!... CLean out THE ROCK!

Ranek7212 said:

Not evil, just not entirely as loyal as they like to think they are. If you've read the fluff since 2nd edition, plus the novels, it's fairly obvious that the Dark Angels might not have been the good guys who wanted to rush to the Emperor's side in the Horus Heresy.

Plus, Baron, stop being childish please. If you aren't going to act like a mature adult, then there is no point in this discussion anymore.

I also agree with everything N0-1-H3R3 said. GW's policies and setting checks on licensees are a lot stricter than you think.

This isn't overly relevant: but after the fall of the Roman Empire, into the "Dark Ages" or Middle Ages and prior to the Reanaisance, there was actually lots of technical advancement and innovation, just the rates of dissemination was radically cutailed.

I know people are way into something else on this topic, but to answer the main question.

After a quick boarding action to best ascertain the fate of the original crew and the 'emptiness' of the ship, I would 'tether' the derelict to my own vessel in order to use my own gellar fields to shield it during the warp jump back to the nearest system with a port capable of refit, and tow it into dry dock.

Once the appropriate payments and niceties are complete with the Port authorities, I would begin the salvage sweeps and catalogue all equipment, munitions, and consumables aboard as well as systems and components of the vessel itself.

Once I have a good bearing on the ships capabilities, I would then need to consult my house and the cost to maintain the new vessel, making enquiries as to potential parties in which to sell it too, all while filing the right paperwork to legitimize my ownership with the local Battlefleet and to keep any pesky 'claimants' from popping up out of nowhere with a scroll signed by a local magistrate.

If I could afford to keep the vessel, I would first begin repairs using the ports own facilities, then send petitions to the various adepts and guilds who would in turn bid for sponsorship, to acquire the essential crew of Tech Priests, Psykers, navigators, Astropaths, and servitors if the contracts I currently have with the factions that man my personal vessel could not extend to additional ships.

Once essential crew is signed for, there would be the mass recruitment of skilled voidsmen at the Port, to at least bring the ship to minimal crew requirements, with the possibility of persuading the crew of local system ships or merchant transports to change colours to the promise of wealth that comes with being a crew to a man that is beyond many local tariff laws and trade restrictions. After that, it would be a simple mater of press-ganging at any local planet with the blessing of the world's Imperial govener, trading a few pretty bobbles or small favours for a few thousands able bodied men.

Now the ship is ready to live again, with all that is left to do while waiting for refits and crew assimilation to finish, is to name a captain, a lieutenant from your house or loyal retinue that you can trust to perform. Once named, the running of the ship is his responsibility, as is the selection of officers and all the tedious work that it is to being the master of the beast that is an imperial star ship.

A little too late to chime in perhaps, but I'll give my two cents.

(Like I recently posted on another thread) I would use the example of the 16th century explorers/privateers as an example of a crew. A Rogue Trader would attract those that want to make a name for themselves, see parts of the Galaxy no one has seen before, those that think they'll get rich exploring and trading...

People would likely indenture themselves to get onboard, leave chartist vessles if they're young and bored, quite/leave the Navy (which could be risky). I think a RT seeking a crew would get a lot of applicants, and he could take his pick of the litter. On the other hand, a Naval Captain or Hive Govenor won't want to see his most skilled and talented people leave their domain, so that would counterbalance the high number of people wanting to leave their menial jobs. It could actually be quite a mini-adventure to get the local sources of labour to loosen their grip.

As well, I like TK-4117's idea that you'd have to negotiate for the higher "officer" professionals like Navigators, Astropaths, Tech Priests.

As for crew proportions, I would play with 1% officer types, 9% warrant/petty officer types (senior skilled spacefarers and voidsmen), and 90% Able-Voidsmen, Landsmen, servitors, etc... To me, servitors are fit only for extremely menial and repetive tasks that must be constantly conducted. They're good for only one task, while a crewman is more versatile (can lift cargo AND shoot a macro-cannon AND put out a fire). As servitors are essentially cyborg-zombies, they'd be in need of maintainence and would slowly rot away, then replaced. A specialist Tech Priest would likely be required to create them, or a PC Tech Priest (since PC's tend to be multi-talented; that's why they're the heroes after all!). I'd think that servitors are not too common, they're just not versatile enough. They'd make up maybe 5-20% of the crew, depending on the relationship the RT has with the Mechanicum.

Amusingly enough, Lure of the Expanse has that 'regular' quality starship weapons have hundereds of sweating guy loading each gun, one tank sized round at a time. From the description, it almost sounds like they also are using a two hundred foot on a side cloth to swab the bore, and a hundred yard long pole to ram the charge home before hundreds of men hault it into position and someone lights the fuse on the ten ton black powder charge, since a flintlock would be too 'high tech'.

As I said before, they need those millions of men to haul on the oars that row the ship through space and run the brass cannon out through the wooden hull.

Rogue Trader, making Spelljammer look downright realistic since 2008.

However, 'best' quality guns have autoloaders. No stats are given for these, or even if they do ANYTHING AT ALL besides be a McGuffin. Several other items such as a new type of archeotech sensor are mentioned, but no stats are given. And we still have no rules for starship component quality. So what callign the guns 'best' quality means is still anyone's guess.

A few points:

1) BFG states there is considerable variation in the degrees of automation from vessel to vessel. Baseline vessels use a lot of brute force in the place of automation for the systems where muscle power can do the job. Others are much more sophisticated. One of the selling points of a Lunar is that you can build it even in systems that can't support a real space industry. Obviously a ship built at Mars is going to have more sophisticated systems and automation than Feral Worldia VI. Space Marine vessels are described as highly automated with small, well trained, well equipped crews, which makes sense if their vessels are built at the more advanced shipyards.

2) The Eisenhorn/Ravenor books take place centuries before the timeline for the Calixus Sector/Koronus Expanse campaigns. Ciaphas Cain's career starts before it and ends after it. If the Koronus Expanse is "too far in the past" to represent modern 40K, so are half the 40K novels.

Argoden said:

Good point, and Rogue traders have the influence and money to get Navy crews, not straight off active ships of course, but the point stands. Getting an actual Navy-trained crew would be fantastic, remembering that there are five levels of crew skill; Incompotent (Skills at 20%), Compotent (30%), Crack (40%), Veteran (50%) and Elite (60%).

An Imperial navy crew would be at least Crack. But it would take some effort to get them. And you could end up with a crew filled with the Navy's "malingerers and screwups" for Incompotent skilled crew if you fail your checks/adventure/endeavour.

A canny Rogue could always frequent battlegrounds and 'pick up' experienced crews that want off their crippled ships and out of a 'navy life'....

one of our captains inquired with a Mechanicus base how long it woudl take them to turn his crew into servitors, stem to stern...he got some odd looks from the rest of the Dynasty at the dinner table later that night.