[snip]

Now with math, because it was needed?

Quantifying the impact of the title helps me gain a more objective understanding of its utility.

Besides, I was already working on these simulations a few days ago on as I've been building a very similar list to clontroper5's over the last few weeks. To make informed decisions, I wanted to find the probability of destroying various ships to see how much points I would like to spend on the Demolisher upgrades (essentially comparing EXL, APT, Screed and Vader).

No amount of math will be able to determine the effectiveness of possible movement opportunities offered by Demolisher.

No amount of math will be able to determine the effectiveness of possible movement opportunities offered by Demolisher.

Last I checked, Demolisher does not add any movement.

No amount of math will be able to determine the effectiveness of possible movement opportunities offered by Demolisher.

Last I checked, Demolisher does not add any movement.

Being able to shoot after you move is considered "movement opportunities" to me.

I've written some MATLAB code to simulate attacks from ships and calculate the probability to reach a certain amount of damage.

The following is for a "Clonisher" (without CF) against any ship with 1 brace token. Extra curves compare the damage probabilities when removing any one of the upgrades (including demolisher). Each curve is generated from 100 000 attacks.

Calling ~90% confidence of success "reliable", we can say that:

• A Clonisher can reliably deal 14 damage against ships with a brace token.
• Removing Screed orOrdinance Expert reduces the reliable damage by 2
• Removing Expanded Launchers or Intel Officer reduces the reliable damage by 4
• Removing Demolisher reduces the reliable damage by 6

Assumptions:

1. Attack sequence is front, front, side (skip the first front if not using Demolisher)

2. Target has one brace token

3. If there's a ready Intel Officer, it always targets brace

4. Accuracies are accounted for only to the extent that they stop the target from using brace tokens

6. Rerolls on black dice are done on all non hit+crit results

7. Damage card face up effects (such as structural damage) is not accounted for

This just in: Demolisher title is good.

Now with math, because it was needed?

Everyone knows Demolisher is good. Malle quantifies how good.

I wrote a monte carlo sim for a similar reason (APT vs ACM vs ExL on MC30s). Some people like using math or computers to help them make decisions. I thought it was pretty interesting and well-presented.

And I could definitely see running into the situation where I had to drop one of the upgrades from a Demo if I was stretched for points; this chart would help in deciding which one.

edit: holy nested quotes, Batman

I think they meant movement possibilities of the Clonisher load out, which adds Engine Techs, and has Ozzel as the admiral. When you think about that combo, you can move at speed one, two or three, add a click to any of them with a Nav command, and trigger Engine Techs for an additional move and click. That's a pretty wide range to guess where they'll end up.

Malle - what decision was used on WHEN to use brace? I think that the subtler conclusion is that Demolisher is more efficient, damage wise, than the other non-screed upgrades too (at the 90%ile).

Also, since you already have it setup - what's the difference between EXL and ACM? (I expect about a damage less)

Malle - what decision was used on WHEN to use brace? I think that the subtler conclusion is that Demolisher is more efficient, damage wise, than the other non-screed upgrades too (at the 90%ile).

Also, since you already have it setup - what's the difference between EXL and ACM? (I expect about a damage less)

Good catch. Brace was used on the first attack when available. I might change it to optimal defensive use (reduce the attack with the most damage) or set a threshold. I'm just not sure what that threshold should be, as it would likely vary from ship to ship.

Here's APT and ACM included:

Wow...

Sanity checks:

ACM does 2 additional, non-braceable damage. With the rate of crits with this setup, that's almost a guaranteed 6 extra damage over no upgrade.The graphs seem to agree with that.

Edit: Fixed mislabeled point cost difference for ACM

Edit #2: Here's a quite messy chart, comparing an "ACM Clonisher" running Screed and one running Vader.

That's 60% for 21 damage, enough to kill a non-motti ISD from the front.

Yes, ACMs is 6 damage extra damage but that is taken by shields. Really the use is to limit shield use by the redirects. APT's on the other hand are used to cripple a ship

If only FF used math for Armada, and more importantly for X-wing....a game they really messed up on.

Ok, so I'm only being semi rhetorically with this post, but it have to ask what this sudden concern over the Demo title is about. It's always been a solid gladiator title, an I easily consider it an auto include when running a Glad.

What suddenly changed that makes it need a change.

While haven't gotten deep into the thought process, everything I'm reading from people seems unremarkable in concept, it's just making use strong card combinations and and first player activation advantage.

So if someone can, break it down for this plebeian on to why a card should be changed when it seems more like player skill is making it powerful.

Q

Yes, ACMs is 6 damage extra damage but that is taken by shields. Really the use is to limit shield use by the redirects. APT's on the other hand are used to cripple a ship

I like both equally because of the math and you reason. Stipimg shields already being stripped through redirected leads to more hull ps that can be attacked by another ship successfully that might not have as much firepower like a frontal attack from a neb b later or even just other red dice from ships at distance.

I find both equally good and really a matter of preference that day.

Ok, so I'm only being semi rhetorically with this post, but it have to ask what this sudden concern over the Demo title is about. It's always been a solid gladiator title, an I easily consider it an auto include when running a Glad.

What suddenly changed that makes it need a change.

While haven't gotten deep into the thought process, everything I'm reading from people seems unremarkable in concept, it's just making use strong card combinations and and first player activation advantage.

So if someone can, break it down for this plebeian on to why a card should be changed when it seems more like player skill is making it powerful.

Its not Demolisher that has become the issue.

It was actually the Raider.

It was the Imperials way of getting Quick, Cheap, Dirty Activations that has put Demolisher forward again.

When you had to spend more points on more Gladiators, or heaven forbid, Victory Star Destroyers, the idea of out-activating your enemy and having a bunch of reliability in Ordnance Experts, etc - it was not an issue beforehand.

Ok, so I'm only being semi rhetorically with this post, but it have to ask what this sudden concern over the Demo title is about. It's always been a solid gladiator title, an I easily consider it an auto include when running a Glad.

What suddenly changed that makes it need a change.

While haven't gotten deep into the thought process, everything I'm reading from people seems unremarkable in concept, it's just making use strong card combinations and and first player activation advantage.

So if someone can, break it down for this plebeian on to why a card should be changed when it seems more like player skill is making it powerful.

Don't worry only 5 people want to change it and it is because they are too cheep, or don't want to, buy imperials. They should be complaining out poor rebel squadron synergy if they need something to complain about.

Yeah I'm a fan of the APT's. My buddy APT'd a star destroyer and drew misaligned projector and knocked the front shields down to 0 and was able to wipe it with the mc30 and follow up defiance shot. I know that isn't going to happen alot but I love getting those crits through.

Yeah I'm a fan of the APT's. My buddy APT'd a star destroyer and drew misaligned projector and knocked the front shields down to 0 and was able to wipe it with the mc30 and follow up defiance shot. I know that isn't going to happen alot but I love getting those crits through.

Dodonna.

There's nothing quite like flying in with a Montferrat Demolisher and scoring the crit that stops a ship from firing on obscured targets

Seeing as this thread is still going strong I'm guessing that enough people are still having a problem with Demolisher having activation advantage. Seeing as I believe the actual problem to be primarily in activation advantage rather than the Demolisher title, I'll have a more serious crack at my Comms Jammer idea when I get onto real computer

Malle - what decision was used on WHEN to use brace? I think that the subtler conclusion is that Demolisher is more efficient, damage wise, than the other non-screed upgrades too (at the 90%ile).

Also, since you already have it setup - what's the difference between EXL and ACM? (I expect about a damage less)

Good catch. Brace was used on the first attack when available. I might change it to optimal defensive use (reduce the attack with the most damage) or set a threshold. I'm just not sure what that threshold should be, as it would likely vary from ship to ship.

Here's APT and ACM included:

Wow...

Sanity checks:

ACM does 2 additional, non-braceable damage. With the rate of crits with this setup, that's almost a guaranteed 6 extra damage over no upgrade.The graphs seem to agree with that.

Edit: Fixed mislabeled point cost difference for ACM

Edit #2: Here's a quite messy chart, comparing an "ACM Clonisher" running Screed and one running Vader.

That's 60% for 21 damage, enough to kill a non-motti ISD from the front.

Oh, I realize now why I thought ACM would be a damage less - I was only comparing it versus 4 dice (which, with an intelligent reroll is ~5-6 damage). I forgot about the extra side attack, and now see where the extra damage is from!

Very nice work on the graphs. I did some dice stat work that has sat dormant for almost 2 years for x-wing (xwingdice.com): I specifically stayed away from sims since if I spent the time on it I wanted to do something exact.

I've been on the fence for vader for a while now, and while he does have the higher estimated damage in this case (by 0.1/attack) - the extra dozen points makes him really not worth it for black dice.

I actually think that Demolisher might be a bit underpowered.

Maybe if it allowed you to make any number of attacks after you moved, or bumped the Gladiators speed and maneuverability in addition to its printed effects, that might make it a bit more balanced.

I actually think that Demolisher might be a bit underpowered.

Maybe if it allowed you to make any number of attacks after you moved, or bumped the Gladiators speed and maneuverability in addition to its printed effects, that might make it a bit more balanced.

I think you're on to something.

Other excellent ideas to improve title balance:

• Home One now gives "Mega-Accuracies," which require your opponents to discard all defensive upgrades when allocated in a shooting attack. It can also give them to itself.
• Dominator functions at close-long range, subtracts 2 shields from all opposing ships within close-long range, and gives you that many blue dice.
• Corruptor allows you to move and attack twice will all activated Bombers, while retaining the speed boost.
• Admonition allows you to regain one discarded defense token to cancel all attack dice, in addition to its current effects.
• Paragaon rolls one black die against itself when attacking a ship you've already attacked this round.

Yeah I'm a fan of the APT's. My buddy APT'd a star destroyer and drew misaligned projector and knocked the front shields down to 0 and was able to wipe it with the mc30 and follow up defiance shot. I know that isn't going to happen alot but I love getting those crits through.

Dodonna.

I'm starting to think FFG must give you a kickback every time someone fields a Dodonna list. . .

Demolisher is fine as is at its current points because of one thing: Its a title!

Only one ship will EVER have this ability. One. you cannot get multiples, you cannot apply it to other bigger, meaner ships. As more waves come out, recenty bias will set in, and you will be left with the difficult choice of taking something new and shiny, or sticking with the ol' Demo, something that opponents have played and played against and know how to counter, verses something new and unknown and potentially more potent (ha! alliteration for the win)

And nothing in the clonisher or other Demo builds does anything to improve its survivability, it WILL die, almost every game. And the more you light it up like a christmas tree, the more that will hurt.

Demolisher is fine as is at its current points because of one thing: Its a title!

Only one ship will EVER have this ability. One. you cannot get multiples, you cannot apply it to other bigger, meaner ships. As more waves come out, recenty bias will set in, and you will be left with the difficult choice of taking something new and shiny, or sticking with the ol' Demo, something that opponents have played and played against and know how to counter, verses something new and unknown and potentially more potent (ha! alliteration for the win)

And nothing in the clonisher or other Demo builds does anything to improve its survivability, it WILL die, almost every game. And the more you light it up like a christmas tree, the more that will hurt.

People say it'll die like every game.

But Clon repeatedly didn't die. I think he lost it, what? Once? Maybe twice?

Offense is the best defense.

Yeah I'm a fan of the APT's. My buddy APT'd a star destroyer and drew misaligned projector and knocked the front shields down to 0 and was able to wipe it with the mc30 and follow up defiance shot. I know that isn't going to happen alot but I love getting those crits through.

Dodonna.

I'm starting to think FFG must give you a kickback every time someone fields a Dodonna list. . .

Demolisher is fine as is at its current points because of one thing: Its a title!

Only one ship will EVER have this ability. One. you cannot get multiples, you cannot apply it to other bigger, meaner ships. As more waves come out, recenty bias will set in, and you will be left with the difficult choice of taking something new and shiny, or sticking with the ol' Demo, something that opponents have played and played against and know how to counter, verses something new and unknown and potentially more potent (ha! alliteration for the win)

And nothing in the clonisher or other Demo builds does anything to improve its survivability, it WILL die, almost every game. And the more you light it up like a christmas tree, the more that will hurt.

People say it'll die like every game.

But Clon repeatedly didn't die. I think he lost it, what? Once? Maybe twice?

Offense is the best defense.