I am have been thinking of trying to do a Rogue Squadron Type game focused on Star fighter combat. I want it to have the same feel as the Flying tigers, Black sheep squadron, or even "A Piece of Cake". Limited resources, faceless enemies, very low attrition, and high kill ratio.

The problem I run into, is that with the RAW, most star fighters can take 1 or maybe 2 hits before exceeding their hull trauma. Which is good if you are hitting the bad guys, not so good if you are getting hit. Also, not the best environment if you want to challenge players. Some ideas I have come up with is reducing the damage of enemy fighters (AKA "plot armor") expanding the Critical hit table to add more "gripes"

anyone have ideas?

To increase lifespan, some have made some house rules. DarthGM(??) I think has a house rule that allows you to use handling like the parry/reflect talents, while EmperorNorton had a whole vehicle combat revamp that had a similar rule using defense/shields. Might try those, see how hey work.

I played in a game very similar to what you're describing. My GM gave us regular exp and "piloting exp" that could only be spent on specific talent trees and skills.

He also increased/upgraded diff to hit people based off speed.. not just silhouette. It's been a while, so I'm not sure, but I think he ran it like skills and characteristics for setting diff. With the silhouette chart being one stat line and the speed chart (the one that determines how far you can fly in a a maneuver) as the other.

I would explain more, but am on break and gotta get back to work, let me know if what I just said makes sense and I will explain more if necessary.

My husband wrote up a post about survivability in space combat, which you can find here if you're interested in reading it! I don't know much about space combat, I don't do much of it and what little space combat I encounter, I'm usually in the engine room of a YT-2400 and doing mechanics checks all day.

But he has a lot of great ideas about how to keep the party alive during dogfighting, what abilities they should use, how a GM should plan for space combat, etc.

Lots of small groups of weak minions will help, don't be afraid to make your own stat blocks up.

Heavy use of the Evasive Maneuvers, Stay on Target and Gain the Advantage by your pc's. especially if the PC ships have co-pilots or Astromecs performing the Co-Pilot action, it makes a huge difference to the difficulty of those checks. Sometimes a PC ship with 2 crew and an Astromec (3 PC's in a Starfighter is a force to be reckoned with. especially if 1 is a Rigger, 1 is a Gunner and 1 is a Starfighter Ace or Pilot.)

Having a Gunner in the PC's ships is super helpful as well, if 1 PC can Gain the Advantage then another can shoot they will hit a lot more often and a lot harder.

True Aim is amazing!

Use the Environment... Put lots of stuff in space.

Use the Chase rules a lot, it brings a lot of variety to the encounters.

Get the Stay on Target supplement!

Player characters are the only thing in the galaxy which can be made more cheaply than TIE fighter armor. Kill, load up the next one, repeat. It's all good.

Use the Environment... Put lots of stuff in space.

Other than a half destroyed space station or ships graveyard I really struggle to think of stuff to use as obstacles in space combat.

Use the Environment... Put lots of stuff in space.

Other than a half destroyed space station or ships graveyard I really struggle to think of stuff to use as obstacles in space combat.

The aforementioned space station, either fully intact or any level of destruction, a ship graveyard (I like this one a lot, actually), a drydock for a ship builder, asteroids, comet tails, capital ship, gas clouds, star forming nebulae, electric storms, black holes, the exit for a hyperspace lane, space whales, explosions, using a nearby star to wash out your ship; leading the enemy into having to attack toward the glare, a ring of satellites in orbit, planetary ring system, a small moon or planetoid with a cryo geyser shooting ice into space, a totally separate ongoing battle, the actual edge of the galaxy for those with a fear of flying blindly into the black.

Great list there Comrade.

How about the surface of a massive Asteroid, Moon, Space Station or Capital Ship?

In Atmosphere encounters is good too, think the Falcon/Tie chase in TFA.

To increase lifespan, some have made some house rules. DarthGM(??) I think has a house rule that allows you to use handling like the parry/reflect talents, while EmperorNorton had a whole vehicle combat revamp that had a similar rule using defense/shields. Might try those, see how hey work.

I would like some more specifics. Instead of trying to search for them on my own

To increase lifespan, some have made some house rules. DarthGM(??) I think has a house rule that allows you to use handling like the parry/reflect talents, while EmperorNorton had a whole vehicle combat revamp that had a similar rule using defense/shields. Might try those, see how hey work.

I would like some more specifics. Instead of trying to search for them on my own

My group fears space combat. I gave them the GHT-whatever. Get Rock, the flying turtle...

I gave them one of those, and lifted them against three TIE fighters. Minions. Gave them an aggressive posture, and they skirted it. ...and have skirted ever space or aerial battle since.

But my idea was to use Speed. If you are speed 0, and TARGET is speed 3, if you were to fire upon them you would suffer one setback for every point difference in your speeds. 0 to 1, 1 to 2, then 2 to 3. This encourages either placid lines of fire like a redcoat, or fast paced action to keep or mitigate set back dice.

Then, the the ranks in defense were to act as ranks in deflect like the lightsaber trees.

Not been play tested yet. Alas.

I would love to play or GM a campaign like that, sounds great. I think one of the best things you can do is use the squadron rules included with the GM screen. This would allow each PC to have a couple of NPC wingmen that can take the hits when neccessary and keep the PC's alive longer. It can increase the tension as wingmen are picked off and the PC needs to decide whether to continue the fight or run. It would also allow you to throw harder challenges at them than if it was just the PCs alone.

Use the Environment... Put lots of stuff in space.

Other than a half destroyed space station or ships graveyard I really struggle to think of stuff to use as obstacles in space combat.

The aforementioned space station, either fully intact or any level of destruction, a ship graveyard (I like this one a lot, actually), a drydock for a ship builder, asteroids, comet tails, capital ship, gas clouds, star forming nebulae, electric storms, black holes, the exit for a hyperspace lane, space whales, explosions, using a nearby star to wash out your ship; leading the enemy into having to attack toward the glare, a ring of satellites in orbit, planetary ring system, a small moon or planetoid with a cryo geyser shooting ice into space, a totally separate ongoing battle, the actual edge of the galaxy for those with a fear of flying blindly into the black.

There is a great bit on Dogfight Terrain in Stay on Target, page 77-79. Includes some great inspiration for spending Adv/Tri/Thr/Des.

There is a great bit on Dogfight Terrain in Stay on Target, page 77-79. Includes some great inspiration for spending Adv/Tri/Thr/Des.

Use the Environment... Put lots of stuff in space.

Other than a half destroyed space station or ships graveyard I really struggle to think of stuff to use as obstacles in space combat.

The aforementioned space station, either fully intact or any level of destruction, a ship graveyard (I like this one a lot, actually), a drydock for a ship builder, asteroids, comet tails, capital ship, gas clouds, star forming nebulae, electric storms, black holes, the exit for a hyperspace lane, space whales, explosions, using a nearby star to wash out your ship; leading the enemy into having to attack toward the glare, a ring of satellites in orbit, planetary ring system, a small moon or planetoid with a cryo geyser shooting ice into space, a totally separate ongoing battle, the actual edge of the galaxy for those with a fear of flying blindly into the black.

Ok... Now I've got plenty of ideas!!! That's an awesome list, I have been avoiding space combat with my players as I didn't want it to get samey... no danger of that now ) Mucho mucho kudos Comrade!! And also loving the massive asteroid idea RichardBuxton! Cheers guys.

That list is, I hope, a good amount of obstacles and terrain for space... but if you want some dangers or set pieces...

Caught on the edge of the event horizon and your hyperdrive won't go with the massive gravity well if the black hole. Can you hammer the engine long enough to deactivate the safety and launch into hyoerspace to escape? It's a chase where rolling badly moves you backward, and too far back can be... Let's call it very bad.

In a dim and dark system, from the far side of a long dead planetoid comes a marauding... enemy of some kind! Punch it Chewie! Through the system you race, the ships closing in behind the whole time. There's only one chance, you have to disable them all at once before they get into weapons range. Only a careful and skilled pilot, one of the galaxy's greatest, can fly by the neutron star, avoid the pulse, and have the enemies get caught in the next blast.

We've used the "Snap Roll" idea DarthGM has on his blog page to good effect. Also makes the Pilot (x) skill(s) seem more useful. HERE

I think that the core of your problem is that there isn't a scaling of stat blocks and challenge for space combat. There's no easy and effective analogue for the minion/rival/nemesis series that ground encounters get to use.

One direct way to increase survivability would be to double the hull trauma threshold of the ships the players are using depending on how many hits you think each of their ships would be able to take. You could do the same thing for significant antagonists. Perhaps minion-y enemy ships got down in one hit automatically.

This would be less tactical and realistic than many of the house rules for dodging, but at the same time it would be less finicky, and you wouldn't have to teach it to your players.

I think that the core of your problem is that there isn't a scaling of stat blocks and challenge for space combat. There's no easy and effective analogue for the minion/rival/nemesis series that ground encounters get to use.

One direct way to increase survivability would be to double the hull trauma threshold of the ships the players are using depending on how many hits you think each of their ships would be able to take. You could do the same thing for significant antagonists. Perhaps minion-y enemy ships got down in one hit automatically.

This would be less tactical and realistic than many of the house rules for dodging, but at the same time it would be less finicky, and you wouldn't have to teach it to your players.

But, if I don't make a house rule, how can I keep feeling so smug?

I think that the core of your problem is that there isn't a scaling of stat blocks and challenge for space combat. There's no easy and effective analogue for the minion/rival/nemesis series that ground encounters get to use.

The minion rules, applied to fighters, do have a MAJOR nerfing factor: only the first one gets soak, and any crit kills.

So, a pair of 10 point hits to a flight of 3 soak 2 HT 5 Ties (A-B-C) gives 3 excess, so KO and only one crit from overage on A, and another one with KO & crit.

10 point hit to a minion group of 3 ties (A-B-C): Soak reduces to 8, next 5 kill A, B takes 3. Second hit Soak eats 2, B eats 3, C eats 5. And, being minions, KO=kill.

Gets even worse when you add advantage... because a crit on a non-minion fighter is just a +10 to the crit roll. Sure, it's out of action, but the NPC might be able to fix a point of HT or two and join back in.

A minion fighter, however, like it's minion pilot, simply goes boom for a crit.

It does make a big difference between Hero/Villain Ties and runof the mill Minion-group ties.

Tried it and, to be honest, it works fine unmodified.

Remember that 'exceeds hull trauma threshold' isn't the same as 'dead'.

Lethal criticals take a while to really matter; a minion in a fighter that exceeds trauma threshold is confetti, but a PC can take two or three good hits over and above their theoretical 'damage capacity'.

If you're concerned, start them in X-wings with NPC astromech droids (there's some good condensed rules for NPC 'mechs in Stay On Target). But as long as the players understand that starfighter combat is dangerous, and prioritise their own survival over getting kills, they'll be fine.

An X-wing against a minion pilot should have his deflectors shunted double-front (because as long as no-one pulls gain the advantage there's no risk), and can use evasive maneuvers as his maneuver (because the difficulty upgrade hits less competent pilots worse).

A generic TIE pilot also pulling evasive maneuvers will be trying to shoot at the X-wing with a pool of three green dice versus two red and two black dice. That's not a winning combination and will miss as often as it hits, and hand out setback dice just as often, and that's not taking into account flipping destiny points as required.

One effect of the dice pool with advantage/threat is to reward over-succeeding and punish people who take long shots rather than trying to improve their odds. Since fighter pilot PCs should always be more competent than NPC minions, there's an advantage hidden in the core game rules.

This goes double in a more agile fighter - the A-wing may look like it's made of wafers, but with one rank each of defensive driving and tricky target, combined with the jammer, it's **** difficult for a 3-green-dice attack to hit. More importantly, you can alternate pulling Gain The Advantage - not just to improve your own shot (which is nice) but because gain the advantage in a well-handling, faster ship is a trivial piloting check that gives you the opportunity to rack up lots of advantage - meaning even more setback for the enemies, or setting up a shot that'll wipe out an entire minion group at once by triggering linked.

Tried it and, to be honest, it works fine unmodified.

Remember that 'exceeds hull trauma threshold' isn't the same as 'dead'.

While technically true, it's cold comfort to the PCs that have to pay to repair or replace their poor ship every space encounter. That gets expensive real quick. There's also the funny thing that PCs who specialize in a certain thing like their character to at least be decent at said thing. No one expects the Solder or the Hired Gun to eat dirt every single time, so why should the Ace expect to always suck vacuum?

Lethal criticals take a while to really matter; a minion in a fighter that exceeds trauma threshold is confetti, but a PC can take two or three good hits over and above their theoretical 'damage capacity'.

If you're concerned, start them in X-wings with NPC astromech droids (there's some good condensed rules for NPC 'mechs in Stay On Target). But as long as the players understand that starfighter combat is dangerous, and prioritise their own survival over getting kills, they'll be fine.

An X-wing against a minion pilot should have his deflectors shunted double-front (because as long as no-one pulls gain the advantage there's no risk), and can use evasive maneuvers as his maneuver (because the difficulty upgrade hits less competent pilots worse).

A generic TIE pilot also pulling evasive maneuvers will be trying to shoot at the X-wing with a pool of three green dice versus two red and two black dice. That's not a winning combination and will miss as often as it hits, and hand out setback dice just as often, and that's not taking into account flipping destiny points as required.

One effect of the dice pool with advantage/threat is to reward over-succeeding and punish people who take long shots rather than trying to improve their odds. Since fighter pilot PCs should always be more competent than NPC minions, there's an advantage hidden in the core game rules.

This goes double in a more agile fighter - the A-wing may look like it's made of wafers, but with one rank each of defensive driving and tricky target, combined with the jammer, it's **** difficult for a 3-green-dice attack to hit. More importantly, you can alternate pulling Gain The Advantage - not just to improve your own shot (which is nice) but because gain the advantage in a well-handling, faster ship is a trivial piloting check that gives you the opportunity to rack up lots of advantage - meaning even more setback for the enemies, or setting up a shot that'll wipe out an entire minion group at once by triggering linked.

With the way space combat works and ship stats being what they are, 9 times out of 10 a PC ship will hit it's hull threshold long before criticals kill it. That's kind of the whole sticking point of space combat; everything below a light freighter is too **** fragile.

And there is no common situation where places will be facing 3 green dice. TIE minions have skills in gunnery and piloting, and you're running them in groups of at least three, meaning you have to contend with three YELLOW dice. You're also assuming they'll use Evasive Maneuvers, which isn't a given: TIE's know their defense comes from attacking in numbers and killing the enemy before they whittle those numbers down. An intelligent TIE minion group will use their maneuver to Aim, giving them a pool of three yellow and one blue vs 1 red, 1 purple, 2 black. They could also go for a GtA instead of aim, sacrificing the blue for a chance at going against 2 purple and nothing else. In fact, given their high handling, that's probably the smartest thing the TIEs can do. Either way though, the PC doesn't have the odds much in the favor.

Regarding the A-wing, first of all good freaking luck surviving long enough to take any ranks in defensive talents. About the only way you'll do it is if you earn all that XP on the ground. Second, what exactly is tricky target supposed to do? The difficulty for firing is the same for a ship one silhouette above or below you. A TIE firing on an A-wing (Sil 3 vs sil 3) faces 2 purple. A TIE firing on an A-wing with Tricky target (Sil 3 vs sil 2) faces...2 purple. Yeah, awesome. Defensive driving adds a single setback die per rank. Too little, and far too late. And God forbid you play a Hotshot, or any other Ace tree that doesn't come with that talent.

The only defensive talent that actually works to any degree is the Brilliant Evasion talent. And that only works because it literally makes you untargetable. Against a single enemy, so hope you don't run into more than one minion group/ship.

No, the space combat rules work great if you're in a light freighter or starship, but absolutely stink for anyone who wanted to get in a fighter and dogfight.

groups of at least three, meaning you have to contend with three YELLOW dice.

Correct me if im wrong, but isnt it one yellow dice per aditional minion in a group after the first?

Agility 3 minion rolls 3 green.

Agility 3 group of two minions rolls 2 green and 1 yellow.

Agility 3 group of three minions rolls 1 green and 2 yellow.

An intelligent TIE minion group will use their maneuver to Aim, giving them a pool of three yellow and one blue vs 1 red, 1 purple, 2 black.

If they Aim, they will likely not be able to move during that turn, and his target can get away. Unless he doesn't mind attacking every two rounds. Assuming his ship is faster than his target's, otherwise the target can easily get away.

We've used the "Snap Roll" idea DarthGM has on his blog page to good effect. Also makes the Pilot (x) skill(s) seem more useful. HERE

Oh, I really like that. I think I might change it slightly though, and limit the maximum damage reduction to current speed. This seems a nice way to factor speed into the equation, while placing a hard limit on how much damage can be cancelled, and keep things a bit closer to raw.

Well, if they are going to be a squadron of fighter pilots you should probably give them a support network that takes care of repairs. Give them missions with payments in parts as rewards too. Maybe have a separate NPC salvage crew part of their group that goes in and recovers parts and supplies from their kills to make repairs easier. Maybe the salvage crew comes in picks up the PC ships that have been disabled too so that getting knocked out in a battle isn't the end of the adventure for that character.

When a ship's hull threshold has been released is the ship automatically disabled? If not then that allows the players to keep going while risking more criticals. It turns HT into more like an ablative armor that protects from the nasty hits. If it does, then maybe consider allowing the PCs to do that.