So I was chatting with a few fellows at my FLGS recently and the topic turned to list building and how much offense is enough. One of my mates was lamenting that his Fat Han/Jake build just didn't seem to have the killing power needed to chew through quad y's, 3K, or a number of other HP heavy builds before he loses or time is called. We noted that outside of prockets, he is only naturally throwing 5 red dice a turn. When a list has 30 HP, even if he is perfect on his throws, it will take at least 6-7 rounds to chew through that much beef.

Now, pilot skill and flying do come into play if you can eliminate ships before they fire and out range some others, but we were asking ourselves, how much offense do you want to bring before you feel comfortable? Do you make changes to your list because it lacks firepower? Does having two 3-4 dice shots make up for lots of 2 dice ones?

Someone playing Fat Han is complaining about enemy ship health?

Pot, meet Kettle.

8 attack is my threshold I won't go under without feeling uneasy I prefer 9-10.

Tuesday I played a control list two y-wing's and a HWK all with ion cannons it didn't fare so well and didn't even kill one of my ships three damage a turn was not enough.

Dice can and do go cold on you so the more you roll the better in my view.

TLT lol. Okay well to be fair lets say 6 red dice. That is a TLT shot or a Han solo shot. With Gunner you could make it 12 red dice. I think that should be able to break through autothursters evade 2x focus block that you start to see. But yeah here are a few examples of ships that can roll 6 (or more) red dice in a single turn.

• Gold/Thug w/Twin Laser turrets
• Han Solo
• Corran Horn
• Whisper w/Gunner

Do these look familiar to anyone?

Idk I mean it depends on the rolls like a lot in this game. I finding with Cracks h it that rolling more dice is a bit nicer then just a acing my way through the table. Take my one game the other day. I was playing against 2 ys and a yv, with my 4 ties and a advance. Even with my advanced having AC I still rolled horrible with my ties and he eventually won. 10 against 8ish. Still took a lot of MOV, but health wise he just won because of that. (He also had nice rolls too.)

When I first strated playing, I saw it was a red dice game! I am always looking for more red dice per ship! Hence, three att draw my attention and I like to have as many of those ships on the board at one time as possible. Three-3 ATT ships is my minimum, giving 9 dice at ranges 2-3! Range one gives 12 dice maximum. Adding HLC or some ordnance helps, but I'm always looking for red dice!

If I have less than 11 red dice, I feel unconfortable. I am used to 14 red dice.

Honestly I don't think I've ever thought of a squad in terms of the number of red dice it had. I've won league matches against Fat builds with only 6 red dice native, but that was stuff like Punisher/Vader/TIE so there were missiles and bombs and torpedoes and Vader. But now that I'm thinking about it, many of my best lists only have about an average of 8 dice native, or around 11-12 when factoring in range 1.

So it seems like 8-9 is the threshold between a viable list. Interesting. Too few and you can't kill your enemy, especially regen.

So it seems like 8-9 is the threshold between a viable list. Interesting. Too few and you can't kill your enemy, especially regen.

It all depends. I usually do 2 damage per round and I still kill regen ships... but one is from a flechette and the other from an ion cannon, so I basically stop the regen aspect and then take the ship out of the game. It can take a good 5 to 6 rounds afterwards to kill Poe, but if he can't manoeuver or use actions then it's just a matter of being patient (while ignoring the grumbling of your opponent). Such is the lot of playing a control list.

Funny thing is the number of red dice isn't necessarily the key factor in what make a list viable: it is just a side effect.

If I field a single ship, my opponent will fly in a way that every single ship is trying to have me in arc, while trying to stay out of my arc.

If I field two ships, my opponent will have to fly differently. Now he will have to choose which ship to attack and depending upon which if us is able to read the other player best, one of us will create better opportunities for himself.

When I field three ships, my opponent will have even harder decisions to make because now I can support each ship with the others, etc.

I don't think it is coincidental that world championships are won using three ship builds - I just think that three ships hits a sweet spot for those who know how to fly and can think strategically (baiting, using terrain, ambush, supporting fire, etc.). Three ships with three attack dice ends up being around 9 red...

I am not suggesting that red dice don't matter, or that flying alone wins games. I am just positing the notion that the number of red dice will depend on the number of ships one can proficiently fly. Swarms can be very effective, but they can be taken down by a list with a lot less dice, primarily because when you fly too few or too many ships, you run into the same problem - it is difficult to keep your enemy in arc while staying out of arc yourself. Three ships seems to hit that sweet spot.

TL;DR: three ships builds are the most efficient for staying out of arc, while keeping enemy in arc; typically they have 8-9 red dice.

edited for clarity

So it seems like 8-9 is the threshold between a viable list. Interesting. Too few and you can't kill your enemy, especially regen.

I think that's as good a number to pick as any, in a general sort of way. I mean, there's always exceptions

I don't think it is coincidental that world championships are won using three ship builds - I just think that three ships hits a sweet spot for those who know how to fly and can think strategically (baiting, using terrain, ambush, supporting fire, etc.). Three ships with three attack dice ends up being around 9 red...

edited for clarity

World championships have never been won with anything less than 4 ships if I'm not mistaken

Bandit, Y,Y, Poe

Han, Z,Z,Z

Biggs, B,B,X

TIE Swarm

Funny thing is the number of red dice isn't necessarily the key factor in what make a list viable: it is just a side effect.

TL;DR: three ships builds are the most efficient for staying out of arc, while keeping enemy in arc; typically they have 8-9 red dice.

edited for clarity

Exactly, unless you have "tanks" like 4Bs, then getting everybody out of arc isn't as important.

I don't mind having 7 or less red dice per round as long as Corran or some FCS is there. Otherwise it can be very frustrating for both players.

I find that the number of red dice is secondary to the quality of your red dice. For example:

8 Academy TIEs = Between 16 and 24 red dice depending upon range

But if you have no actions or are facing high agility ships those dice can be worthless because you're rolling 2-3 at a time. Now slap Howlrunner in that list and your rolls are significantly better. With a focus you can nearly guarantee 2 hits on 2 dice. Then it's just a matter of them missing.

Now go to the other extreme. Heavy Laser Cannons fires 4 dice in one attack. If you have some actions or abilities that help increase the hit rate of those red dice then an HLC shot can be more powerful than a good number of TIEs.

In a few weeks I'll be running Palp+Aces. My shuttle stays the hell out of battle most of the time leaving me with only 5 red dice. With abilities and actions, those red dice are extremely potent. I rarely have games go to time.

I would like to hear some MajorJuggler analysis on this. I'm sure he would include a massive number of variables above and beyond a simple red dice count.

Let me preface this by saying I'm no expert, nor mathwinger. But let's be real, this game is all about inflicting damage on your opponent while keeping it off you. The worse your defense is, the better your offense better be. However, there comes a point where it's just too few red dice. I personally have never flown an ion cannon, only because it seems like a waste of a ship. Sure, ioning/controlling a ship is beneficial, because then a friendly can mop him up. But why not just drop the ion and mop it up yourself with the original ship? I understand ioning/control is part of keeping damage off yourself, but he still has to be shot down eventually. Just take a build capable of more damage. I also understand that adding actions and other upgrades helps mitigate damage and push more damage through to your opponent, but is 12 points of upgrades really worth more than an extra Z-95 or Tie? To me, no. I'll take the extra hit points (typically valued at around 3 points/hull), extra red dice, and extra target so my opponent can't focus fire as well. I never understood two ship builds. I know Chirpy/Fel have been a powerful meta of late, but it's still only 6 dice/turn standard. Max 8 dice/turn at range 1 is nice, and even better with Expose on Chirpy. But it's still only 2 ships, and easier to focus down. My lists have a minimum of 3 ships, ideally 4. The more red dice the better. Same principle for why Hogs and TLTs are the hot Meta right now.

Its true I suppose, that how the dice are carried and actions they get to use matters a bit more than just volume. I'm sure people would rather use 1 ship that threw a single 10 die attack over 10 ships that each throw 1 attack die.

Offense is my number one concern when constructing a list. Enough planning and good play can solve a lot of maneuverability and pilot skill deficiencies, but if you can't do damage, the best plans in the world won't help you. Subsequently, my lists tend to be heavy on the teeth. That being said, I don't really look at numbers of red dice overall. A lot of dice in one place are worth way more than those dice spread out in separate attacks. For example, I roughly rate an HLC with Predator to be about as good as two regular 3-dice attacks and four regular 2-dice attacks. It obviously depends a lot on the ship that's making the attack and the ship that's defending.

As someone who ran TIE swarms for a while, I look at it as less of a total number of Attack dice per turn and more of an average Attack dice per attack. 2 Primary Attack is just plain weak unless you have some shenanigans (Howlrunner, Accuracy Corrector, Advanced Targeting Computer, etc...) going on to empower it. Sure, a bunch of 2 Attack dice can melt a low (0-1) Agility ship, but they will struggle against 3+ Agility ships (the + is due to Autothrusters or some other enhanced defense mechanism) to the point of futility.

This is why the Phantom or Heavy Dash is so powerful. A good roll of 4 Attack dice will punch through most any defense.

To answer the OP, I need at least one 3+ Attack ship in my list to punch through defenses. This is why I need a Defender, Interceptor, or Phantom around to bring a big stick.

It's not quantity of attack dice, it's quality of them. I've run Soontir and Whisper at 79 points and that's only 7 attack dice, but Whisper's offense carries so hard that it doesn't matter. Burst damage one one or two high attack value and modified shots is more valuable than a greater amount of attacks spread out amongst more attacks generally.

Against a Soontir, 2 attack dice might as well be zero.

I would rather have a 38 point Prockets Vader with engine upgrade and VI than 2 Alpha Squadron Interceptors.

Are the enemy ships destroyed? That much offense

it's never enough

not even poor redline vomiting out a total of 12 potential dice AND g-chip mods with CM + re-rolls can beat bull rng

Your 4x3 red dice are impressive, but if they point towards the emptiness of the Void, what good are they?

So it seems like 8-9 is the threshold between a viable list. Interesting. Too few and you can't kill your enemy, especially regen.

There is no such threshold.

I find that the number of red dice is secondary to the quality of your red dice...

I would like to hear some MajorJuggler analysis on this. I'm sure he would include a massive number of variables above and beyond a simple red dice count.

Each combination of hull, shields, Agility, and upgrades offers its own degree of durability. That durability also interacts with the attacking ship's number of dice, the game's geometry (in/out of arc, range, obstacles), and the game state (who has what tokens and effects to modify dice?)

So the "massive number of variables" here is actually pretty big, and as a result it's never a good idea to just count up the number of red dice in a list and conclude that it's too much or not enough.

Just as one example, a list with Rear Admiral Chiraneau and Vader nominally has 5 red dice available. But that doesn't include the list's ability to dodge arcs and control range, Vader's Advanced Targeting Computer (which is often better than an extra red die), Chiraneau's Gunner and ability to modify dice, or really any of the information you'd need to determine how good the list's offense actually is.

Or, as another example, consider a swarm of 4 Bandit Squadron Pilots and 4 Tala Squadron Pilots, put up against a Palpatine Aces list with Whisper and Omega Leader. The swarm has a total of 16 red dice. Is that enough offense? After all, the Palpatine Aces list only has 9 red dice.

Its true I suppose, that how the dice are carried and actions they get to use matters a bit more than just volume. I'm sure people would rather use 1 ship that threw a single 10 die attack over 10 ships that each throw 1 attack die.

Yeah, that's exactly right. Throw the target's Agility in the mix to get an even more complete picture: if the target is a Decimator, it usually doesn't matter whether you have a single shot at 10 Attack or ten shots at 1 Attack. (Actually, you'd rather have the 10 ships, because some of them can probably get to Range 1.) But if the target is Soontir Fel, it matters very much how those 10 dice are distributed: you're fairly likely to kill him with the single big shot, but he can easily shrug off the ten little shots.