He's always been a cheerleader for plastic ships, for Star Wars, for Epic casual play, for his own way of playing the game. Never for the normal game, the one he's now calling a CCG.

Reducing X-wing to CCG is petty. But then again, this entire thread is an invitation to pettiness.

Do you bite your thumb at me, sir?!

You invited a direct comparison between games. I think you shouldn't directly compare them, since they are very different games. Mechanics have no direct correspondents and the skills required to play it are very different. It should come down to personal preference, what mechanic someone likes or dislikes.

But this thread hasn't been that, it's been more of a "X-wing is so bad because the list building is at 100pts, the 400pts model is a clear superior model, X-wing is very bad because there are only two colors of dice and 3 is better." And now the already thin discussion has devolved into "X-wing is basically a CCG. Armada rocks." Is this the kind of community you guys want to have around this game?

I get it that it's a new game and you're trying to get out of X-wing's shadow, but that is not the way to do it. X-wing has fixed plenty of mistakes. Armada currently has to work with its initial design flaws. Instead of trash-talking X-wing you should be talking about what's wrong in Armada, maybe the developers will catch wind of it and try to fix in later waves (following that nasty CCG model).

Hehe, my wife and I have been watching Cheers (from season 1) on Netflix.

Nice! I am Norm kinda...

Say Brah... keep your YouTube going too. I like your videos plenty, and so do many other true blue Wingers out here!

Thanks!

But... I don't have a YouTube channel. You may be thinking about my nemesis, Lyraeus. I just have a blog.

X Wing is really starting to get bloated now. I was looking at one ship build the other day, I think it was an X Wing, and it struck me that to run that particular ship build you needed half a dozen cards on the table, all from different expansion packs. That one ship was something like $100. It might have been a Y wing actually. I think it was guidance chips, BTL-A4, TLT, targeting astro and some ordnance or other with extra munitions. That's the Y Wing, Scum and Villainy, T-70, K Wing, and something from wave 8 with guidance chips.

And that's not getting into the 'standard' builds for things like Interceptors or TIE Advanced that require the purchase of cross-faction and Epic ships.

X Wing is getting out of control.

X Wing is really starting to get bloated now. I was looking at one ship build the other day, I think it was an X Wing, and it struck me that to run that particular ship build you needed half a dozen cards on the table, all from different expansion packs. That one ship was something like $100. It might have been a Y wing actually. I think it was guidance chips, BTL-A4, TLT, targeting astro and some ordnance or other with extra munitions. That's the Y Wing, Scum and Villainy, T-70, K Wing, and something from wave 8 with guidance chips.

And that's not getting into the 'standard' builds for things like Interceptors or TIE Advanced that require the purchase of cross-faction and Epic ships.

X Wing is getting out of control.

You mean similar to how you need to buy a Nebulon B expansion pack for every Xi-7 you want to run? Fun times for Imperial-only players! Or similar to how for a TRC90 swarm you would have to buy as many MC30s as you have CR90s?

This is the sales model. You're either on board with it, or you're not, but don't claim that Armada is any different from X-wing in this respect.

This forum used to be like hanging out at cheers (that funny show about a bar) but now it is more like hanging out at a rough billiard room, next to a rundown package store. Well not that bad but kinda.

Hehe, my wife and I have been watching Cheers (from season 1) on Netflix.

But, forums will be forums.

In terms of keeping up with X-Wing, I've been out of it for a while (same with Armada), because work. I was going to hand out some Imperial justice a few weeks ago at the local Store Championship, but got sick. Then another store championship got sold out before I could put my name up. (With all I do for my local community, I figured I would have been a 'superdelegate', but no dice.)

Anyway, I'm pretty much to the point that I'm waiting for the store championship season to be over so that we can think about some more imaginative styles of play.

X Wing is really starting to get bloated now. I was looking at one ship build the other day, I think it was an X Wing, and it struck me that to run that particular ship build you needed half a dozen cards on the table, all from different expansion packs. That one ship was something like $100. It might have been a Y wing actually. I think it was guidance chips, BTL-A4, TLT, targeting astro and some ordnance or other with extra munitions. That's the Y Wing, Scum and Villainy, T-70, K Wing, and something from wave 8 with guidance chips.

And that's not getting into the 'standard' builds for things like Interceptors or TIE Advanced that require the purchase of cross-faction and Epic ships.

X Wing is getting out of control.

You mean similar to how you need to buy a Nebulon B expansion pack for every Xi-7 you want to run? Fun times for Imperial-only players! Or similar to how for a TRC90 swarm you would have to buy as many MC30s as you have CR90s?

This is the sales model. You're either on board with it, or you're not, but don't claim that Armada is any different from X-wing in this respect.

However, not having TLT's in X-Wing seems like huge handicap

comparing X-wing to a CCG is actually pretty astute. It's 'card pool' (lets face it, the ships do nothing without cards) is filling up and there are ever increasing rules questions and need for FAQs. Something similar happened in Netrunner and what was once an open, living card game has now seen the inclusion of a "banned/limited" card list like Magic. Certain things were simply getting too powerful. X-wing isnt there just yet, but you can already see the early signs of it.

With no announcement of Wave 3 in sight, it seems Armada doesnt have that problem! HAHA......

Started Armada In December and have not played Xwing yet this year.

Not that I dont want to play both but I only have one free gaming night a week for 4 hours or so and given the choice between the two my heart always goes for Armada.

Same with store championships, ive played in 4 Armada Tourneys this year ( won one - Yayyy!) but not a single Xwing store championship yet this year.

If I were single, i would be playing both, but as a married man my gaming time is limited and I really only have time to stay competitive in one game.

comparing X-wing to a CCG is actually pretty astute. It's 'card pool' (lets face it, the ships do nothing without cards) is filling up and there are ever increasing rules questions and need for FAQs. Something similar happened in Netrunner and what was once an open, living card game has now seen the inclusion of a "banned/limited" card list like Magic. Certain things were simply getting too powerful. X-wing isnt there just yet, but you can already see the early signs of it.

With no announcement of Wave 3 in sight, it seems Armada doesnt have that problem! HAHA......

Nobody will dispute that X-wing has cards that you collect. But there's a big leap between that and "X-Wing is a CCG with cute ship tokens now." which conveys that ships and their maneuvers have no bearing on the game, just the cards.

Ships with upgrades from different expansions? You guys are deluding yourselves if you think this is not coming to Armada sooner rather than later. I remember wave 2 of X-wing, I had a handful of cards (with all ships in multiples) and I used even fewer of those. Now at wave 2 of Armada I have a metric ton of cards. All ships have a LOT of upgrade slots. How long before you get to a situation where you need to have a ship with 6 upgrade cards all from different expansions? Some may argue that it's not here yet, but it will surely come.

I'm not against the model, I've bought everything in X-wing and Armada (except the X-wing dice pack), in multiples where I required them. People who frown at X-wing over this should get off their high horse and take a reality check. X-wing and Armada are identical in this respect.

Hehe, my wife and I have been watching Cheers (from season 1) on Netflix.

Nice! I am Norm kinda...

Say Brah... keep your YouTube going too. I like your videos plenty, and so do many other true blue Wingers out here!

Thanks!

But... I don't have a YouTube channel. You may be thinking about my nemesis, Lyraeus. I just have a blog.

I get some of us mixed up once in a while...

NICE Blog!

TLTs are not necessary to be competitive. Otherwise, Imperials would always be losing, since they have no ships with turret upgrade slots.

There are no must-have cards in X-Wing.

As to the tournaments, these were Guardian and PGS respectively. And I was just kidding about my right to 'superdelegate' status.

I think the issue with X-Wing in my area is that it's become 40k. You can't have a casual league or campaign, because it ends up overloaded with power gamers who want to stomp faces instead of having fun, so the casual players just stop showing up.

I'm hoping that Armada's higher cost of entry and greater length of play will keep that from happening. At least in my area 40k tended to have the WAAC players where Fantasy had the more dedicated players out for fun that didn't involve power builds and min/maxing in pickup games. But who knows? Give it another year or two and a few more waves and I'll likely be saying the same thing about Armada.

I think the issue with X-Wing in my area is that it's become 40k. You can't have a casual league or campaign, because it ends up overloaded with power gamers who want to stomp faces instead of having fun, so the casual players just stop showing up.

Maybe I just live in a friendlier town than you do, because I don't recognize that sort of behavior at all in my FFG-games gaming community.

How old (mature) are these WAACers?

Maybe I just live in a friendlier town than you do, because I don't recognize that sort of behavior at all in my FFG-games gaming community.

I can say the same, and that includes the Twin Cities metro area.

I think the issue with X-Wing in my area is that it's become 40k. You can't have a casual league or campaign, because it ends up overloaded with power gamers who want to stomp faces instead of having fun, so the casual players just stop showing up.

I'm hoping that Armada's higher cost of entry and greater length of play will keep that from happening. At least in my area 40k tended to have the WAAC players where Fantasy had the more dedicated players out for fun that didn't involve power builds and min/maxing in pickup games. But who knows? Give it another year or two and a few more waves and I'll likely be saying the same thing about Armada.

EXACTLY what I have been arguing a little about over the last year. Chill hates that I call out this crap but yeah give me FUN Games of STAR WARS X-Wing. This meta/win/viable-ships crap... I... HATE... IT!!!

I never bought into X-Wing because we have a guy that bought it all. He's bought in to Armada as have I and we never speak of X-Wing anymore. I like X-Wing, but I'd rather play Armada with my time.

I think the issue with X-Wing in my area is that it's become 40k. You can't have a casual league or campaign, because it ends up overloaded with power gamers who want to stomp faces instead of having fun, so the casual players just stop showing up.

Maybe I just live in a friendlier town than you do, because I don't recognize that sort of behavior at all in my FFG-games gaming community.

How old (mature) are these WAACers?

Honestly, they vary. Some are around my age (thirties) with a lot in their mid/late twenties. And we have one or two people from out of town that are the type to buy the latest hot 'net list before every tournament. It's not really a younger thing, it just seems to be what the meta has become. And it spilled over into X-Wing. There hasn't been an attempt at an X-Wing league or campaign in probably two years, but there's always a decent showing at a tournament, because the few casual players who would enjoy a league are all playing at home so they don't feel pressured to play against people who only care about winning. So we do have casual players, but you don't see them at our LGS.

I think the issue with X-Wing in my area is that it's become 40k. You can't have a casual league or campaign, because it ends up overloaded with power gamers who want to stomp faces instead of having fun, so the casual players just stop showing up.

I'm hoping that Armada's higher cost of entry and greater length of play will keep that from happening. At least in my area 40k tended to have the WAAC players where Fantasy had the more dedicated players out for fun that didn't involve power builds and min/maxing in pickup games. But who knows? Give it another year or two and a few more waves and I'll likely be saying the same thing about Armada.

EXACTLY what I have been arguing a little about over the last year. Chill hates that I call out this crap but yeah give me FUN Games of STAR WARS X-Wing. This meta/win/viable-ships crap... I... HATE... IT!!!

And it's not really the fault of FFG or the X-Wing rules, it's just what a lot of local metas have become.

don't claim that Armada is any different from X-wing in this respect.

I uh, I didn't?

We have a pretty competitive play scene for both Xwing and Armada here but its still a friendly environment for both games. We all want to win, but I can count on one hand the number of unpleasnt opponents Ive had across both game systems.

The super Waacers around here usually stick to Magic and WarmaHordes.

I think the issue with X-Wing in my area is that it's become 40k. You can't have a casual league or campaign, because it ends up overloaded with power gamers who want to stomp faces instead of having fun, so the casual players just stop showing up.

I'm hoping that Armada's higher cost of entry and greater length of play will keep that from happening. At least in my area 40k tended to have the WAAC players where Fantasy had the more dedicated players out for fun that didn't involve power builds and min/maxing in pickup games. But who knows? Give it another year or two and a few more waves and I'll likely be saying the same thing about Armada.

What makes these people "power gamers," the fact that they run strong lists or their actual behavior and attitude? It doesn't exactly take a tactical genius to identify things that are "good" in either X-wing or Armada, and I can't really support the idea of penalizing people just because they are exploring the game's limits and not intentionally handicapping themselves. If you want to play by different list building rules that's fine, but it needs to be made clear what the boundaries are rather than peer pressuring with some imaginary honor code and assuming they know what it is.

EXACTLY what I have been arguing a little about over the last year. Chill hates that I call out this crap but yeah give me FUN Games of STAR WARS X-Wing. This meta/win/viable-ships crap... I... HATE... IT!!!

I have always respected your enthusiasm for the game and its subject matter, but sometimes your disdain for competitive play confuses me. Obviously a large part of the appeal for most people is playing star wars, but it's also a star wars game. I find that the mental aspect of exploring the game and trying to improve your skill and strategy as well as the "pew pew I like to fly spaceships around" aspect are both essential to making a game fun as well as mentally engaging in the long-term.

I'm not an ultra competitive player but I do try to find a good balance between things I want to play and what actually works. I'm not averse to playing a game with restrictions if the opponent wants to try something different, but I'm also not going to take issue when someone shows up with a top tier competitive list.

It's not my intent to particularly attack either of you guys, but I have seen quite a few posts in FFG forums and other communities from people who seem to think that "playing for fun" and "playing to win" are mutually exclusive. People have fun in different ways, and while some people with a genuine "I MUST win at all costs" mentality can be unpleasant, the other end of the spectrum can be equally distasteful.

but I have seen quite a few posts in FFG forums and other communities from people who seem to think that "playing for fun" and "playing to win" are mutually exclusive.

That is at least semi-common. I think it's in part due to what some people think Warhammer 40k is like, and what it actually is like.

A good % of the people paying these games never played 40k or other miniature games but heard the horror stories and have an at least somewhat unreasonable fear it will happen here.

But you're right of course, anyone who thinks you can't both play to win and have fun are wrong, and anyone who thinks play to win = WAAC is quite frankly delusional. I mean there are people out there who don't find competition fun, but there are also people out there who can't have fun without it.

If you don't enjoy competition then stay clear of tournaments and play how you want. But I too get tired of the superior attitude some of those types seem to have.

EXACTLY what I have been arguing a little about over the last year. Chill hates that I call out this crap but yeah give me FUN Games of STAR WARS X-Wing. This meta/win/viable-ships crap... I... HATE... IT!!!

I have always respected your enthusiasm for the game and its subject matter, but sometimes your disdain for competitive play confuses me. Obviously a large part of the appeal for most people is playing star wars, but it's also a star wars game. I find that the mental aspect of exploring the game and trying to improve your skill and strategy as well as the "pew pew I like to fly spaceships around" aspect are both essential to making a game fun as well as mentally engaging in the long-term.

I'm not an ultra competitive player but I do try to find a good balance between things I want to play and what actually works. I'm not averse to playing a game with restrictions if the opponent wants to try something different, but I'm also not going to take issue when someone shows up with a top tier competitive list.

It's not my intent to particularly attack either of you guys, but I have seen quite a few posts in FFG forums and other communities from people who seem to think that "playing for fun" and "playing to win" are mutually exclusive. People have fun in different ways, and while some people with a genuine "I MUST win at all costs" mentality can be unpleasant, the other end of the spectrum can be equally distasteful.

That is about the only thing that bugs me Star Brother... and the talk which supports this mentality.

How old (mature) are these WAACers?

Honestly, they vary. Some are around my age (thirties) with a lot in their mid/late twenties. And we have one or two people from out of town that are the type to buy the latest hot 'net list before every tournament. It's not really a younger thing, it just seems to be what the meta has become. And it spilled over into X-Wing. There hasn't been an attempt at an X-Wing league or campaign in probably two years, but there's always a decent showing at a tournament, because the few casual players who would enjoy a league are all playing at home so they don't feel pressured to play against people who only care about winning. So we do have casual players, but you don't see them at our LGS.

[...]

And it's not really the fault of FFG or the X-Wing rules, it's just what a lot of local metas have become.

Just like bigtmac68 (welcome to the forum, man!), I think it's useful to make a separation.

In my community, there are plenty of people who are doggedly competitive and will absolutely play to win the game. However, in my community most of these people are also really fun to play against, because they're also really nice people with a generous sportsmanlike spirit.

When I think of WAAC, I think of someone who is unpleasant. Someone who messes with your mind (or just won't shut up) as you're trying to think through your moves, or who will contest meaningless shortcuts around the rules, or will exhibit other unpleasant forms of behavior.

Regarding campaigns, people know that I love the idea of a campaign, even if it's just a narrative backdrop that does not otherwise impact gameplay. But, that is also a ton of work and organization. Also, most people do not have an interest in sharing, much less contributing to, a common narrative experience. They want to have a quick game and not have to think too hard about the fantasy around it. Then there's the fact that a campaign generally needs a stable group of players, who will take the time to understand what the campaign is about.

I prefer Armada 100% over X-Wing in almost all cases. I find X-Wing "death match" style to be quite boring and repetitive. If you can get your group into it, I feel that the X-Wing co-op campaign that is out there is an excellent way to play.

I think the issue with X-Wing in my area is that it's become 40k. You can't have a casual league or campaign, because it ends up overloaded with power gamers who want to stomp faces instead of having fun, so the casual players just stop showing up.

I'm hoping that Armada's higher cost of entry and greater length of play will keep that from happening. At least in my area 40k tended to have the WAAC players where Fantasy had the more dedicated players out for fun that didn't involve power builds and min/maxing in pickup games. But who knows? Give it another year or two and a few more waves and I'll likely be saying the same thing about Armada.

What makes these people "power gamers," the fact that they run strong lists or their actual behavior and attitude? It doesn't exactly take a tactical genius to identify things that are "good" in either X-wing or Armada, and I can't really support the idea of penalizing people just because they are exploring the game's limits and not intentionally handicapping themselves. If you want to play by different list building rules that's fine, but it needs to be made clear what the boundaries are rather than peer pressuring with some imaginary honor code and assuming they know what it is.

By power gamers, I mean people that bring top-tier competitive lists in a non-tournament setting. We generally gear leagues and campaigns as more of a "have fun" type deal, but obviously winning is part of it. The problem is there is a decent chunk of the community who bring their absolute best lists. This means that everyone else would have to do the same, and we all know there are certain squadron builds and even some entire ships you can't field in a competitive environment. So now the non-competitive players have to either field the ships they want to field and lose every game, or also bring a competitive list and not use a chunk of their collection. So I suppose not quite WAAC, but highly competitive players who bring their highly competitive lists into what are supposed to be more relaxed environments. So then our "just for fun" players stop coming, because they don't enjoy getting thrashed all the time and they want to bring the ships they want to bring. Even if your opponent is perfectly pleasant, a lot of people won't have fun losing multiple games a week for a month or more.