Navar said:

Be sure my back is well guarded... maybe we will see again when the "Buy'Omatic" philosophy will start to kick in.

I really don't get how it's that different from v2, or any other RPG. There's going to be additional sourcebooks that provide additional detail. If you want to go somewhere in your campaign that isn't explicitly covered in the core set/book, you have two options: buy the product that covers this area, or make it up yourself based on whatever info you have. If I want to run a v2 game in Kislev, I have two options: get the Kislev book, or make it up myself. It [is/will be] the same for v3.

True, there's not the same information in the core set as v2, but it looks like there's more detail on some things. If I was running a long term campaign with JUST the v2 rulebook, I would have to make up a lot of stuff myself. I don't see how v3 is going to be much different in this regard. There aren't as many schools of magic detailed, but there's a more detailed bestiary. So in v3 I would have to make up more spells whereas in v2 I would have to make up more creatures. (Please note, I haven't actually seen v3 yet, I'm basing this off of what I've read.)

I also don't get the losing cards/components thing. Am I really the only one that is careful with my things? I still have childhood toys with all the original pieces (my Galvatron still lights up and makes noise!). I am planning on getting sleeves for all the cards in the new set, and putting the other things in clear page folders - I started doing this a long time ago for Battletech record sheets so I could use dry erase markers rather than pencils, works great. Before somebody asks, the people in my gaming group probably don't have quite as high a standard as me, but they do have respect for other people's belongings and wishes. So if I tell them that my things are to be handled in a certain way, they will honor my request.

NewTroski said:

Seriously? I hate you. All that I have left are lego (a few knights).

Anyways, the fear of losing bits is not one that I share. I've yet to lose a single clue token from Arkham Horror. And I have TWO cats.

NewTroski said:

Couldn't have said that better myself. It's not like v2 didn't also have a Wizard tome, a priest tome, that brought in all new forms of magical components. The core is a base system, then kit out the way you want. Personally, I never liked the huge amount of detail concentrated on spells in a core because it seemed to overshadow (and is never well balanced) compared to everything else in the game. I'd rather see it done properly without a bunch of reprinted spells in the suppliment as the v2 did and just concentrate with the core, giving us a tour for the setting, then detailing it out later.

I really don't get the losing thing either! Find a storage solution and get on with it. Those round, plastic bead tins work great for Arkham (I highly recommend them by the way, makes set up way, way faster) and they'd work great for these chippies as well. I have yet to lose an Arkham chip as well and we play in a house with 6 cats. Wow that sounds bitchy and was not intended as a so nyahhh!

Interesting point Erik has. How long a campaign do you think you can get before you HAVE to buy an expansion to handle, how far can the mechanics take you. Is there a third tier (advanced career from advanced) equivlent powered careers or greater? How big can the group get before you need to get more stuff?

In 2nd ed you could play a game as long as you like with as many as you like and never NEED to get anything else, all the mechanics were in that one book.

Considering the dice mechanic, even a new GM could easily write up alternate careers, settings, and monsters. The dice give such a strong narrative and flexibility, there's nothing out of reach of the core rules with minimal effort.

Already, I'm writing up (and have run a session for) an "inadvertent nautical" campaign, based out of Magritta and Saragosa with adventures all across the Southlands. Ship chases, old Slann tech, and plenty of risky swashbuckling practiacally write themselves, rules-wise. Just based on the core mechanics, there are quite a few options.

Loswaith said:

Well, seems that someone actually reads my posts properly before answering them.

To those that responded V3 marketing philosophy is equal to V2 one, try re reading this post... do you still think the same?

Erik Bauer said:

And now for something completely different...

Nope, it's right back to the condescending attitude and thinly veiled insults.

NewTroski said:

No veiled insults... I just stated that because I sometime have the impression that some people posts answers to my posts without full reading them. In fact most answers to my cricicism tend to run around my argument rather than confronting with it... a thing that can get frustrating over time.

And your answer makes no difference...

Loswaith said:

This is among my biggest issues with this edition. The limited scope of the "Core" rules, in comparison to the previous editions. Again with out reading and playing the game I can't tell i if this is an issue or not. Off the cuff, it looks like a cause for concern to me. I don't think my players are going to be eager to start a new campaign every several months, because theres no where left (that makes sense) to advance to.....

commoner said:

Ok... let's try to put it in other words...

Let's put that I've got just V2 Handbook because I've very few money to spend, and I'm GMing a campaign since 3 years. My Pcs are quite high level and differentiate.

Let's say among them I've got a Jade Magister and an Annointed priest of Ulric...

Of course it is a simulated situation, but we are roleplayers and we should not have problems pretending it real for a moment.

Now I go into the GDR shop and I see the new-shiny V3 Box, I fall in love for the quality of the product and want to GM my campaign converting it from V2 to V3... I try to evaluate if V3 is for me... when I discover that in the basic box there is enough material for running wizards up to Journeyman and that Jade lore is left for future expansions. Same thing for Priests... I'm a moneyless GM and the basic box alone costs 100$ at the shop!

My first reaction would be to turn back and go out of the shop without V3.

My example is sort of an extreme situation but I think it serves well it's purpose: creating the basis for my question "Why on Earth is V3 Basic box containing less gaming material and providing less gaming opportunities than V2 Basic book other than for an overpushed marketing philosophy?"

Now, maybe someone can give me a good explanation for this, maybe some FFG staff reading my posts (I'm sure they do read us). I'm not accusing anybody, I just want to be assured that this product is not a collectionable roleplaying game before buying it, as I'm totally against (You have to buy that expansion in order to play this) products.

PS: the "do yourself the careers you do not find in the base product" answers are not valid for two main reasons

1)I pay A LOT for the basic box, so I ask from it to provide me at least what I found in V2 basic book

2)With all the cards, tokens, actions, custom career sheets and the like, self producing careers is no more matter of putting down an advance scheme but a more demanding job so GMs with not much free time are in fact out of this (mmm I see a pattern here....)

NezziR said:

Oh, I did miss that answer... you know what? I continue to reiterate this opinion because i'd REALLY like V3 being of my tastes and while some of it is (Some rules and solutions seem very smart and innovative, WFRP speaking), there is something behind (read: marketing philosophy) that really stops me from purchasing it.

Erik, I gather that the core set will support, if you are advancing in a purely linear fashion, 10-20 gaming sessions with the same, new, characters. Careers seem to have around ten advances, with one or two advances granted per session. There is only a second tier of careers. Like v2, it doesn't seem to be built for characters to push through to the "top" of a linear advancement though, so for new characters, you could easily double that.

Your veteran player scenario, however, hits on what is probably one of the biggest weaknesses of the core set - you, the GM, would be on the hook for creating/converting rules for everything you described. Considering the flexibility of the rules system, I don't feel that converting from v2 would be nearly as challenging as you describe - particularly considering that many mechanics are fairly similar. The new form factor and psuedo-collectible nature (in the same way that old splatbooks might be considered collectible) is likely a very deliberate decision I'd bet, and depending on how sales go, may have been too much of a risk. Perhaps not; perhaps the physical components carry enough of a perceived value for some players (particularly those without a stake in v2) to embrace the fact that the core set has less pre-generated content than v2.

For my part, I'm embracing the new verison fully. I'm a fan of fiddly bits and components to some extent, but moreso the ease of play and offloading of rules responsibility on players - this is *huge* and has made the game more fun for me than nearly any RPG I've ever run, other than a free-form rules light session or two. That, to me, adds more value than having all eight colleges or rat catchers in the base set. I'm not wearing hats of money, but I've held my gaming budget for the past few months to be able to purchase this, and will do the same for expansions - the value is there, for my group and my style of playing games. I'm half tempted to sell off chunks of my nearly complete v1 and 2 collections to help fund that (though I think the completionist in my will veto that idea in the long run).

So really, I think you're right. For the components you value, v3 just doesn't offer what you want. I don't think you'll need to buy additional books to run it, but that answer may vary depending on how willing you are to convert, or how veteran your players (and their characters) are.

Mr. Erik, why don't you just put it in your signature

I don’t know what any of you are talking about? I’m thumbing through my copy of Warhammer Fantasy Role-play and this book has over 100 character careers, over 130 skills, 7 types of magic with over 150 spells, equipment and magic item sections with a treasure building guide, a huge bestiary with over 100 creatures and ways to customize them, an extensive history on the world, a world-building section, and an introductory adventure. No, I’m sorry it doesn’t come with funky dice that can’t be used for anything else. Nor does it have flashy cards telling me what I can and can not do. And I believe this book is good for any amount of players? Let me see… yes. Oh wait… this is 1st edition. And it was only $29.95 USD? Wow; the times, they are a changing.

While 3e does have a few fewer things than v2 ...

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

There is actually more information overall in the 3e books total than the v2 book. See my pics, and thumb through both the v2 and all the 3e books. So, yeah, if you play every week and force your group to advance as quickly as possible, you will probably 'cap out' the Core Set before the rest of the advanced careers get released. Yes, you'll need to buy some expansions that contain some of these advanced careers. Would it have been nice if they included them in the Core Set? Sure. One thing to keep in mind, that the careers of Wizards and Priests, for example, are different each rank. Unlike v1/v2, where Wizard 1-4 are the same career just with different "levels". In 3e, they will be customizing each rank of wizard with some different available advances in skills, actions, etc. I'm just saying.

For me, it's not really that big a deal. I was already going to buy that WFRP Companion/Tome of Salvation/etc expansion. Now, it also comes with the advanced careers for wizards/priests. Woohoo, bonus!

calibur1 said:

I never ceased to be amused at how many people on RPG forums are in complete and utter denial about the concept of inflation.

IE - that 1st edition book would more expensive now than it was in 1995. Probably not 100$, of course, but more.

Necrozius said:

Also, I think it's unlikely that any modern RPG company (read: the surviving ones) would sacrifice an ongoing revenue stream and dump *everything* into a single, comprehensive book anymore. As we're seeing, they're trying to find ways to add value (in the subjective sense, of course) without dropping everything people want into a single book. Still a better hobby value than a 60-dollar ten hour video game, in my mind. By a lot.

Necrozius said:

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi

What cost $29 in 1995 would cost $40.59 in 2008.

Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2008 and 1995, they would cost you $99 and $71.62 respectively.

(I just went to the first link on google that matched "inflation calculator" and had a good stumbleupon rating.)

Just for reference. So, 1E basically cost $40.

Terwox said:

Ah. I stand corrected. So it would only be ten bux more now. Hmm

Necrozius said:

Oh heck, I was just trying to back you up with numbers actually! Your point is still quite valid comparing $29 to $99 is erroneous.

Necrozius said:

LOL! That was my first thought.: Did you adjust it for inflation . As much as I loved WFRP 1, and still do, the price needs to be kept in context. When it was NEW, it was pretty pricey at the time.

Still what it did/does have over 2 and 3, is it is an all in one deal. That was part of what made it so great.

I know I am repeating my self, but I can not feel slightly disappointed in the content. of 3rd. But, Hey. I am getting a copy anyway. I am kinda a rule "junkie". And they do look pretty neat.....

Of course by the looks of it, between jobs, school, and "life" we may not be gaming as often. So it may not be an issue......

Adjusting for inflation is one factor. However, it is my understanding that the relative cost of printing has gone up as well. So it would be even more than $40, unless the publisher is willing to accept a smaller profit margin than normal.

Not to mention the fact that 3e is full color with glorious art and tons of die-cut fiddly bits, cards and custom dice (not saying everybody has to like that, just that it's a fact). Compare that to the 1st edition book (which I have in all its B&W pencil-and-line-art tiny print majesty). The paper doesn't compare. 1e was perfect-bound too, like the current incarnation, only large enough that the spine self-destructed and the corners disintegrated very early on.

Come on folks apples/oranges.

CaffeineBoy said:

LOL! Yeah, I love that stuff. I own like... 6 or 7 copies of the v1 book. I bought some, some got dumped at my house, some I don't even know where they came from. Some of them are original print hard backs (still in solid condition). I love the smell of the musty old things and the look of the line art on their yellow pages They have aged gracefully.

My library is a dumping place for people that get too many books and need some place to 'store' them - consequently, it also has a very lax 'lending' policy, but I still end up with more and more books every year. I've spent as much money on shelves as I have books.