I can see where you are coming from, but the scratch for the itch for an investigaty plot was provided (in my opinion) by Han and Lando's investigation into the Dark Fleet. To be fair, I think the stuff about Leia herself wasn't bad, and there were interesting ideas (and I think my judgement of how an author characterises Leia is very much shaped by a combination of the films and how she is presented by Zahn. To be fair, in my eyes the characters in the Thrawn Trilogy are the definitive presentation of the characters post-Endor and so anything that deviates badly from it instantly makes me go "That ain't right"). It probably the Noghri plot specifically which bores me. I can't really even say why particularly, just I looked forward to the return to the other characters whenever I was reading about the Noghri. It may be that I really see the Thrawn plot as the the main thread, and the Noghri plot doesn't really feed into it (ok it does have its payoff right at the end, but as said I found the end annoying).

I liked the Noghri subplot. I think a lot of people will agree Leah got the narrative shaft on the OT. Despite being tortured horribly by Vader, then having her entire planet/family/etc slaughtered by Vader, she doesn't get the same closure at the end as Luke, who's greatest wrong was the loss of the mentor he just met (and possibly Owen and Beru, but I don't know if you can pin that on Vader).

Her plot in the Thrawn trilogy tied her closer and emphasized her relation to her father, and by righting one of his devastating wrongs, giver her a chance to confront him posthumously and defeat him. Not as dramatic as the toe to toe knockdown fight she got in Splinter of the minds Eye, but still good closure.

Intolerance for 'boring' non-action parts of a plot which are integral to the overall narrative is what earned us The Force Awakens.... Not everything needs to be action oriented to be interesting. A lot of people complain about the more recent books in the Song of Fire and Ice series because they are 'boring', but they have some of the most complex and politically satisfying plot lines for those patient enough to read through a bit of exposition.

One of the most brilliant part of the sequel trilogy, and specifically Leah's part with the Noghri, is the author lets each character win on their own merits, with their own specialties. Luke gets to take his place in the eternal battle between the space ninja clans, Solo gets to slink around the universe, shooting first and escaping with daring-do, and Leah get to win, not by being "Solo's Girlfirend" or "Luke's Sister" or a second-string gunfighter or a junior Jedi; she gets to win by being Senator Leah Organs Solo and the best **** diplomat in the whole **** universe. She walks into what is essentially a planet full of midget Predators, and convinces them to switch sides with a little sleuthing and *whole lot of talking

She wins by being herself, a strong female protagonist.

I hated Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor.

Not as much, though, as I hated Kevin J Anderson's Jedi Academy Trilogy, but almost. Anderson's mis-handling of the Falcon was terrible. It needs to be treated more as a character than just a ship.

I agree with Truce at Bakura too. Very amateurish at best.

And, Zahn's work stands apart. Of all the novels centering around the original characters, his portrayed each character's personality closest to the movies. Except Lando. I always thought Lando didn't behave like I would expect Lando to behave.

I hated Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor.

Not as much, though, as I hated Kevin J Anderson's Jedi Academy Trilogy, but almost. Anderson's mis-handling of the Falcon was terrible. It needs to be treated more as a character than just a ship.

I agree with Truce at Bakura too. Very amateurish at best.

And, Zahn's work stands apart. Of all the novels centering around the original characters, his portrayed each character's personality closest to the movies. Except Lando. I always thought Lando didn't behave like I would expect Lando to behave.

I've not read the Academy trilogy. Can you expound on what you mean by mishandling the Falcon?

Intolerance for 'boring' non-action parts of a plot which are integral to the overall narrative is what earned us The Force Awakens.... Not everything needs to be action oriented to be interesting. A lot of people complain about the more recent books in the Song of Fire and Ice series because they are 'boring', but they have some of the most complex and politically satisfying plot lines for those patient enough to read through a bit of exposition.

I don't have a problem with non-action bits. As I said, the mystery/intrigue elements of Han and Lando's storyline worked for me. It wasn't the fact there wasn't any action in Leia's sections, it was that I found the Noghri plot dull. Maybe it was because she was on her own primarily, without interesting characters (which I didn't find the Noghri... interesting ideas maybe, not interesting characters though) to interact with. Luke was involved with Mara Jade, Talon Kaarde, C'Boath, while Han and Lando spent a large part of the time together, so could play off each other. Leia... was mostly on her own (ok, she had C3PO, but he isn't the greatest character to have a conversation with).

And... the latest Song of Ice and Fire books were a bit dull. Yes, it is clear they are primarily build up for the next books (and the last few chapters of both are quite pacey, building up momentum), but after the roller coaster that was the 2nd and 3rd books, 4 and 5 were a bit much to have to wade through. I was fine with it in Game of Thrones (the book, ie the first, not the TV series), as it is introducing everything to you. However, with the 4th and 5th, at times it did feel a little "Well, lets get on with it... and stop starting new side plots which you will have to resolve before you can move on!" (Really, where is the Sam plot going? He got like 2 chapters and then nothing) Not saying it was badly written, just... I wish the plot moved a bit faster. And I don't mean TFA faster (I do feel it had too much going on action wise, though not as badly as the first JJ Star Trek film).

I hated Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor.

Not as much, though, as I hated Kevin J Anderson's Jedi Academy Trilogy, but almost. Anderson's mis-handling of the Falcon was terrible. It needs to be treated more as a character than just a ship.

I agree with Truce at Bakura too. Very amateurish at best.

And, Zahn's work stands apart. Of all the novels centering around the original characters, his portrayed each character's personality closest to the movies. Except Lando. I always thought Lando didn't behave like I would expect Lando to behave.

I quite like Shadows of Mindor. I felt the book failed to live up to the very interesting introduction ("I'm Luke Skywalker... please investigate me for war crimes.") but comparing it to Truce at Bakura it at least felt like Luke was characterised correctly ("I am a man who has had a life changing epiphany, but I still have doubts about my own role in the world" rather than "Hey, you know that character development I had over the past two films? Yeah, it never happened, I am still a wet behind the ears farm boy. Oh, and woe is me, I kissed my sister... even though it was clearly not going anywhere and a dig at Han") I thought it was an interesting attempt to fit together the pre-prequels novels and the post prequel novels in style (the more down to earth portrayal of force powered individuals in the earlier novels compared to the supa-space wizard ninjas of the prequels). However, I wasn't so pleased with the focus on the force.

Hmm... I felt Lando in the Thrawn trilogy worked quite well. He felt like a man who had turned "respectable", but still had that gambler and con man streak waiting to get out. The Shadows of Mindor Lando on the other hand... presenting him as some kind of military genius didn't quite gel with me (though the nod to his business in the Thrawn books amused me).

Is it bad that although I've read a most of them, I'm not a fan of the star wars x-wing series by Michael Stackpole?

I read and liked the Stackpole X-wing series. But I am a huge fan of his Battletech books.

I also liked the Zahn book, but they were a bit overdone. The only books from the EU that I really remember liking were the "Tales of.."

Everything else was for me was forgettable.

Now I just wish I could forget "Aftermath"....

The only books from the EU that I really remember liking were the "Tales of.."

I really like these, too. And these are books from Kevin J. Anderson.

The only books from the EU that I really remember liking were the "Tales of.."

I really like these, too. And these are books from Kevin J. Anderson.

Those were *edited by Anderson, but as a collection of short stories, they were each written by a bunch of different people.

and Leah get to win, not by being "Solo's Girlfirend" or "Luke's Sister" or a second-string gunfighter or a junior Jedi; she gets to win by being Senator Leah Organs Solo and the best **** diplomat in the whole **** universe. She walks into what is essentially a planet full of midget Predators, and convinces them to switch sides with a little sleuthing and *whole lot of talking

She wins by being herself, a strong female protagonist.

I don't remember Leia doing any diplomatic mojo on the Noghri. Only thing she did was show up and go up to them, and then wham kapow - instant deus ex machina plotline resolution on the grounds of all the little guys conveniently being Vader fanboys that'll conveniently transfer their fanboyism onto her.

Leia is barely a character in those books, she didn't actually do anything important other than just being there as a plot device. Which is incidentally the same as the movies - she's a walking plot device in the first movie and she's completely superflous and relegated to a window dressing role by the third one. She just needed to be there because she was in the first one and the movies needed a token female. Even the writers had no idea what to do with her, which is why over the trilogy she goes from haughty lady to stubborn housewife to damsel in distress to apparently badass to sassy and then all the way back in reverse order.

I distinctly remember being amused by a lenghty discussion on this board when the Leia IA sculpt was previewed - half the people were delighted that it fits the character perfectly, and the other half lamented that the pose is a terrible misrepresentation of the character. The entire argument went in circles multiple times, because no one realizd that their perception of 'Leia's character' was constructed entirely in their own heads - she literally isn't one.

And, Zahn's work stands apart. Of all the novels centering around the original characters, his portrayed each character's personality closest to the movies.

I have to disagree, what Zahn actually did was create personalities ranging from 'passable' to 'mildly interesting despite being horrible cliches' for all of his original characters, ie. all of the villains. All the main original trilogy characters were completely dull and lifeless cardboard cutout automatons with no personality whatsoever. Which in itself isn't that surprising, considering how little personality most of those characters had in the original movies.

What he actually did in order to (mind-) trick the reader into a sense of familiarity with the movie characters, was a fairly straightforward ploy of having those characters CONSTANTLY remember scenes from the movie in their internal monologues. Which quickly becomes extremely frustrating once you notice it, since he seems very proud of this little trick and proceeds to implement it at least once in every single chapter that has an original trilogy character as a focalizer, and even some Mara Jade sections for good measure.

You forgot the details. True, the "daughter of Vader" thing got her foot in the door, but that only got her as far as "not dead instantly". She figured out the Noghri timeline. She figured out the poison bots. She convinced the elders to not kill her and the one guy that vouched for her. Yes, it was a subplot, but she wasn't nearly as pointless as you say. She figured out the leak in the palace. If I remember it right, she was essential to getting Garm BelIblis and Mon Mothma to stop being pissy at each other.

True, she wasn't chopping up dog aliens in the jungle, but the crater gunfight was cool, the kashyyyk escape was cool, and the palace defense was also cool.

I will admit, its hard to build tension with a character that you *know can't die, but with the whole noghri negotiation there was still a *lot that could go sideways.

The EU books convinced me that the Empire was a more effective governing body than the New Republic. The NR was just utterly unprepared for every crisis. Boo, Republic. Boooooo.

Worst I've ever read: The Crystal Star. Couldn't even finish it, and I've read Truce at Bakura multiple times.

As for the best, I would have to nominate the Republic Commando novels. It is one of the few series that could get me to actually care about the characters on an individual level. I also really like Legacy of the Force for following the fall of a good Jedi to the dark side, and each decision that led

The EU books convinced me that the Empire was a more effective governing body than the New Republic. The NR was just utterly unprepared for every crisis. Boo, Republic. Boooooo.

Yeah, it's actually comical how bungling the NR always was, and even the GA to a certain extent.

In my opinion everything not written by Zahn, Stackpole or Allison is on a sliding scale of crap.

Truce at Bakura is silly and forgettable

The courtship of Princess Leia was awful and inconsistent

The Bounty Hunter Wars were terrible and conflicted with the superior Tales of the Bounty Hunters

The Crystal Star was so bad I've blanked out all memories of it

The books with Callista were stupid and pointless

Anderson is a hack who can only be tolerated in short doses

The black fleet trilogy was annoying

Everything beyond the Vong is just grim angst that was more like Warhammer 40k than Star Wars

90% of the old EU was bad.

It was the other 10% though that people feel are worth fighting for.

Everything beyond the Vong is just grim angst that was more like Warhammer 40k than Star Wars

Yeah... as soon as I knew what the Vong was all about I never stopped thinking Tyranids in Star Wars....

In my opinion everything not written by Zahn, Stackpole or Allison is on a sliding scale of crap.

Truce at Bakura is silly and forgettable

The courtship of Princess Leia was awful and inconsistent

The Bounty Hunter Wars were terrible and conflicted with the superior Tales of the Bounty Hunters

The Crystal Star was so bad I've blanked out all memories of it

The books with Callista were stupid and pointless

Anderson is a hack who can only be tolerated in short doses

The black fleet trilogy was annoying

Everything beyond the Vong is just grim angst that was more like Warhammer 40k than Star Wars

90% of the old EU was bad.

It was the other 10% though that people feel are worth fighting for.

See, I really loved the dark and grim Dark Nest, Legacy of the Force, and Fate of the Jedi series. They were the best longer series imo. In Legacy of the Force about 60% of introduced main EU characters got killed off. It's a really depressing series to read but really really good.

I have not read a single decent Star Wars novel or comic.

I've read a lot of Wookieepedia to get a sense of the stories that were out there, and I can say the vast majority of the EU sounded really, really, dumb.

• Clones of Palpatine
• Luke falling to the Dark Side and then shaking it off like the common cold (a couple times)
• A "Suncrusher" tiny little ship that is literally indestructible and when it's not killing entire solar systems can fly right through ships to blow them up
• The Yong are just Tyranids/Xenomorphs/Species4812/GenericOrganicInvasive Alien, with plot-armor protection from the Force
• We're to believe that for 50 years, every meaningful thing in the galaxy was accomplished by the same seven individuals with so much Plot Armor they'd make a Terminator-armor Space Marine look naked
• Lame zombie-worms to make zombie Storm Troopers to cash in on the zombie-fetishism of modern culture
• etc etc etc

Even the "X-Wing" series--which most point to fondly as passable stories--were profoundly silly. Wedge Antilles and Soontir Fel, being the two "best" pilots in the galaxy, of course have to be nemeses and have to meet multiple times. And, no exaggeration, during a dogfight at one point Wedge even lands his X-Wing on a planet after Soontir and they get out of their craft and have a fist fight. Of course, neither ever successfully kills one another. And of course, like any villain writers spend even a little time developing, Soontir effectively becomes a good guy, which is facilitated by Wedge marrying his sister. Ugh. Why? Why, why, why?!!?


The Extended Universe was overwhelming garabge, and Disney did us all some big favors by nuking it from orbit. Of course, the storylines of a lot of their new comics and novels have been criticized and negatively received as a lot of the classic stuff with the lone exception of the Vader comic series, so I can't it was really a "win." And The Force Awakens sure involved some lazy story-telling. So, eh. I guess it's still better than Suncrushers and Mindharps and Zombie Stormtroopers and clones of Palpatine* (*pending Snoke's identiy, I guess...).

I have not read a single decent Star Wars novel or comic.

I've read a lot of Wookieepedia to get a sense of the stories that were out there, and I can say the vast majority of the EU sounded really, really, dumb.

• Clones of Palpatine
• Luke falling to the Dark Side and then shaking it off like the common cold (a couple times)
• A "Suncrusher" tiny little ship that is literally indestructible and when it's not killing entire solar systems can fly right through ships to blow them up
• The Yong are just Tyranids/Xenomorphs/Species4812/GenericOrganicInvasive Alien, with plot-armor protection from the Force
• We're to believe that for 50 years, every meaningful thing in the galaxy was accomplished by the same seven individuals with so much Plot Armor they'd make a Terminator-armor Space Marine look naked
• Lame zombie-worms to make zombie Storm Troopers to cash in on the zombie-fetishism of modern culture
• etc etc etc

Even the "X-Wing" series--which most point to fondly as passable stories--were profoundly silly. Wedge Antilles and Soontir Fel, being the two "best" pilots in the galaxy, of course have to be nemeses and have to meet multiple times. And, no exaggeration, during a dogfight at one point Wedge even lands his X-Wing on a planet after Soontir and they get out of their craft and have a fist fight. Of course, neither ever successfully kills one another. And of course, like any villain writers spend even a little time developing, Soontir effectively becomes a good guy, which is facilitated by Wedge marrying his sister. Ugh. Why? Why, why, why?!!?

The Extended Universe was overwhelming garabge, and Disney did us all some big favors by nuking it from orbit. Of course, the storylines of a lot of their new comics and novels have been criticized and negatively received as a lot of the classic stuff with the lone exception of the Vader comic series, so I can't it was really a "win." And The Force Awakens sure involved some lazy story-telling. So, eh. I guess it's still better than Suncrushers and Mindharps and Zombie Stormtroopers and clones of Palpatine* (*pending Snoke's identiy, I guess...).

I have not read a single decent Star Wars novel or comic.

I've read a lot of Wookieepedia to get a sense of the stories that were out there, and I can say the vast majority of the EU sounded really, really, dumb.

• Clones of Palpatine
• Luke falling to the Dark Side and then shaking it off like the common cold (a couple times)
• A "Suncrusher" tiny little ship that is literally indestructible and when it's not killing entire solar systems can fly right through ships to blow them up
• The Yong are just Tyranids/Xenomorphs/Species4812/GenericOrganicInvasive Alien, with plot-armor protection from the Force
• We're to believe that for 50 years, every meaningful thing in the galaxy was accomplished by the same seven individuals with so much Plot Armor they'd make a Terminator-armor Space Marine look naked
• Lame zombie-worms to make zombie Storm Troopers to cash in on the zombie-fetishism of modern culture
• etc etc etc

Even the "X-Wing" series--which most point to fondly as passable stories--were profoundly silly. Wedge Antilles and Soontir Fel, being the two "best" pilots in the galaxy, of course have to be nemeses and have to meet multiple times. And, no exaggeration, during a dogfight at one point Wedge even lands his X-Wing on a planet after Soontir and they get out of their craft and have a fist fight. Of course, neither ever successfully kills one another. And of course, like any villain writers spend even a little time developing, Soontir effectively becomes a good guy, which is facilitated by Wedge marrying his sister. Ugh. Why? Why, why, why?!!?

The Extended Universe was overwhelming garabge, and Disney did us all some big favors by nuking it from orbit. Of course, the storylines of a lot of their new comics and novels have been criticized and negatively received as a lot of the classic stuff with the lone exception of the Vader comic series, so I can't it was really a "win." And The Force Awakens sure involved some lazy story-telling. So, eh. I guess it's still better than Suncrushers and Mindharps and Zombie Stormtroopers and clones of Palpatine* (*pending Snoke's identiy, I guess...).

You must have missed the original post. This isn't for complaining about things you dont actually know about. How many of the books have you *read? Nobody cares what you scanned over on wookiepedia.

Maybe you missed the point of my post. Note that while I haven't read everything from the EU (I'm not a masochist) I have read way more than I'm proud to admit (a perk/downfall of having a job with lots of free time and a friend that owns a used book store), and I've scanned an awful lot of the remaining blindspots on the wikia (usually as I figure out who X, Y, or Z are from some game).

I've read:

• The X-Wing Series of books (Rogue and Wraith Squadrons)
• The Zahn Trilogy
• The Dark Forces Triology
• Death Troopers
• Aftermath
• Tales of the Bounty Hunters
• The Adventures of Lando Calrissian
• Han Solo at Star's End
• Shadows of the Empire
• Tarkin
• Darth Plagueis

• Vader Comics
• Shattered Empire Comics
• Lando Comics

If that's not enough to have formed an acceptable opinion, then okay whatever. Please continue to tell me how your views are better than mine...

I have not read a single decent Star Wars novel or comic.

I've read a lot of Wookieepedia to get a sense of the stories that were out there, and I can say the vast majority of the EU sounded really, really, dumb.

• Clones of Palpatine
• Luke falling to the Dark Side and then shaking it off like the common cold (a couple times)
• A "Suncrusher" tiny little ship that is literally indestructible and when it's not killing entire solar systems can fly right through ships to blow them up
• The Yong are just Tyranids/Xenomorphs/Species4812/GenericOrganicInvasive Alien, with plot-armor protection from the Force
• We're to believe that for 50 years, every meaningful thing in the galaxy was accomplished by the same seven individuals with so much Plot Armor they'd make a Terminator-armor Space Marine look naked
• Lame zombie-worms to make zombie Storm Troopers to cash in on the zombie-fetishism of modern culture
• etc etc etc

Even the "X-Wing" series--which most point to fondly as passable stories--were profoundly silly. Wedge Antilles and Soontir Fel, being the two "best" pilots in the galaxy, of course have to be nemeses and have to meet multiple times. And, no exaggeration, during a dogfight at one point Wedge even lands his X-Wing on a planet after Soontir and they get out of their craft and have a fist fight. Of course, neither ever successfully kills one another. And of course, like any villain writers spend even a little time developing, Soontir effectively becomes a good guy, which is facilitated by Wedge marrying his sister. Ugh. Why? Why, why, why?!!?

I think it is a bit harsh saying there are no decent novels or comics. I personally think there are a couple of good ones (not literary classics or anything, just solid fun fiction reads) among a pile of mediocrity and drek.

I think I can agree on most of the things you have mentioned as being dumb. The "superweapon of the week" issue that was particularly highlighted by the Suncrusher is one that particularly bugs me (and is why Death Star 3 bugs me as well... new "even more powerful" superweapons had been a problem in the books, so why the hell continue it in the new films?), and is another reason why the Thrawn Trilogy stands out to me (no superweapons, and the closest things we get all have fatal flaw that means they have to be used very carefully to be of any use). And yes, the whole issue of "everything ever has been done by, like, 5 people, and the few that are those 5 all know those 5 people personally" is another one that gets a bit ridiculous.

I hope you guys are aware for a moment in that all these writers were given guidelines to write about and in some cases theyre hired to write about specific stuff and so they arent fully guilty of a bad story. A couple of years ago I read an interview with Stackpole (i love his Battletech novels... most of them anyway... lol) and he said that many times he wanted to go a specific route but wasnt allowed for some reason or another (Kevin Anderson also "blamed" the same problem for some of the storytelling). Just saying...