Just had a question.

I already know Kisheri's response is going to be limited to "Due to an effect" ..... Will James Hata's R be the same? Limited to an effect instead of a cost?

If it did he would be utterly gimped.

As it stands, off of his E, or any E with a comittal cost he gets a free +1spd/dmg.

How many cards have you commit something as part of an effect?

Hata is in response to commital, Kisheri is in response to revealing, 2 completely different game states that are brought upon by different things.

I dont think they will change him accordingly, kisheri would severely punish reversals, as well as PLAYING A CARD LAWL.

If he becomes some brute powerhouse maybe they will tone him down, but i don't see it.

Kisheri cannot punish for reversals, playing cards etc., what she does punish for is revealing your hand, looking at opponenets hand, etc.
As it stands at the moment, speed buffs can make a huge buff. A stun attack + His E = +2Speed/+2Dmg. That is pretty powerful compared to many other decks at the moment. It seems to me he should be played more like a Paul Phoenix instead of a Hilde.

Also, this kinda would be more of a consistent ruling across the board.

Stun
Stun: X (Enhance) - E: Your opponent commits X of their foundations

Stun does not allow Hata to react. It has to be a foundation committed by you. Stun causes the opponent to commit foundations.

Kisheri's ability, unless it has been errata-ed without me seeing it, is not limited to card effects. Things like playing a card or reversal does not reveal a card from your hand, but instead moves the card from your hand (non-public zone) to the Transitional Zone (public zone), which effectively reveals it.

4.8.1 When a card is announced to be played from hand, it immediately enters this [Transitional] zone.

So Special K is able to react to things like King's F, Its Got to be the Hair, Bitter Rivals, etc., but not playing cards, reversals, blocks, etc.

-Tinman

here is a question added to this....

The E on Pommel Smash says you commit a card in your opponents staging area, if you chose a foundation can you R with James? I just want an answer on the boards

Yes, PS will let Hata get +1/+1. Not for the stun, but yes for the enhance. Unless of course you commit an Asset or Character with it in which case you can't use his R either.

Hayamachop said:

She reacts to revealing a card. When a player plays a reversal, they reveal a card as part of the cost.

I was simply stating that they adjusted her due to this reason (heck, you even reveal a card before you play ANY card....)

Hata works as intended. Kisheri "didnt"

Smazzurco said:

This is untrue.

Tinman said:

What part is untrue? Kisheri (as worded, i.e. unerratad) reacts to "revealing a card". When you play a card, before you make a CC, part of the "cost" is to reveal said card from your hand (giving the option to react with BRT for example). As worded, kisheri could then respond.

She got functional errata so that she reacts to revealing a card as part of a cost.

Are you saying it is untrue that you reveal a reversal before you play it or that that is not why she was errata'd?

Not trying to argue or say anybody is wrong, but I am not sure what you mean. Trying to prevent a misunderstanding/misinterprotation.

Btw, kisheri is still not legal correct?

Revealing a card is NOT part of playing it. Part of playing it is moving it into the Transitional Zone. This zone is a public zone, meaning both players know what the card is. There is no longer a 'Reveal the card from your hand' part of playing a card, including Reversals.

That is what was wrong with the previous statement. It is all outlined in Section 4.8 of the AGR. The only discrepancy is Reversals, wherein the rules were Copy-Pasted without taking into account 4.8. And Antigoth has clarified this multiple times. I believe the first official ruling was some time mid-September, but searching for that would not be a good use of time, as Antigoth, , IIRC, has it bookmarked for his own use, and will probably provide it when he gets around to it.

So basically, Special K was errata-ed to clarify when she can react, and to avoid future problems with wordings. She was not errata-ed to stop her from reacting whenever you play a card, as she CANNOT react at that time, as you never reveal the card from your hand.

-Tinman

Tinman said:

8.1.1 from current AGR

"To Attempt to play a card, a player reveals it from their hand"

Maybe this has been addressed and is scheduled to be changed in the NEXT AGR but this is how it stands in the current one.

This is the rules forum so try to explain why something is wrong. I don't think quoting the AGR is always needed (i seldom do) but at least explain a bit so people can furthorize (is that a word?) the discussion. Your quoted post above is perfect, you say what and why. Just saying "that's wrong" just brings more questions.

Well, we agree on HOW it is supposed to work, lol. So functionally at least we answered the question

Kishiri can only respond to costs and effects that reveal cards.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=30&efcid=5&efidt=196214&efpag=0#196558

kiit said:

The discussion had moved to why it was errata'd not wether or not it was. I was simply stating that according to 8.1.1 in the AGR when a player attempts to play any card, they first reveal it from their hand. A non-errata'd Kisheri could technically respond to that...

The only problem with 8.1.1, and I know this is getting a bit off subject, is that it is inconsistent with other sections of the AGR. Observe:

8.1.1 To attempt to play a card, a player reveals it from their hand.

verses

4.8 The Transitional Zone (Aka Purgatory, not to be confused with Limbo)
This is the area that a card moves through as it is in the process of being played. (See 8.1 Playing a Card
from Hand.)
4.8.1 When a card is announced to be played from hand, it immediately enters this zone.

By the language of these two rules, there is a conflict. When you declare that you are going to play a card, 4.8.1 says that you send it to the Transitional Zone(ie, not in your hand any more). 8.1.1, however, because it would happen second (the 'immediately' in 4.8.1 takes precedence), cannot happen, as the card is now in the T-Zone, instead of your hand. This would happen every time a card would be played, Reversal included.

So basically, Special K would be able to react to 8.1.1, if it were to ever happen. In the current AGR, 8.1.1 is impossible to do alongside 4.8.1.

-Tinman

Tinman said:

Only thing i could say (as far was what could be said to justify the AGR, not saying this is my opinion necesarily) is that in 4.8.1 when it references "announced to be played from hand" that is synonamous with "reveals from their hand showing that they would like to play".

Then again 4.8 says to see 8.1 for specifics so i could see 8.1 taking precedence.

Also, when you "reveal" the card to play it, it is NOT a card kisheri can discard because it is no longer in your hand, it is in the Transitional Zone, so Kisheri could not rid you of your last card. (assuming you are playing it i mean, of course she can off an R from something else .