Tomorrow, November 11th, is Veteran's Day.

I would like to take this opportunity to say thank you for your service. While this is an American holiday, I would like to extend my gratitude to veteran's of all nations.

We will be grilling steaks, home grown corn and potatoes, and raising the slightly chilled case of Rogue beer I have in the game room cooler in toast to our fellow veterans world wide. I hope you have a great day!

Salute,

Nez

NezziR said:

If that's the case, you guys stole it from us. November 11th, 1918 was officially the end of WW I. That day the treaty between France, England and Germany was signed in a train wagon (at 11 o'clock I believe).

It was seen not just as the end of WW I but also as the end of all wars. So, for one day, let us join those leaders who signed it in thinking this naive notion that there will never be a war again...

sudden real said:

I always found that part of history to be quite strange to be honest. WW 1 didn't really "end" when you think about it, it was just a short "ceasefire" between the nations involved. WW 1 left germany in a shattered state so it's no wonder why a nationalist party like the naziparty would go out to war again as soon as it could.

But then again, all wars are born from some kind of nationalist ideal. I might consider celebrating a "veterans day" if said veterans fought to unite the world rather than fighting for "the right to be divided into different nations". A divided world is a bad world, the sooner we can stop fighting and guarding our borders and instead uniting with the common goal of exploring outer space together the better. It is the next logical step for the human evolution after all.

So as for this veterans day I'll send my sympathies to all veterans out there who had to take part in being abused by their selfish, separatist governments. It's a shame your fighting couldn't have been for a more noble goal...

Veteran's Day was named that in the 1950s, it was originaloly Armistice Day and dated back to the end of WW1.

Even the best of intentions can go horribly wrong

Lesson learned.

NezziR said:

Indeed, but I don't think this went wrong. It's all too easy to forget the true meaning of today and just enjoy the day off from work. Thanks for reminding us.

edit: actually now that I think of it, your quote may have become the unintended intention of this day. After France, England and Germany signed the peace treaty, France and England set up the proto-type of the UN (without Germany because they had lost the war). Because of the severe penalties in the treaty (it stated that Germany started the war, even though it was an escalation of French-German tensions but as they say, the victors write history, Germany had to pay a huge debt, and they weren't allowed to expand their industry, leaving the country in a shattered state), this became one of the reasons why WW2 started. The proto-type UN was taken by surprise (since they had no contact with Germany) and fell apart. After WW2 they created the UN (and included Germany this time) and decided to be more diplomatic and humane about their treaties.

NezziR said:

Hehe, hey. That's post vietnam war era for ya.

Ever since then, the "glory" of warfare have sort of snuck out since the common man learned what ugly and counter-productive business war really is. Not that it is the veterans fault, nor even modern day soldiers fault. They're just following orders after all, and the chain of command in that type of job is just as important as the ethical rules that doctors have to adhere to in the medical practice.

There are some really narrow minded people who would place the blame on the individual soldiers. Thinking that if they were smart and productive they wouldn't have joined up in the first place. But personally I resent that narrow mindset. No would be soldier actually joins up because they want to shoot or injure people (in fact, most modern armies actually reject applicants that show these urges even as early as bootcamp), they joined up for a variety of reasons, just like with any kind of job. But as with any business they are taught to adhere to certain rules, and the chain of command is holy in any army regardless of which country you're serving. Usually it is the chain of command that keep cohesion of the troops, and keep them from acting irrational or destructive in situations where most people really would do just that.

The thing is, the ultimate controller of this chain of command is the politicians in any government. So in any counter-productive war (meaning: all wars), it all bottles down to the politicians. As always, everything is the government's fault. It doesn't matter where you go in the world, the ultimate culprit will always be the government.

So you gotta hand it to the soldiers and veterans for sticking to the chain of command which they have been taught to follow, regardless of which side of any conflict they fought in (yes, this include the german soldiers during WW2 regardless of how awful it may seem). It can't be an easy task having to follow some seriously stupid instructions given by the "higher ups" in the government. Also it can't be easy to having to survive these "playgrounds from hell" that we call battlefields which the governments of the world create when they order their armies to war.

So congratulations to all veterans who managed to pull through and who most of the time managed to stick with the principles they were taught to follow. You can't praise their actions because all wars are inherently wrong and a testament to the ultimate in human stupidity and failure. But you can praise the individual soldiers for showing some serious strength of fibre for surviving and not giving up the principles they promised to follow, even if it meant going and killing other people and possibly getting maimed themselves in the process.

It's a rotten job to have, but sort of admirable to not abandon. And I think that most soldiers genuinely wish that the world didn't need any soldiers at all...

Varnias Tybalt said:

Hey, what's more noble and decent for an adequate man than to fight for the freedom of his own country?

Or should we, perhaps, have surrendered and "united" under one banner of Adolf Hitler's, for example?

Back to the OP....

As a Veteran I appreciate the post and am very much enjoying my day off today.

Up here in Canada it's Remembrance Day, and although the main focus is WWI and WWII, thoughts go to all soldiers in wars of the past century.

Necrozius said:

Ditto for the UK

egalor said:

egalor said:

But, then there's the matter of remembering the soldiers who fought for the third reich. They were as decent people too, for the most part. And so ascribing nobility is problematic.

I think we should remember the people who died fighting for whatever cause with thoughtfulness and dignity. But we should also remember that nationalism is not always noble and many people died fighting for other people's nationalist ideals, not their own.

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!–An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,–
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

monkeylite said:

" Dulce " absolutely not, but " decorum " - definitely.

BTW, haven't you heard of different kinds of war, like agressive and defensive ones?

Quite a poignant Rememberance day for me, found one Grandads war pictures (he was an RAF engineer, serving in Egypt and Burma) and have just sent off to apply for my other Grandads service medals

Hi NezziR ,

Thank-you for opening the thread - much appreciated after 21 years in the Marine Corps.

egalor said:

Nationalism is what keeps the world apart. Nationalism is what's create wars. Nationalism is what dehumanise the other side and makes people think in terms of "us and them". Nationalism is the most primitive ideology that still lingers in the world today and something that mankind will sooner or later have to let go or mankind will tear itself apart.

So no, I don't agree that I find it "noble" to fight for a specific country. Because it all bottles down to nationalistic ideals on some level.

As for your remark about Hitler, I've explicitly written that nationalism/patriotism are inherently bad, so why would I advocate joining such an ultra-nationalist as Adolf Hitler?

Hitler didn't order the german army to rampage across Europe for altruistic goals, he did it because he possessed the worst kind of "us and them"-thinking. He dehumanised the victims of the german army to such a level where they weren't even considered human anymore.

So no, we shouldn't have surrendered and united under Hitler's banner. Nor have I suggested that we should. But that doesn't excuse nationalism or the constant pissing away of vital resources in raising "defense" armies and developing new weapons of war intended to kill human beings...

While I can appreciate the intentions for members who wish to show support for veterans across cultures and nationalities, topics dealing with politics, religion, military, and other social issues are not well-suited to this forum.

Before the discussion devolves into political or social commentary, I would ask forum members to keep discussions on task.

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