If you don't like Demolisher threads, keep moving. I understand that there's been a lot of discussion about the title, but there's plenty of other content if you want to talk about Armada.

I'm not going to bring up a bunch of titles. People know what Demolisher does. People know what other titles do.

Inspired by Corran Horn, I came up with:

Demolisher (x points): This ship may fire once, out of one arc, after moving. If you fire after moving, you may only attack once next turn.

To underline just how good Demolisher is now, I think that this title would still be worth 3-5 points, due to the tactical flexibility that it'd offer.

Any other ideas? Do you think that Demolisher is fine, as-is?

Why should Demolisher change?

Sure it is a great title but once you know the counter it is easy to understand

I think it's fine. It's dangerous but by no means invincible.

If you really want to hit it with the nerf bat, make the after-move shot unable to shoot at anything you've already shot. That way it can't get a free "double arc" like it currently can every turn.

I think it's fine. It's dangerous but by no means invincible.

If you really want to hit it with the nerf bat, make the after-move shot unable to shoot at anything you've already shot. That way it can't get a free "double arc" like it currently can every turn.

What if you have Demolisher and I only have 1 ship left. You can only attack me once but I can attack you twice every turn.

@Lyraeus: Because it's easily the best title in the game, and essentially an auto-include on a Gladiator despite being 10 points? What other ten (or even 8) point title is an auto-include, regardless of the rest of your list?

What is the 'counter' to improved flexibility and threat-range?

@grandmoffjoe:

That's an interesting idea. It's definitely less extreme of a change than I proposed.

I think it's fine. It's dangerous but by no means invincible.

If you really want to hit it with the nerf bat, make the after-move shot unable to shoot at anything you've already shot. That way it can't get a free "double arc" like it currently can every turn.

Eh, that makes no difference to its current "Triple Tap" usage.

What other ten (or even 8) point title is an auto-include, regardless of the rest of your list?

For my money, Relentless on an ISD is a must-buy.

Demolisher (x points): This ship may fire once, out of one arc, after moving. If you fire after moving, you may only attack once next turn.

I'd prefer to modify this idea: "If you have not already fired at a ship this turn, you may make one attack after moving." (you want that sweet double-tap *next* turn, but don't necessarily need it *this* turn)

But otherwise, I'm in the "Demolisher is just fine and I love it" camp.

So it's a great title, no one will disagree.

I don't think it's overpowered. Maybe if we looked at it in a vacuum, sure, but we can't do that.

So the GSD isn't a hardy ship at all - compare it to the MC30 which has more shields, and one less hull. Yes, the MC30 is more expensive, but by the time you add Demolisher, and Engine Techs, and an ordinance, and an officer, and a weapons team you have a very punishing ship that is very versatile - but pretty fragile for its high cost.

So it's a great title, no one will disagree.

I don't think it's overpowered. Maybe if we looked at it in a vacuum, sure, but we can't do that.

So the GSD isn't a hardy ship at all - compare it to the MC30 which has more shields, and one less hull. Yes, the MC30 is more expensive, but by the time you add Demolisher, and Engine Techs, and an ordinance, and an officer, and a weapons team you have a very punishing ship that is very versatile - but pretty fragile for its high cost.

Ah, but you omit that the MC30 will likely cost more and offer less of a threat. And, fully upgraded, said MC30 will also cost more. Lyraeus's Dodonna list involves upgraded MC30s, which end up at 100 points (2 more than the Clonisher). Unlike Clon, we're not hearing about how he blows up ISDs left and right. I'm sure that he does, now and again, but it isn't a pay-per-view on demand service of the same fashion.

If the MC30 had the Demolisher title, I'd be discussing it, too! Instead, they have titles that mitigate the MC30's weakness (fragility) in interesting ways, instead of honing it into a hyper-efficient, hyper-focused superweapon.

Given that we already know from X-Wing that FFG does not errata cards in such a drastic matter. Instead, if a card needs needing, they will most likely do so by releasing a new card to counter it.

As an example:

Comms Jammer

When an opponent attempts to activate a ship within short range, you may exhaust this card to force him to activate a different ship instead.

The above would defend against Demolisher as it would allow you to activate a ship before Demolisher gets shots 2+3 off. (This upgrade may well be overpowered in other ways though. I was just throwing it out as an example.)

Its not demolisher that is the issue. Demolisher only adds one volley after moving, which most (corvettes and raiders excluded) ships can absorb. If you have a decent unactivated ship to respond after his attack run you can squash him.

The thing that makes it lethal is first turn and activation superiority.

Having said that, any MC30 or Gladiator with first turn and activation superiority can be almost as lethal. That's what you guys need to find a counter for.

Ah, but you omit that the MC30 will likely cost more and offer less of a threat. And, fully upgraded, said MC30 will also cost more. Lyraeus's Dodonna list involves upgraded MC30s, which end up at 100 points (2 more than the Clonisher). Unlike Clon, we're not hearing about how he blows up ISDs left and right. I'm sure that he does, now and again, but it isn't a pay-per-view on demand service of the same fashion.

If the MC30 had the Demolisher title, I'd be discussing it, too! Instead, they have titles that mitigate the MC30's weakness (fragility) in interesting ways, instead of honing it into a hyper-efficient, hyper-focused superweapon.

I explicitly said that MC30s have a higher base cost.

So I omitted the fact that you think MC30s are less of a threat than a Demolisher? Probably because I don't agree with that at all.

In my experience, Demolishers tend to end up costing a pretty similar amount to MC30s. Depending on build, MC30s can be very solid long range ships (Ackbar, TRC, XI7, etc) or they can be brutal close/medium range brawlers (Ackbar/Dodanna/Mon Mothma/Rieekan, APT, Ordnance Experts, ACM, XI7, etc).

Depending on your build Gladiators can be good... Close range brawlers. That's pretty much it. Their damage potential can be great - but they can only function at close range, where they lose ⅓ of their defense tokens. They're good, but have to be played carefully.

Demolisher is a great title, but it's very expensive on a 56 point ship. And you keep adding stuff, and that makes it very powerful - but when you run a 90 point ship that has the survivability of a 56 point ship one wrong move can mean you just flushed your investment.

Yes, MC30s can be more expensive, but for those costs they get significant improvements in both their offense and defense - neither of which are negligible in the first place.

Of course Demolisher would be even more insane on an MC30 - but that's true for every bigger ship. How crazy would it be to have a Demolisher ISD? Even more so, exactly.

Gladiators, more than any other ship (except the Raider, sometimes), rely on black dice exclusively (I'm ignoring their red dice values, because those dice aren't enough alone to be considerable) I think that it's that black dice reliance, and frailty that make Demolisher an acceptable title - when you also consider its cost.

How about they give Demolisher poor manouverability at top speed, a lack of redundant defence tokens and low shields and small hull.......

I'm in the group that doesn't think it needs a nerf. There are cases where it can be super effective, but it's not the end all. Even if you're at a disadvantage vs it, it most definitely is not the end all be all.

It has to roll those dice no matter what.

For those arguing Gladiator/Demolisher has the same/worse defense than an MC30, let me tell you why you are wrong.

Ok the Gladiator loses 1/3 of its defense tokens at close range - the MC30 loses 1/2.

MC30 can effectively lose all of its tokens at close range if opponent has XI7's which I see on almost every Imp star/Vic/MC80/Whale I play against in my area (Other local metas not withstanding) - True this also affects the Gladiator but you have 1 more hull to play with, the Gladiator also has a brace - this is the key as to why it can withstand attacks for so long.

I am in the boat that Glad's them selves are slightly under costed, not the Demolisher title. (Or MC30 overpriced)

The only solid way to stop a Demolisher list is to underbid it, which is why I run at 389 points or less in my local meta now, most only bid as low as 396 some 394. It is also why my list contains Luke, Keyan, Yavaris and Adar Talon on another ship. With good rolls I can most likely kill Demolisher in one activation from Yavaris if I activate, Luke, Keyan and another B-wing. (banked Squad token)

Arent MC30's always run with Mothma? They dont lose anything at close range.

I'm more scared of a Mothma Foresight than Demolisher. At least demolisher can reliably be killed.

And MC30's can take Admonition, Foresight, Lando and Walex which Demolisher cant....

I think demolisher is fine as is...

An upgrade I thought that would be feasible would be a card similar to Needa that adds a redundant Brace. That would make the Intel officer glad triple tap just a little easier to deal with in the medium to large ships.

I also think it is fine, sure it can hand it out, but it sure doesn't like taking it, I had 3 games yesterday, and it died every time, giving my opponent(s) 85pts each game.

Tournament yesterday, I have player one, 5 ships vrs 2 ships, I picked his Advanced Gunnery, and on turn 3 set up a double tap with my ISD II onto his ISD II, front arc into his front, then front into his side, he sure didnt like getting 17 dice at close range from that double tap.

As Ophion said already, it is activation and double tap that is the issue here, not a ship title.

If you really want to fix it, the fix is simple for the FAQ/errata document:

• The first player may not activate a ship which activated last in the previous turn first in the current turn, unless it is the only ship available for a player to activate.

Boom.

If you really want to fix it, the fix is simple for the FAQ/errata document:

• The first player may not activate a ship which activated last in the previous turn first in the current turn, unless it is the only ship available for a player to activate.

Boom.

To add more depth. I'm an exclusive rebel player. I deal with demolisher a lot. It's probably an auto include on a glad unless you're doing something weird (ghetto carrier, my friend's infinite shield list). It's a good title but I don't stress about it like I used to.

Also there are other auto inclides. Foresight and admonition in that order. Add Lando to foresight? I turned an 8 damage attack in to a 0 damage attack and I think my opponent wanted to shank me.

If you really want to fix it, the fix is simple for the FAQ/errata document:

• The first player may not activate a ship which activated last in the previous turn first in the current turn, unless it is the only ship available for a player to activate.

Boom.

Ew. Gross. You just took away the incentive to bid for first/run multiple ship lists.

I would agree, plus it creates a new bureaucracy of keeping track of which ships activated last. Not an absolutely awful burden, mind you, but an additional one nonetheless.

I don't think Demolisher is broken. It's extremely good but Imperials have so many black dice ships it's nice to know one of them can get work done for you reliably. It only gets super good when it can activate last then first but we've had this conversation now many times and there are ways to beat that.

While I feel the Demolisher was a dangerous slip, I don't feel it requires meddling.

Whenever a game company introduces units/upgrades that ignore the Core Mechanic I get weary...becuase they tend to continue down that path and once that happens, ruination follows.

Id rather FFG leave well enough alone and not try to add something to the Rebel side for 'Balance'.

My mc80 (with ackbar and CF) one-shotted Demolisher that got a bit too close and couldn't escape home one's large side arcs.. 2x accuracy + 7 damage to the side = very dead demolisher