Ok, I've narrowed my choices down to three, but can't decide which avatar I want to play. They all sound like fun in their own ways. We'll be starting at silver.

Beastlord
Focused
3 Spawn Treachery
Silver Humanoids
The 2 Farrows
Silver eldritch (purchased on the first turn)
15 saved to upgrad humanoids to gold in the future

The beastman lord would rule the dungeons, especially rumors and legendary areas where the group can't flee without leaving behind the prize they came for. Also, we're not using the unoffical thread of answers here, so spawns work as normal in encounters. Our last campaign ended after a fight with Eliza Farrow gave a TPK, so 3 spawn treachery and cheaper spawns means hordes of bad guys to protect the lieutenants.

The Titan
2 Spawn Treachery
1 Event Treachery
Silver Humanoids
The 2 Farrows
Silver eldritch (purchased on the first turn)
15 saved to upgrad humanoids to gold in the future

The titan would play much like the beastman lord, but with some added event trickiness (Crushing Blow, huzzah!). Thaadd is cheaper than the two lieutenants the beastman lord gets, and similar in effect (faster sieges), so he'll likely be my first purchase after gold humanoids (kobolds and beastmen out the ears).

Spider Queen
Silver Beasts
Focused
The 2 Farrows
Slaggaroth
4 Trap treachery
1 Event treachery
3xp saved

The Spider Queen's dungeon presence is much weaker, though traps can be painful. However, she'll be much stronger when it comes to whittling down the heroes in encounters and the event treachery will be useful for Crushing Blow in dungeons and a Danger + Rage combo in lieutenant encounters (once the party gets Wind Pact so Crushing Blow is useless there).

Demon Prince
Kar-Amog-Atoth
Silver Eldritch
4 Event Treachery
Siege Engines
The 2 Farrows
Focused
4 xp saved

Though also focusing on the overland map, the demon prince's eldritch upgrades leaves him some bite in the dungeons, and access to Crushing Blow, Enraged, Dark Power (for Dark Priests), Ambush, and other fun events will hopefuilly go far in differentiating him from the Sorcerer King, who was the overlord in our last campaign. Siege Engines and Kar-Amog-Atoth mean -2 to a city's defense value and the silver backup will help protect at least 2 of the lieutenants. My first 11xp would probably combine with the 4 saved to buy a point of spawn treachery, for even more lieutenant protection. After that, a Travel Gem to put my special lieutenant in the farthest city from the heroes.

No matter who I play, I'll be trying to summon a bunch of comets for the Ascension plot. I'll be flat out ignoring the opportunities to siege Tamalir, as that's how our last campaign ended and I don't want to retreat old ground.

With the Demon Prince, it may be better to start at 3 event treachery and save 14xp. That's enough for 1 spawn treachery on the first turn. 2 Legions of the Dead in dungeons and 1 in lieutenant encounters can add some hurt.

James McMurray said:

The answers in the GLOAQ are from official FFG sources only. It is not an 'unofficial thread'.

Playing spawns like dungeons in encounters is a house rule not intended by FFG and radically changes the game making Lt fights much much harder.

For the Spider Queen you really want the upgrade "Into my Parlor". I would the 1 point of event treachery for this as it makes your traps much more dangerous, and speeds up how soon you cycle the deck by one turn generally.

The advantage of having two trap cards of your choice already available, without counting against your hand limit is hard to beat, especially when you have the bonus damage from the Spider Queen boosting them. I have used a crushing block, spiked pit combo right from the start of the game, or for you with all that trap treachery you could use Animate weapons and dark charm. Having those in your hand on the first move the hero's make in a dungeon came be truly brutal.

The other upgrade you might consider is Acidic Poison. As this gives pierce 2 and burn to all spiders, and you already have Slaggoroth who has nothing but spider minions, it makes for a really dangerous encounter for the hero's. The downside is you pay 20xp for it, so it is a harder choice than Into my Parlor

brian

Corbon said:

While they may be from developers, they're not on the support page and thus are unlikely to be considered official by my group.

Corbon said:

So which official source should I believe? The forum thread that says I can attack multiple lieutenants in one turn, or the customer service response that says I can't?

bneumann said:

I thought about that, and honestly can't remember why I didn't do it. Though I'd probably find something besides the event treachery to drop, since event treachery gives the all powerful Crushing Blow (or Danger in lieutenant encounters once the heroes get Wind Pact).

bneumann said:

I like that upgrade, but it's way too costly. I think the developers have way overvalued Burn. Heck, for just 5 more xp I could upgrade the entire beast category. That would give spiders +1 Speed, +4 wounds, +1 Armor, +2-3 average damage (albeit at the cost of some range), and master spiders would upgrade their silver die to gold. The damage increase is easily the equal of pierce 2 + burn, and the rest of the benefits are worth way more than 5xp.

James McMurray said:

Is not a GLOAQ (answered by FFG staff, not by forum goers) on the official FFG forum official? Many of the answers were literally 'official' answer on previous versions of this official forum. Unfortunately the old records were lost in a rather bumbling changeover to this forum.

Edit: BTW, congrats on actually getting an answer at all.

Well, an answer from customer support that is as uncertain and vague as this...

These aren't necessarily contradictory. Although the FAQ answer could easily be read to suggest that you only battle one LT per turn (and I think I wrote it with that intention , although it was a long time ago ), it does not expressly state that . It merely makes it clear that you battle one LT at a time – you "choose one to encounter," but per the forum rules answer (note here that the source considers the forum rules answer!) you could then choose to encounter the other after the first encounter has been completely resolved.

In fact, I seem to recall an FAQ answer to the tune of "you can then encounter the next LT if you are still in the same space, i.e. you won the battle or the space in question is Tamalir."

Okay, I just reread the FAQ - here's the full text of the relevant question:

Q: What happens when there are multiple lieutenants in the same space as the hero party? If the heroes (or the overlord) choose to attack, are both lieutenants present at the same encounter?
A: Each lieutenant is an entire encounter unto himself. If the heroes choose to attack a lieutenant when there are two or more lieutenants in the same space, they must choose one to encounter. The overlord may attack the hero party with one lieutenant at a time. Only if the heroes are still in the same location at the end of the encounter (if the heroes win or the lieutenant flees, or if the space in question is Tamalir) can the next lieutenant attack

It seems to imply you can only attack one LT per turn.

it is dubious to claim that there is an official ruling from this reply that you can only attack 1 Lt per turn. It does in fact say exactly the opposite!
Note that the reply specifically says that the the FAQ "does not expressly state this" (that you can only fight 1/turn). Later, the reply simply says that it 'seems to imply' this. Gosh, now there is a ruling worthy of the name! It also also specifically says that "you could then choose to encounter the other (Lt) after the first encounter has been completely resolved."

The last sentence is simply acknowledging why the question was asked...

James McMurray said:

Umm, you already are/will be upgrading Beasts?

I agree, that it is overpriced. But a boost on top of a boost is better than it looks. It is also exceptionally useful when you get Slaggoroth (7spiders IIRC?)

Any chance we could just have this conversation in the thread I started about this FAQ and the contradictory answers being given? Suffice it to say that I agree with you, but we've got a non-strict pseudo-policy in our group: if a company wants an answer to be considered official, they'll put it in their official rules document.

I'd like to keep this one focused on the avatars I'm thinking about using and the options I've picked, though I'm unlikely to change my choices on XP spending, even if something better is presented. I'm looking for something to break the tie between too many fun-looking options, not min-max my play against the heroes.

Corbon said:

I could upgrade beasts to gold on the first turn of the game if I had the 25xp to spend. Even if I only had 20, I'd much rather wait and upgrade beasts to Gold on turn 2 or 3 then spend 20xp on that. If it cost 15 I'd be all over it, but at 20 there's no reason to get it instead of upgrading an entire category (and thus helping out multiple lieutenants, and the lieutenant in question even more the the 20xp alternative). With all the other things begging to have XP spent on them, there's barely a reason to tack it on top of gold beasts either, at least IMO.

Into my Palour is nice when you have Animate Weapons and Dark Charm sitting there waiting to be unleased.

James McMurray said:

Actually, you can't do that. In the Copper level of the campaign, the OL is allowed to upgrade a single class of monsters to Silver. Once the campaign reaches Silver level, the OL can upgrade a single class of monsters (generally the already Silver one) to Gold.

I don't see why it isn't allowed. During the setup period I upgrade beasts to silver. During the first week o our silver campaign, I upgrade those same beasts again to gold.

Granted, the default rule don't mention the overlord actually being able to spend his XP, but if you assume like we're doing that it's an error, then there's nothing to stop you from making multiple upgrades like that, so long as you have the 25xp on week 1 of the silver tier.

James McMurray said:

Given that the OL starts with 15 xp, how did you manage to upgrade beasts to silver during the setup.

Edit ignore the above missed you starting at silver in the posts.

James McMurray said:

Also forgot that you were starting in Silver... my bad!

Thought of a new Titan layout if I go that route. This one focuses a lot more on the overland map, and accounts for me confusing Kar-Amog-Atoth and Thaadd (I thought it was the demon that lowerd city defense values):

2 Spawn Treachery
1 Event Treachery
The 2 Farrows
Thaadd the Destroyer
Siege Engines
Focused
Silver something

I can't decide what to upgrade to silver first, humanoids or eldritch, though I'm leaning towards eldritch since they'll net me more XP and are easier to spawn. That would leave me 5 xp unspent, which would be saved for upgrading humanoids next. If I start by upgrading humanoids instead, it strengthens Thaad, weakens Lord Merrick, and means I'll only need to earn 15xp to upgrade eldritch. Though that 15 would be harder to earn in dungeons because humanoids are not as common as eldritch critters. Also, the 2 spawn treachery would both be Legions of the Dead, which at silver will benefit greatly from the Titan's ability.

After looking at the starting locations on the board, I'm leaning more towards this build of the Titan or the Demon Prince. I like the Spider Queen, and slaggaroth's ability to hunt down weak heroes, but she's so far away from siegable cities (especially key ones like Greyhaven or Riverwatch) that a lieutenant fleeing costs her at least 2 weeks, probably more. The titan also suffers from this somewhat, but makes up for it by being within 2 weeks of multiple places and speeding up his sieges via Thaadd.

Both the Beastman lord and the Titan have humanoids as thier cheap upgrade group. This group has a problem that they are slow without getting any upgrades to speed the way the beasts and eldritch do. This does make them harder to use in dungeons especially.

My vote would be either the Spider Queen for her traps and lt, or the Demon Prince for his lt.

The spider queen is weaker in the dungeons as beasts are probably the least used there. She has good damage output with traps, and with In my Parlour she can chain traps together in nastier ways than you might think. I especially like the ability to hit them whenever you want with a couple of traps that you picked at the beginning of the dungeon just for the parties current weakness. Slaggoroth is also a very nasty lt as with the three master spiders going before he attacks he can stay way in the back and hit everybody that has a web token currently. His attacks do good damage (white, green, yellow and two power dice of the level) plus pierce two when he attacks this way, with a battle action this will hurt, and it can get more than one hero at the same time. This is in addition to all the damage that the traps in your hand will be doing. With both trapmaster and the spider queens power at work all traps do +3 damage and -2 cost, which for non treachery traps means 5-7 points each, with most of the damage not being avoidable and the cost of the traps being mostly negated.

The Demon Prince is stronger in the dungeons as his creatures are eldritch which are probably seen the most there. In addition his lt gets a demon which is a very powerfull monster to deal with in an encounter. This is especially true if you have bought the upgrade that gives them +1 aura and burn. The nasty part here is with danger you can reinforce with another demon (if there is another non master available) and have two soaring creatures with aura on. If they are silver then they also have fear 2 while gold would have fear 3. The fear makes them much harder to hurt for any non ranged/magic hero's as they don't have the power dice to get the surges probably. This makes the lt very dangerous. He also has cheap event treachery and they cost less so there will be a lot of event cards being played all the time.

Overall I think the Spider Queen is stronger on the overland map while the Demon Prince is stronger in dungeons. If it gets to a final battle in the keep, I think that the Demon Prince is stronger by a fairly small margin. The Spider Queen's level is very nasty with the hero's split up. If the OL can get one kill in then there is probably a safe spot to spawn more monsters, which is going to continue the pattern and give a lot of extra conquest before getting the the queen herself.

Good luck on whatever you choose.

Brian

I was wrestling between picking the Titan or the Demon Prince. I think the demon prince is more powerful, but would play pretty similarly to The Sorcerer King in our last campaign. The Titan promised to be fun with spawns and events, as well as a strong overland presence via Thaadd.

The final verdict: The Spider queen

Yeah, I know. WTF?

During the week the heroes were chosen, and they ended up with Lord Hawthorne, Silhouette, Battlemage Jaes, and Vyrekas the Dead. Three out of four will have huge armor. The spider queen's traps ignore that, and I'll still be upgrading skeletons to silver for the pierce. The overland presence isn't as strong, though silver beasts and skeletons should make the lieutenants' troops something to fear. My current (and almost certainly final) purchases are:

Silver Beasts
Silver Eldritch (purchased at the start of the first week)
Lord Merrick
Lady Eliza
Slaggaroth
Focused: Lone Medusa definitely, not sure about the other 3. 1x Gust of Wind and 2x Aim seems likely.
Into My Parlor: Usually filled with 2 Dark Charms
1 Trap Treachery: Dark Charm

I've got 3 xp left over, which I'll be saving to get a spawn treachery to use in lieutenant encounters (legions of the dead output a lot of damage and clog a lot of space). Though siege engines would also be nice, since it means the three Farrows can siege towns while Slaggaroth chases the heros around.

I'll be trying to make sure I've always got 8 handy, so I can grab the Gem of Transport at a moment's notice. I'm sure they'll want to head to the silver legendary area at some point, and having Slaggaroth's Trapmaster nearby would be great. If he's already close enough it could put one of the Farrows there instead.

James McMurray said:

Did you look at Gold beasts instead of Silver Eldritch?
Gold is a good upgrade for Beasts, more so than it is for Eldritch (whose best boost is Silver).
It also gets you from 3 left over to 8 left over faster.
It massively boosts the Lts too.

FWIW we used a houserule that the OL couldn't 'save' any CT so that there was still an early period of semi-blitz much the same way as early bronze. The heroes can't blitz as hard anyway do to the way the Lts come boiling out en masse ready to sack cities.

James McMurray said:

For the cards that you keep in "Into My Parlor", I would actually only keep one dark charm handy as it will force the hero's to constantly unequip weapons, and keep something like poison pits instead. The pits are nasty as it starts at 5 poison damage and if a trapmaster is in play then it is 7 damage. Chain it with a crushing block and you could be doing as much as 10-14 damage on one hero when they move.

Also remember that Slaggorroth's ability lets him move to their location if within 3 trails, it does not require him to fight them when he gets there. It would actually be to his advantage if they are headed for the legendary area to just stay with them. They then have the choice of constantly having his trapmaster in effect on the dungeons, or taking a turn to attack him directly.

I applaud your thought of getting a point of spawn treachery for use in lt encounters, you might want to make it two normal cards though and not the one treachery card. This way they can't get rid of it with wind pact.

Also remember that you do not need to choose the specific treachery cards when you buy the treachery unless you have a house rule going that does require it. Otherwise you choose the treachery at the start of each dungeon or lt encounter.

Brian

I looked at Gold Beasts, and will be getting them eventually, but silver eldritch and silver beasts makes every monster in a lieutenant encounter silver except for two beastmen that one of the guys has. The silver eldritch is also good at dealing damage to this party, as there are 3 out of 4 heroes wearing heavy armor.

The Lone Medusa is too expensive for a sopper spawn, though she's a decent discard. She's not a master (you need a treachery spawn for that) or I'd have kept her in.

I've got 2 Dark Charms in "Into My Parlor" right now.

We just did the first level of our first dungeon (Downward Spiral) and I did practically no damage, though I'm having to overcome Cautious on one of the characters and I wasn't lucky enough to draw the power that lets me draw an extra card. I'm getting slapped around by three cursed items (the copper sword, shield, and staff), and really wishing I'd picked an avatar with cheaper event treachery so I could have Crushing Blow easier. But I know going into it that I was going to suffer some in dungeons, and it'll pick up once I get more threat.

They don't have Wind Pact yet (they had it as an option for the mage, but took Blessing instead). Until they've got it, Legions of the Dead is exactly the same as 2 Skeleton patrols but they all come out at once and it's cheaper to play. I may still use a skeleton patrol and the one that's 2 Dark Priests though, just for the threat the priests can give.