To be fair, I think that more of the issue lies in initiative advantage rather than with Demolisher. Demolisher (without initiative advantage) allows for a single attack to be made before the target can react, whilst initiative advantage itself allows for 2 such attacks. This is why my example targeted initiative advantage rather than Demolisher itself.

Whilst the combo which brings this to light is Demolisher with initiative advantage (for a total of 3 attacks), I do wonder if people are focusing on the wrong issue by trying to counter 1 of the attacks rather than 2.

@Lyraeus: Because it's easily the best title in the game, and essentially an auto-include on a Gladiator despite being 10 points? What other ten (or even 8) point title is an auto-include, regardless of the rest of your list?

What is the 'counter' to improved flexibility and threat-range?

I have killed many a Demolisher this way.

As for its points, to be truly dangerous you have to lack flexibility in your plans and how to deal with it.

Honestly, my counter to the Clonisher list is just my Dodonna the Oppressor list without Foresight. Comes in a 386.

If you really want to fix it, the fix is simple for the FAQ/errata document:

• The first player may not activate a ship which activated last in the previous turn first in the current turn, unless it is the only ship available for a player to activate.

Boom.

Demolisher works well for one close-range ship as well as Home One works for the entire rebel fleets' long ranged attacks. Or Ackbar.

I mean can you make the case that Demolisher is more powerful than Ackbar's benefit for the entire rebel fleet?

While I feel the Demolisher was a dangerous slip, I don't feel it requires meddling.

Whenever a game company introduces units/upgrades that ignore the Core Mechanic I get weary...becuase they tend to continue down that path and once that happens, ruination follows.

Id rather FFG leave well enough alone and not try to add something to the Rebel side for 'Balance'.

So far every upgrade in some way changes the way rules work.

XI7 Turbolasers, Gunnery Teams, etc.

The core rules you need are attack move. Messing with those is a pretty huge change to the core mechanic

If you really want to fix it, the fix is simple for the FAQ/errata document:

• The first player may not activate a ship which activated last in the previous turn first in the current turn, unless it is the only ship available for a player to activate.

Boom.

Two ship conga lines would be highly amusing.

The core rules you need are attack move. Messing with those is a pretty huge change to the core mechanic

Mothma changes the core rules about Evade Tokens. Ozzel changes the core mechanics around Navigation commands. Raymus Antilles changes the core mechanics about spending command dials to get command tokens. Etc., etc. Just because you don't like this change to the core mechanics doesn't mean that core mechanic changes are bad.

While I feel the Demolisher was a dangerous slip, I don't feel it requires meddling.

Whenever a game company introduces units/upgrades that ignore the Core Mechanic I get weary...becuase they tend to continue down that path and once that happens, ruination follows.

Id rather FFG leave well enough alone and not try to add something to the Rebel side for 'Balance'.

So far every upgrade in some way changes the way rules work.

XI7 Turbolasers, Gunnery Teams, etc.

Nice observation. Thanks for sharing.

Oh, were you countering what I said? In that case, allow me to retort...

Before discounting, retorting, and/or generally naysaying anyones input on the forums I recommend you read, reread, and digest what a poster wrote. My comment was about the Core Mechanic.

Catch up.

The core rules you need are attack move. Messing with those is a pretty huge change to the core mechanic

Mothma changes the core rules about Evade Tokens. Ozzel changes the core mechanics around Navigation commands. Raymus Antilles changes the core mechanics about spending command dials to get command tokens. Etc., etc. Just because you don't like this change to the core mechanics doesn't mean that core mechanic changes are bad.

..... None of those are core rules.

Reveal Dial, Attacks, Move, next ship...

Mothma changes the effect of defense tokens and not their use or timing. Ozzel changes the effect of Nav commands and not their use or timing. Raymus adds an effect with dials, not their use or timing.

To address the points that've been raised:

Demolisher's real problem is activation advantage/double-tap: I will accept this as soon as someone else demonstrates a ship which can destroy Large ships between activations (move last, shoot first) in the same fashion that a Clonisher can. If you can demonstrate this, I will withdraw all of my objections. However, the math doesn't quite line up.

Demolisher Move/Shoot+Double Arc: 4 Black/2Red + 4Black/2Red + 4 Black.

Totals

12 Black (Ordinance Team; Screed Manipulation)

4 Red

Rapid Reload, Ackbar MC30 Double-Side: 2Blue/2Red/4Black + 2Blue/2Blue/4Black

Totals

8 Blacks (Ordinance Teams Only)

4 Blue

4 Red

In addition to having worse raw damage, the MC30 cost more and be will be much harder to execute - the double-side-arc is extremely fiddly, you can't move after your first shot. It'll be more vulnerable to Braces because it's only delivering 2 shots, rather than 3.

To address the points that've been raised:

Demolisher's real problem is activation advantage/double-tap: I will accept this as soon as someone else demonstrates a ship which can destroy Large ships between activations (move last, shoot first) in the same fashion that a Clonisher can. If you can demonstrate this, I will withdraw all of my objections. However, the math doesn't quite line up.

Demolisher Move/Shoot+Double Arc: 4 Black/2Red + 4Black/2Red + 4 Black.

Totals

12 Black (Ordinance Team; Screed Manipulation)

4 Red

Rapid Reload, Ackbar MC30 Double-Side: 2Blue/2Red/4Black + 2Blue/2Blue/4Black

Totals

8 Blacks (Ordinance Teams Only)

4 Blue

4 Red

In addition to having worse raw damage, the MC30 cost more and be will be much harder to execute - the double-side-arc is extremely fiddly, you can't move after your first shot. It'll be more vulnerable to Braces because it's only delivering 2 shots, rather than 3.

Except with that many blue dice, braces are not an issue, due to accuracy, or even Home One guaranteeing an accuracy.

An Imperial II can get front arc (last activation) then go first and double tap quite easily. And the best thing is taking Avenger and OLP for that double tap, so end of round you eat 4/8 dice, then you get a side arc of 4 dice, one of which exhausts all your Def tokens, then you get to eat the front arc again, except you have no tokens do anything with.

Imperial II

Darth Vader

Captain Needa

Overload Pulse

Turbolaser Reroute Circuits

Avenger

( 4 red+ 4 blue, then 2 red+3 blue, then 4 red, 4 blue no def tokens.)

Victory I

Intel Officer

Ordnance Experts

H9 Turbolasers

Expanded Launchers

Dominator

(So last activation 3 red+2 blue+6 black, then first activation, 3 red+2 blue+6 black, + 2 red, 1 black, 2 blue, for a grand total of 8 red, 13 black, 6 blue.) with 3 accuracys and 2 intel officer uses.

And I am sure there are many other crazy builds out there that just need, one end + one start of round activation sequence to destroy anything before it can react.

While I feel the Demolisher was a dangerous slip, I don't feel it requires meddling.

Whenever a game company introduces units/upgrades that ignore the Core Mechanic I get weary...becuase they tend to continue down that path and once that happens, ruination follows.

Id rather FFG leave well enough alone and not try to add something to the Rebel side for 'Balance'.

So far every upgrade in some way changes the way rules work.

XI7 Turbolasers, Gunnery Teams, etc.

.

Nice observation. Thanks for sharing.

Oh, were you countering what I said? In that case, allow me to retort...

Before discounting, retorting, and/or generally naysaying anyones input on the forums I recommend you read, reread, and digest what a poster wrote. My comment was about the Core Mechanic.

Catch up.

It may not be huge on the surface but it would change how game play is conducted.

I was not naysayers you I was pointing out that there are far more abilities than Demolisher that adjust the rules.

To address the points that've been raised:

Demolisher's real problem is activation advantage/double-tap: I will accept this as soon as someone else demonstrates a ship which can destroy Large ships between activations (move last, shoot first) in the same fashion that a Clonisher can. If you can demonstrate this, I will withdraw all of my objections.

My MC30 has thrown out from its front arc 6 damage to a side arc with XI7's and Assault Proton Torpedoes Intel Officer the brace and if they don't use it then shoot my side arc which has been a other 9 damage on 6 dice and aggressive rerolls. That is 17 damage and they can only redirect 1 point per attack. Only a Motti ISD can actually survive that. Oh and that is just activating at the start of the turn.

Mind you if they braced it would be less but I have still killed ships with it.

The core rules you need are attack move. Messing with those is a pretty huge change to the core mechanic

As was stated earlier, anything covered in the Learn to Play guide (as bad as it is), is part of the core rules. So defense is apart of that, your attacks, etc.

A core rule is one that if you changed it, it would change the entire game. If you gave every ship Gunnery Teams this would be a different game because points would be adjusted, upgrades would behave a bit differently, etc.

I second making the game less fun through making everything bland less time more threads about wave III which got cancelled because people decided the game was dull. If the only way nerf the discussion on the SSD and wave three is to nerf the game into rarely being played, I all for it. Down with the ship. Sink us all and let the rats swim for shore.

Like everything it has a counter. Just need to ask the experts.mThe world is not falling. All is well. The game is good. House rule if you want. Ceste la vie

Except with that many blue dice, braces are not an issue, due to accuracy, or even Home One guaranteeing an accuracy.

An Imperial II can get front arc (last activation) then go first and double tap quite easily. And the best thing is taking Avenger and OLP for that double tap, so end of round you eat 4/8 dice, then you get a side arc of 4 dice, one of which exhausts all your Def tokens, then you get to eat the front arc again, except you have no tokens do anything with.

Imperial II

Darth Vader

Captain Needa

Overload Pulse

Turbolaser Reroute Circuits

Avenger

( 4 red+ 4 blue, then 2 red+3 blue, then 4 red, 4 blue no def tokens.)

Victory I

Intel Officer

Ordnance Experts

H9 Turbolasers

Expanded Launchers

Dominator

(So last activation 3 red+2 blue+6 black, then first activation, 3 red+2 blue+6 black, + 2 red, 1 black, 2 blue, for a grand total of 8 red, 13 black, 6 blue.) with 3 accuracys and 2 intel officer uses.

And I am sure there are many other crazy builds out there that just need, one end + one start of round activation sequence to destroy anything before it can react.

ECM beats accuracy - need Intel officer and high damage to remove the Brace.

Using much slower, much larger, much more expensive ships to compare to the demolisher is unfair.

How are you going to get activation advantage with the ISD2? An ISD 2 + 5 naked Raiders?

How are you going to get in range for your double-tap with your VSD 1 on a speed 2 ship that can't take Engine Techs?

Could I have a diagram and/or written explanation of either approach?

MC30 can do it. Have done it. Tricky positioning but possible.

My MC30 has thrown out from its front arc 6 damage to a side arc with XI7's and Assault Proton Torpedoes Intel Officer the brace and if they don't use it then shoot my side arc which has been a other 9 damage on 6 dice and aggressive rerolls. That is 17 damage and they can only redirect 1 point per attack. Only a Motti ISD can actually survive that. Oh and that is just activating at the start of the turn.

Mind you if they braced it would be less but I have still killed ships with it.

Non-Motti ISD 2 with ECMs:

Shot 1: incoming six to side.

If Brace is threatened: accept damage, redirect 1. 3 to shields; 1 to frontal shields, 2 to hull, 1 APT crit.

Total damage on hull: 2 hits, 1 crit.

If brace not threatened: braced, redirected 1.

Total damage on hull: 1 crit. 1 side shield remaining up (2 taken on side, 1 redirected to front).

Shot 2: incoming 9 damage to side

If brace was not threatened last attack: Braced down to 5, even if Intel threatens brace now (brace already exhausted from previous attack.)

1 on side shields, 1 damage on frontal shields.

3 damage taken on hull. 1 APT crit taken on hull.

Final damage taken if Intel is not used to threaten brace initially: 2 Crits, 3 hull damage.

If brace was threatened on attack 1: Braced down to 5, 1 redirects to front.

4 damage and 1 APT crit taken on hull.

Final damage taken if Intel is not used to threaten brace initially: 2 Crits, 6 hull damage.

If brace was threatened initially - 1-3 hull remaining (if structural damage is pulled for the crits)

If brace wasn't threatened initially - 4-6 hull remaining (if structural damage is pulled for the crits)

---

This does not seem comparable to the Demolisher's 9 damage/9 damage/6 damage combo, where it's allowed to intel-threaten the brace twice in a row because of the turn interval between shots 1 and 2.

Except with that many blue dice, braces are not an issue, due to accuracy, or even Home One guaranteeing an accuracy.

An Imperial II can get front arc (last activation) then go first and double tap quite easily. And the best thing is taking Avenger and OLP for that double tap, so end of round you eat 4/8 dice, then you get a side arc of 4 dice, one of which exhausts all your Def tokens, then you get to eat the front arc again, except you have no tokens do anything with.

Imperial II

Darth Vader

Captain Needa

Overload Pulse

Turbolaser Reroute Circuits

Avenger

( 4 red+ 4 blue, then 2 red+3 blue, then 4 red, 4 blue no def tokens.)

Victory I

Intel Officer

Ordnance Experts

H9 Turbolasers

Expanded Launchers

Dominator

(So last activation 3 red+2 blue+6 black, then first activation, 3 red+2 blue+6 black, + 2 red, 1 black, 2 blue, for a grand total of 8 red, 13 black, 6 blue.) with 3 accuracys and 2 intel officer uses.

And I am sure there are many other crazy builds out there that just need, one end + one start of round activation sequence to destroy anything before it can react.

ECM beats accuracy - need Intel officer and high damage to remove the Brace.

Using much slower, much larger, much more expensive ships to compare to the demolisher is unfair.

How are you going to get activation advantage with the ISD2? An ISD 2 + 5 naked Raiders?

How are you going to get in range for your double-tap with your VSD 1 on a speed 2 ship that can't take Engine Techs?

Could I have a diagram and/or written explanation of either approach?

MC30 can do it. Have done it. Tricky positioning but possible.

My MC30 has thrown out from its front arc 6 damage to a side arc with XI7's and Assault Proton Torpedoes Intel Officer the brace and if they don't use it then shoot my side arc which has been a other 9 damage on 6 dice and aggressive rerolls. That is 17 damage and they can only redirect 1 point per attack. Only a Motti ISD can actually survive that. Oh and that is just activating at the start of the turn.

Mind you if they braced it would be less but I have still killed ships with it.

Non-Motti ISD 2 with ECMs:

Shot 1: incoming six to side.

If Brace is threatened: accept damage, redirect 1. 3 to shields; 1 to frontal shields, 2 to hull, 1 APT crit.

Total damage on hull: 2 hits, 1 crit.

If brace not threatened: braced, redirected 1.

Total damage on hull: 1 crit. 1 side shield remaining up (2 taken on side, 1 redirected to front).

Shot 2: incoming 9 damage to side

If brace was not threatened last attack: Braced down to 5, even if Intel threatens brace now (brace already exhausted from previous attack.)

1 on side shields, 1 damage on frontal shields.

3 damage taken on hull. 1 APT crit taken on hull.

Final damage taken if Intel is not used to threaten brace initially: 2 Crits, 3 hull damage.

If brace was threatened on attack 1: Braced down to 5, 1 redirects to front.

4 damage and 1 APT crit taken on hull.

Final damage taken if Intel is not used to threaten brace initially: 2 Crits, 6 hull damage.

If brace was threatened initially - 1-3 hull remaining (if structural damage is pulled for the crits)

If brace wasn't threatened initially - 4-6 hull remaining (if structural damage is pulled for the crits)

---

This does not seem comparable to the Demolisher's 9 damage/9 damage/6 damage combo, where it's allowed to intel-threaten the brace twice in a row because of the turn interval between shots 1 and 2.

The crits from APT's can mess with a ships day and do just about every time. Getting a crit that states you. Can't spend exhausted defense tokens after using that brace.

Yes, it does not compare with Demolisher but that is a standard Imperial trait. If I wanted I could put expanded launchers on a MC30 with XI7's and roll 10 dice in 2 attacks. It is expensive but with the ease of activation control it is easy to do

I mean in all honesty, it is easy as hell to take out Demolisher.

+++ The all powerful MC30 (385pts) +++

+ CR90 Corvette (285pts) +

TRC90 - CR90 Corvette A (81pts) [Turbolaser Reroute Circuits, •Mon Mothma]

TRC90 - CR90 Corvette A (51pts) [Turbolaser Reroute Circuits]

TRC90 - CR90 Corvette A (51pts) [Turbolaser Reroute Circuits]

TRC90 - CR90 Corvette A (51pts) [Turbolaser Reroute Circuits]

TRC90 - CR90 Corvette A (51pts) [Turbolaser Reroute Circuits]

TRC30 - MC30c Scout Frigate (100pts) [Expanded Launchers, Ordnance Experts, XI7 Turbolasers, •Admonition]

How simplistic is this list. You will always go first and your Scout Frigate is rolling 10 dice when you double arc. Which is easy. You could even drop it to a Torpedo Frigate and add in Intel Officer for kicks

I feel that there are other titles that need rebalance before demolisher like Dominator.

Instead of the following Eastern King:

Imperial II

Darth Vader

Captain Needa

Overload Pulse

Turbolaser Reroute Circuits

Avenger

( 4 red+ 4 blue, then 2 red+3 blue, then 4 red, 4 blue no def tokens.)

Victory I

Intel Officer

Ordnance Experts

H9 Turbolasers

Expanded Launchers

Dominator

--------May I suggest the Following instead:

Imperial II 168p

Motte

ECM

X-17

Intel officer

Leading Shots

Victory I 89

Ordnance Experts

Tractor Beam

X-17

Glad I 98p

Demolisher

Expanded Launchers

ET

OE

Intel officer

4x Intercepters 44p

399

I feel that there are other titles that need rebalance before demolisher like Dominator.

I agree that Dominator should be better.

In this evil time, much trolls are to be had.

I think we have different definitions of core mechanics. Anything in the Learn to Play book is, in my opinion, a core mechanic, where you take a much more barebones definition.

Would you agree, then, that several officers change core mechanics? Ordinarily you reveal your dial and resolve that command/take a token. Wing Commander, Navigation Officer, Tactical Expert and Engineering Captain all allow you to change your dial before revealing it, which alters a core mechanic. Defense and Weapon Liaisons allow you to do so as well, after spending a token. Leia lets you change a dial. A core mechanic of the game is that, once your dial is set, you cannot alter it. But there are five upgrades that all allow you to ignore a core part of the rules.

By your definition Objectives and Initative are changes to the core mechanics as they disagree with the learn to play book. In reality they are fundamental to the game.

No I dont agree with your logic. Nothing is broken by the predictable changing of command dials at opportune moments. The dial is still used at the start of the turn, and only has a choice of four options. Whats actually changed? The player has been given the flexibility to alter their mistakes with hindsight. An upgrade has been bought which proportionally to cost gives them an advantage. That is the very definition of balanced and "non-game breaking".

I think we have different definitions of core mechanics. Anything in the Learn to Play book is, in my opinion, a core mechanic, where you take a much more barebones definition.

Would you agree, then, that several officers change core mechanics? Ordinarily you reveal your dial and resolve that command/take a token. Wing Commander, Navigation Officer, Tactical Expert and Engineering Captain all allow you to change your dial before revealing it, which alters a core mechanic. Defense and Weapon Liaisons allow you to do so as well, after spending a token. Leia lets you change a dial. A core mechanic of the game is that, once your dial is set, you cannot alter it. But there are five upgrades that all allow you to ignore a core part of the rules.

By your definition Objectives and Initative are changes to the core mechanics as they disagree with the learn to play book. In reality they are fundamental to the game.

You mean the things covered in the rear of the Learn to Play Guide? Huh, guess they are core things.