They will only be too good when they come as a seperate squadron pack....

I was really looking foward to running 3 ship "A for Akbar" with a two boosted comms Afmk2s (with autoinclude gunnery, naturally) and Home One flinging around some 8 A-wings; then I remembered the fighter packs

Briefly: I believe that A-Wings are very worth taking, but not as uniformly superior as was the case in Wave 1.

What follows is a longer discussion of the the shortcomings of the Rebel Squadron Selection.

I am of the opinion that Rebel Squadrons are lacking in several key fashions:

• Rebel bombers are slow: "3" movement sounds good, but in reality, this is only slightly faster than a Victory or an MC80. The distance intervals on the cardboard range ruler are really quite unimpressive. As anyone who's had the misfortune of playing a rebel bomber list against a swarm (or even a well-navigated ISD/AFMK2 list), you have to fight against your own fighters to bring their "efficient" dice to bear. There are some ways to work around this:
  • Embrace your slowness: B-Wings are murderously efficient, die-wise, and they can easily grind down even the heaviest of capital ships over a few turns. This overlaps with "Escort your ships," below.
  • Leave those bombers behind: A-Wings are an excellent hedge, due to their particular allocation of speed, acceptable dice (both against ships and squadrons), and counter. YT-2400s have a similar effect. Though slightly slower and considerably less points-efficient for damage, they remove the need for carrier support.
  • Escort your ships: Ackbar and the broadside configuration of many rebel ships makes it much easier to keep "dice on target" for a longer period than the forward-facing Imperial ships. X-Wings (or even YT-1300s, though they aren't particularly popular) mixed with Jan Ors make for disproportionately durable fighter escorts. Against the Rhymerball boogieman, the ability to chew through escorts, kill Intel squadrons, and then gradually destroy that immensely expensive fighter wing for half or two thirds of its cost is a great lure.
• Rebel squadrons are (mostly) unfocused: Not paying for high speed mitigates the impact of this weakness when fighting other squadrons, but this comes out when comparing their ability to punish "skew" lists (e.g. lists which focus highly on high or low quantities of squadrons).
  • Comparisons: The closest ships between Imperials and Rebels are A-Wings/Interceptors and B-Wings/Bombers.
    • Bomber: The goal with this squadron is dealing damage to ships. The Y-Wing is almost strictly worse at this, due to the lower speed and higher cost. 1 point of hull will sometimes make the difference against flak, but only rarely so.
    • Interceptor: The A-Wing is a much better all-around squadron, and they are much better taken en-masse. However, the Interceptor fills its intended role - killing squadrons - better due to the admittedly conditional reroll (which works on normal and counter attacks!) and the superior alpha-strike.
  • Exceptions: The YT-1300 and B-Wing embrace their role (and slowness) fully. The pancake is an exemplary escort, due to its absurd 7 hull and counter, while the squid-fighter will beat the ever-loving crap out of anything that gets within its very stunted arms-reach.
• Rebels don't have any mechanic-warping blanket synergies: I believe that Heskel is on to something here. While Howlrunner swarms have fallen out of favor, Rhymer distorts the threat range (and thus damage - you can't kill what you can't reach) of not just the Tie Bomber and the Firespray, but literally any squadron which an imperial player takes.
  • Jan and Yavaris don't count: Jan Ors has an immensely powerful defensive ability, and Yavaris allows capitalization on certain Aces or strong bombers, but both are strictly limited in the number of squadrons that they can boost. Yavaris, in particular, is highly limited by both positioning (of both ship and squadron) and durability. Unlike Rhymer, who'll use his ability until he dies, Jan can run out of braces, and Yavaris can be burned down by any sizeable threat, be it Rhymer, Star Destroyer, or Clonisher.

I am of the opinion that my first and last points are what makes bomber-themed Rebel lists comparatively weak. The first winner of the Vassal World championships demonstrated that this could be partially circumvented, via use of Independence and Boosted Coms to move B-wings into a position where their absurd firepower could be properly leveraged. I hope that future waves bring fixes, rather than replacements. If Armada becomes a game where Rebels always use K-Wings and E-Wings (or whatever the latest power-creeping squadron ends up being) instead of their actual mainstays from the movies, I'll be sorely disappointed.

--

On a personal note, I strongly disagree with your position, AdmiralNelson. If you wish to remove a particular post, please report it. If it does not violate the forum's guidelines, trying to shame users to prevent them from posting content that doesn't interest you is a good way to create a hostile and exclusionary environment and remove interest and members from the community.

If you feel that particular discussions are of higher or lower value, do your best to involve like-minded individuals in those discussions which interest you more.

As Ardaedhel stated, I think the speed of the A-Wings is being understated in just how good it is in disrupting opposing squadron formations.

Conscientious Objector

I highly disagree on the Y-wing. It is a deceptively highly versatile ship and to get two of them at 20pts make an excellent cheap deployment. I cannot tell you how many games my y-wings won me simply because of that 3 speed. It is not great, but since I usually never have less than 4 of them I always have a few deployments over my opponents which allows me to dictate where the battle will be so the speed three is very negligible and enough to stay in range of ships for most of the game, unlike the b-wing. Your opponent will feel 4-6 black dice a turn on a single ship trust me. Worst thing is that 6 hull makes them all the more frustrating to deal with as it takes a lot more resources to bring that hull point down. I also add flight controllers to my carriers so they always have 3 blue dice on the attack against squadrons. I know on paper they don't seem that great, but on the table my opponents have come to respect them.

Never underestimate the power of Y-Wings in large numbers

Conscientious Objector

I highly disagree on the Y-wing. It is a deceptively highly versatile ship and to get two of them at 20pts make an excellent cheap deployment. I cannot tell you how many games my y-wings won me simply because of that 3 speed. It is not great, but since I usually never have less than 4 of them I always have a few deployments over my opponents which allows me to dictate where the battle will be so the speed three is very negligible and enough to stay in range of ships for most of the game, unlike the b-wing. Your opponent will feel 4-6 black dice a turn on a single ship trust me. Worst thing is that 6 hull makes them all the more frustrating to deal with as it takes a lot more resources to bring that hull point down. I also add flight controllers to my carriers so they always have 3 blue dice on the attack against squadrons. I know on paper they don't seem that great, but on the table my opponents have come to respect them.

Never underestimate the power of Y-Wings in large numbers

I guess my question is: why is this considered a selling point when the TIE Bomber does the same thing, at a greater range (Speed/Rhymer), for a comparable cost including Rhymer?

To bring over an example from the Clonisher threat range thread:

In The Land of the Alpha-Strikers, the Rhymer Man is King

Faction: Galactic Empire

Points: 394/400

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Precision Strike

Defense Objective: Fleet Ambush

Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)

- Admiral Motti ( 24 points)

- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)

- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)

- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)

- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)

8 TIE Bomber Squadrons ( 72 points)

1 Dengar ( 20 points)

2 TIE Advanced Squadrons ( 24 points)

Fleet created with Armada Warlords

What can the Rebel Alliance bring that is anywhere close to that level of reach, usability, and firepower? Trying to do the same thing as this list with Y-wings is going to get you left in the dust. Namely the space dust from your carriers that are getting hit from nearly twice their total operational range (compare Range 3 or 5 + Speed 3 + Range 1 and Range 3 or 5 + Speed 4 + Medium Range).

And if you hedge and bring a mix of X's and Y's and Jan, you'll probably beat that ball. But that isn't a virtue of the Y-Wing, it's a weakness of the skew list. You'll also get shrekt by a Clonisher (or other swarm) build with no real way to deter it without underbidding heavily to bring your 3-4 Blacks to bear

The inclusion of the mc80, imp destroyer and in particular the raider is why you dont see many Awings these days, get close to one of those ships and you will prob lose your 4hp Awings very fast

The issue I see with the Rhymer ball is that it gets tied down fairly easily by just having a few squadrons engage it. Also kill Rhymer and the ball finds itself out of position and ineffective. For the amount of points you put into it this is a serious detriment. Y-wings work great because I don't have to group them up together. As a rebel player my carriers are a lot more worthwhile to field, and thus I have no problems activating a bunch of y-wings a turn. They then proceed to hit ships in the hull zone where I can do the most damage. So with black bomber dice it gets pretty easy to plink at the shields and eventually the assault frigate contributes it shot to that same hull zone, and real hull damage emerges.

The issue I see with the Rhymer ball is that it gets tied down fairly easily by just having a few squadrons engage it. Also kill Rhymer and the ball finds itself out of position and ineffective. For the amount of points you put into it this is a serious detriment. Y-wings work great because I don't have to group them up together. As a rebel player my carriers are a lot more worthwhile to field, and thus I have no problems activating a bunch of y-wings a turn. They then proceed to hit ships in the hull zone where I can do the most damage. So with black bomber dice it gets pretty easy to plink at the shields and eventually the assault frigate contributes it shot to that same hull zone, and real hull damage emerges.

This would be the perfect reply if we would still play wave 1. With wave 2, everybody and his dog is bringing intel to the table, so "tying down" squadrons went from being too easy to being a huge pain. Going with conscientious operators example list, he is bringing dengar - a guy whos with 95% of imperial squadron-heavy lists. If you move him mid of your squadron phase to shift the intel bubble from one side of your ball to the other, there is no difficulty to cover 8 bombers. Killing rhymer or Dengar is also not as easy as it sounds, as you have to gnaw through the TIE advanceds.

I think now with the R&V ships, escort has become more valuable. You want to try and protect that 20 point squadron and you've got just the tool for it.

I think if you have a token force as a Rebel, you're better served running the A's. It's 2 points per ship you'll save over an X, it'll counter at least, and likely survive two attacks. But if you are planning on supporting a squadron setup, the X's and Y's become more appealing. I've never personally gotten the mass Y Wing thing, but it's clearly been used to some success.

I don't think anything in this game needs to be changed due to it being 'too good' and that's because there is a counter and/or cost for just about every conceivable combination. It's one of the beauties of this game and why there isn't a default fleet build for one side or the other that is just so strong that to not include it means courting a loss with equal skilled players.

As has been mentioned above, Intel and the desired inclusion of an escort squadron for the Intel squadron has reduced the effectiveness of counter squadrons like the A wing.

This would be the perfect reply if we would still play wave 1. With wave 2, everybody and his dog is bringing intel to the table, so "tying down" squadrons went from being too easy to being a huge pain. Going with conscientious operators example list, he is bringing dengar - a guy whos with 95% of imperial squadron-heavy lists. If you move him mid of your squadron phase to shift the intel bubble from one side of your ball to the other, there is no difficulty to cover 8 bombers. Killing rhymer or Dengar is also not as easy as it sounds, as you have to gnaw through the TIE advanceds.

Intel is great but there are many ways to stopping it. Remember Dengar cannot be everywhere at once, and when he is at the center of the formation surrounded by tie advances, just move your squadrons to engage the bombers outside and surround the formation (yet another use for A-wings). Then Dengar has to move to one side of the formation or another effectively still holding half the rhymerball formation down. Also if Dengar is surrounded by a lot of tie advanced with Rhymer that is a lot of points on the board. In which case I am more than happy to destroy that formation for the points alone.

I think now with the R&V ships, escort has become more valuable. You want to try and protect that 20 point squadron and you've got just the tool for it.

I think if you have a token force as a Rebel, you're better served running the A's. It's 2 points per ship you'll save over an X, it'll counter at least, and likely survive two attacks. But if you are planning on supporting a squadron setup, the X's and Y's become more appealing. I've never personally gotten the mass Y Wing thing, but it's clearly been used to some success.

This is definitely the approach that I would favor, but Rebel builds seem to be encouraging gunlines (in which case a modest number of X's + Jan is probably good - you don't really need the speed), or swarms, which don't really need the air cover.

Conscientious Objector

I highly disagree on the Y-wing. It is a deceptively highly versatile ship and to get two of them at 20pts make an excellent cheap deployment. I cannot tell you how many games my y-wings won me simply because of that 3 speed. It is not great, but since I usually never have less than 4 of them I always have a few deployments over my opponents which allows me to dictate where the battle will be so the speed three is very negligible and enough to stay in range of ships for most of the game, unlike the b-wing. Your opponent will feel 4-6 black dice a turn on a single ship trust me. Worst thing is that 6 hull makes them all the more frustrating to deal with as it takes a lot more resources to bring that hull point down. I also add flight controllers to my carriers so they always have 3 blue dice on the attack against squadrons. I know on paper they don't seem that great, but on the table my opponents have come to respect them.

Never underestimate the power of Y-Wings in large numbers

I guess my question is: why is this considered a selling point when the TIE Bomber does the same thing, at a greater range (Speed/Rhymer), for a comparable cost including Rhymer?

To bring over an example from the Clonisher threat range thread:

In The Land of the Alpha-Strikers, the Rhymer Man is King

Faction: Galactic Empire

Points: 394/400

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Precision Strike

Defense Objective: Fleet Ambush

Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)

- Admiral Motti ( 24 points)

- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)

- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)

- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)

- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)

8 TIE Bomber Squadrons ( 72 points)

1 Dengar ( 20 points)

2 TIE Advanced Squadrons ( 24 points)

Fleet created with Armada Warlords

What can the Rebel Alliance bring that is anywhere close to that level of reach, usability, and firepower? Trying to do the same thing as this list with Y-wings is going to get you left in the dust. Namely the space dust from your carriers that are getting hit from nearly twice their total operational range (compare Range 3 or 5 + Speed 3 + Range 1 and Range 3 or 5 + Speed 4 + Medium Range).

And if you hedge and bring a mix of X's and Y's and Jan, you'll probably beat that ball. But that isn't a virtue of the Y-Wing, it's a weakness of the skew list. You'll also get shrekt by a Clonisher (or other swarm) build with no real way to deter it without underbidding heavily to bring your 3-4 Blacks to bear

Garm

Assault Frig 2B

Flight Controllers

Expanded Hangers

Assault Frig 2B

Boosted Comms

Ruthless Strategists

Assault Frig 2B

Boosted Comms

Ruthless Strategists

12xY Wing

1xHwk 290

Precision/superior/Contested

400pts

Is WAY better than the list you posted. Easily gains superiority. If Rhymerball gets range, your airwing gets shredded.

Looking at Y's in a vaccuum is deceptive. They are the kings of the sky. 75 hit points in squadrons. 31 anti squadron dice. All activated. Ruthless strategists was made for Y's....and kills anything that engages them.

Y Wings rule.

Garm

Assault Frig 2B

Flight Controllers

Expanded Hangers

Assault Frig 2B

Boosted Comms

Ruthless Strategists

Assault Frig 2B

Boosted Comms

Ruthless Strategists

12xY Wing

1xHwk 290

Precision/superior/Contested

400pts

Is WAY better than the list you posted. Easily gains superiority. If Rhymerball gets range, your airwing gets shredded.

Looking at Y's in a vaccuum is deceptive. They are the kings of the sky. 75 hit points in squadrons. 31 anti squadron dice. All activated. Ruthless strategists was made for Y's....and kills anything that engages them.

Y Wings rule.

I like this list it looks wicked!!

except you have to much points in squadrons

I've gotten about 6 games under my belt with it, including a tournament. (I may do a write-up tonight)

Its not too many points in squadrons. Its only 132.

Im still feeling it out and need to be bolder with it...but Ive won all my games.

If enemy fighters attack you first...they get shredded. Nothing they can do. Even characters get blasted to bits. Dont overextend and slowly approach keeping fighters safe. Eventually the enemy fighters have to try and jump you or you bomb the crap out of something along with support fire from the carriers.

If the enemy airforce is significant at all...concentrate on it to get the points. If its a token force...ignore it and bomb the crap out of the ships.

The fun thing about Y-wings in wave two is that they "blank" Intel by already being heavy. They're aren't meant to tie down, they just attack the target. Flight Controller gives Ys a 50% increase in anti-squadron damage. 3 blue dice ain't horrible when it's also a black die bomber.

AFMK2-B times 3 gives you 9 activations.Expanded Hangars gives +1 activation.

You're still missing 3 Activations, are you not?

3 ships, 3 tokens on the key engagement.

Ah, of course, that's what Garm is for.

I'd have to see it in action. I'd happily do a test game against you on Vassal some time this week.

Garm gives the list versatility in the form of nav/repair/squad tokens twice in the game.

...so you just spam squad orders.

I would be down for a game, but my schedule is horrendous. Lemme know when you are available. We'll see.

I would play on Vassal every night. Darned family is in the way.

Intel is great but there are many ways to stopping it. Remember Dengar cannot be everywhere at once, and when he is at the center of the formation surrounded by tie advances, just move your squadrons to engage the bombers outside and surround the formation (yet another use for A-wings). Then Dengar has to move to one side of the formation or another effectively still holding half the rhymerball formation down. Also if Dengar is surrounded by a lot of tie advanced with Rhymer that is a lot of points on the board. In which case I am more than happy to destroy that formation for the points alone.

Thats not how Dengar works in a rhymerball as per my experience. When you are first placing your ball, you keep him to one side of it and cover him as good as possible with the TIEa. In following phases you only ever activate him halfway through the squadron phase, once the bombers his intel was covering have bombed away at will, and move him to the other part of the ball to let them drop their ****. The formation is also quite durable considering everything but Dengar is bringing 5 Hp, and if placed correctly usually earns points in ships killed faster than an A-wing wing (pun intended) could shoot them down to earn points back.