I always like to think of it as an investment. If I'm playing with a new player or casual game I take into account how much does winning matter and how will this help our local group/LGS. I personally don't want to be the one to drive away new players for the sake of winning, especially considering how awesome our LGS is. As for tournaments I usually go with re-dos if it is still the same round and the pieces can be moved back exactly. It's an overgeneralization, but hopefully builds some karma.

This is an interesting topic, especially because I did the opposite and I did agonize over my decision. My opponent had revealed his dial hard turning left. That put his Corran out of arc to shoot my TLT Y-Wing, therefore allowing me to kill his YT-2400 Han. Then, because he could not shoot anyone, my z-95 caused some damage to his Corran, eventually causing him to loose. He claimed that somehow his dial had moved from straight 3 to bank 3. Typically, I would have let him do that maneuver and graciously lost the game. However, my lead in the league was at stake (never have been in the lead), so I decided to keep him to my own standards (I never demand do-overs). This was awkward to say the least. I am still in the lead, but the guilt is killing me!

He claimed that somehow his dial had moved from straight 3 to bank 3.

That's possible, I have a T-70 dial that is a bit loose and tends to slip no matter how careful I am. But there's no way of knowing for sure that his dial really slipped. I mean you could look at the dial and see if it's loose, but even then there's just no way to know for sure.

That's why the rules are clear, and you perform the revealed maneuver. Also consider what the FAQ says about a dial that's between two maneuvers...

If a player reveals a dial that is stuck between two different maneuvers in such a way that it is impossible to determine which maneuver was selected, the player’s opponent chooses which of those two maneuvers that ship will perform.

So even if it was part way between the two, you can pick the one that gives you the biggest advantage if you choose.

I am still in the lead, but the guilt is killing me!

No reason to feel guilt. You played by the rules so the outcome is fair to both sides. If you were the type to request do-overs then there might be a reason. Again I point at the golden rule... and would say that if you request do-overs you really need to offer them.

The thing is, while letting him take what may be the intended maneuver is good sportsmanship, not letting him do it, playing the ball where it lays as it were is not poor sportsmanship. Myself I don't request do-overs and tend to refuse them when offered, so I feel no guilt when I don't offer them myself, although I tend to offer them more often than not.

You didn't do wrong.

You played how games are supposed to be played. A friendly competition between two people with the objective of playing a game and having fun.

Winning because a player got his relative lefts and rights mixed up when looking at his dial isn't winning. Don't let yourself think like that. That's how TFGs are born. And once you start down the TFG path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

Or something.

Winning because a player got his relative lefts and rights mixed up when looking at his dial isn't winning.

Yes it is.

Because based on your logic taking advantage of any mistake the other guy makes means it's not actually a win, which in turn means we might as well roll a couple dice at the start of the match and whoever rolls better wins.

Myself I want to win because I played better than the other person, not just because my dice rolled better.

Because if you can't win due to a mistake, that means the only fair game is one in which everyone plays perfectly... Which is last I checked actually not possible.

That doesn't mean the OP did anything wrong, but that doesn't mean he would of done anything wrong if he made the made the other choice.

My view is if he let you correct a mistake you owe him the same courtesy

Winning because a player got his relative lefts and rights mixed up when looking at his dial isn't winning.

Yes it is.

Because based on your logic taking advantage of any mistake the other guy makes means it's not actually a win, which in turn means we might as well roll a couple dice at the start of the match and whoever rolls better wins.

Myself I want to win because I played better than the other person, not just because my dice rolled better.

Because if you can't win due to a mistake, that means the only fair game is one in which everyone plays perfectly... Which is last I checked actually not possible.

That doesn't mean the OP did anything wrong, but that doesn't mean he would of done anything wrong if he made the made the other choice.

It is possible to have a game where everyone plays perfectly. Those are the games where the dice are mostly responsible for who wins or loses. Now I guess that because of the randomness of the dice there is no such thing as playing perfectly but that is only because the perfect play may randomly change at times when a player has no control over things. This random turn of events can take what could have been a winning position and turn it into one that may be nearly impossible to recover from.

I want to win because I made better choices than my opponent. To me there is a big distinction between making a bad choice (setting your dial incorrectly) and having a mistake of omission (not recovering a shield with R2D2 when there was nothing stopping it) which is how I see skipping over many things without confirmation that skipping them was intentional.

Someone had already said it but while some actions may be seen as great acts of sportsmanship not allowing those acts shouldn't automatically be viewed as poor sportsmanship. There may be times they should be seen as unsportsmanlike but that is probably due to the lead into the act instead of the act itself.

I cannot believe the number of people who believe cheating makes them a better person than someone who follows the rules. News flash. It doesn't. It's a game if you make a mistake be a responsible opponent and live with it. Don't agree to break the rules. Tell the person who suggested that that it is cheating. It's just a game.

In my opinion - the only thing you've done 'wrong' is come here and ***** about it...

Either you, play easy and give your opponent the benefit of the doubt on mistaken moves (or indeed forgotten actions) and the like

OR

You play by the book and make people stick rigidly to the rules

Both are valid approaches to the game (I'm a rigid by the book player out of interest)However, you can't really play one way (and accept your opponent playing that way too) and then regret/moan about it after...

It is possible to have a game where everyone plays perfectly.

I suppose that depends on. Do you consider playing perfectly to play with no mistakes, or to play and make the ideal decision each time?

I want to win because I made better choices than my opponent.

I'd say most people do. That inherently means making fewer mistakes than the other person, and it also can mean capitalizing on the mistakes they do make.

However in the case that the OP brings up, this may or may not of been a poor choice. Sure we can say that it's likely he made a mistake due to being misoriented. But there are plenty of times in which someone has gone right and should of gone left and it wasn't because they were thinking backwards.

Also I content that playing perfectly means not forgetting things like taking a shield with R2-D2, or making other mistakes of omission, and Fly Casual was never intended to be an excuse to fix those mistakes after the fact. Because again it's Fly Casual, not Fly Carelessly.

Playing the game well means making use of your options and abilities, and not expecting the other person to let you fix them after the fact, such as realizing you forgot to take that shield when you start drawing damage cards.

It is not poor sportsmanship to expect someone to play their own list, and remember what they can do with it. It is not Flying Casual to expect the other person to let me fix mistakes I made after the fact.

A win because the other person made a mistake is not tainted. If it were then again we might as well roll a few dice at the start of the game and let them decide, because if mistakes can't be capitalized on regardless of what kind of mistake they are... Then we have effectively made a game that is based on nothing but random chance.

I get wanting to beat someone at their best, but their best pretty much by definition does not include your helping them.

I've always felt like Fly Casual was not about how you play the game.

It's about the attitude you bring to the game. Being calm and respectful to your opponent. Do you not want any mistakes corrected and your opponent disagrees? Talk about it, respect each others opinions, compromise or choose one of the options. Then smile and play X-Wing. Win with humility, or lose with dignity. Fly Casual has little to do with the game itself, and everything to do with your interaction with your opponent.

If I made a move in the wrong direction, and my opponent let me change it, I'd be very grateful. If he politely stated that I must finish that maneuver, I'd respect that.

That is what Fly Casual means to me.

Edit: grammar

Winning because a player got his relative lefts and rights mixed up when looking at his dial isn't winning.

Yes it is.

Because based on your logic taking advantage of any mistake the other guy makes means it's not actually a win, which in turn means we might as well roll a couple dice at the start of the match and whoever rolls better wins.

Myself I want to win because I played better than the other person, not just because my dice rolled better.

Because if you can't win due to a mistake, that means the only fair game is one in which everyone plays perfectly... Which is last I checked actually not possible.

That doesn't mean the OP did anything wrong, but that doesn't mean he would of done anything wrong if he made the made the other choice.

Maybe you're TFG, lol. Just sayin'.

Maybe you're TFG, lol. Just sayin'.

If that means what I think it means... Then maybe that means you're one of the hypocrites who uses Fly Casual as a way to justify the fact that you're a WAAC cheater.

Because it seems clear to me, there are a group of people here who decided to twist Fly Casual in a way to be WAAC cheaters. They use it to browbeat their opponents into letting them break the rules so they can win.

Make no mistake here. Anyone who accuses someone of poor sportsmanship because they play by the rules is not only the worse kind of poor sport, they're also a cheater who is simply looking for yet another way to get away with it.

Hey man. TFG rarely realizes he's TFG. But you already sound like the kind of person I don't want to play if you prioritize winning so highly that you forget the spirit of tabletop gaming.

I'm sure you're not a bad person. You're just... TFG.

I'm sure you're not a bad person. You're just... TFG.

Thanks that's 3 posts of yours I've been able to report now. It's also clear you are in fact one of the WAAC cheaters who wants to use Fly Casual as your means of defending it.

I'd like everyone to look at his posts. Because he is exactly what is wrong with this community. Someone doesn't let him get away with sloppy play and perhaps blatant cheating and he'll start attack you personally as a way to make you let him get away with it.

His behavior is a great example of how not to fly casual.

Hey man. TFG rarely realizes he's TFG. But you already sound like the kind of person I don't want to play if you prioritize winning so highly that you forget the spirit of tabletop gaming.

I'm sure you're not a bad person. You're just... TFG.

You keep calling him "TFG" which happens to be the most non-descriptive insult I've ever seen. (Assuming you mean "That F-ing Guy" (I had to Google it)). What is the point? You're saying you don't like playing strict competitive games, so he's TFG who plays strict competitive games? There are a lot of people like that. It's not for everyone, sure, but why insult those who play the game in a different mindset than you? It just doesn't make sense.

There are a lot of people like that.

I know there's people out there who don't enjoy competition, some find the whole thing so distasteful that it nearly makes them ill. There's nothing really wrong with that, that's why there's co-op games out there.

But what those people should never do is get involved in competitive activities and then try to stop everyone else from being competitive. If you don't like tournaments then don't play them. But then don't try and stop me from playing in them, or stop them from happening.

Edit: If you can't handle a fair and friendly competition, one in which you're expected to play by the rules and accept the consequences of your mistakes, then just stay out of the tournaments. But going to them and expecting people to let you get away with sloppy play is not how a true good sport behaves.

I'm sure you're not a bad person. You're just... TFG.

Thanks that's 3 posts of yours I've been able to report now. It's also clear you are in fact one of the WAAC cheaters who wants to use Fly Casual as your means of defending it.

I'd like everyone to look at his posts. Because he is exactly what is wrong with this community. Someone doesn't let him get away with sloppy play and perhaps blatant cheating and he'll start attack you personally as a way to make you let him get away with it.

His behavior is a great example of how not to fly casual.

You immediately pitch a fit and call me a WAAC cheater because I suggest that games are about sportsmanship and everyone having a good time, but then you cry about me calling you names, lol.

If anybody is an example of the kind of person a community doesn't need, it is you.

One of us has a 2:1 Like to Post ratio. Just sayin', You seem to confuse quantity with quality.

I love it when people start in with the name calling and personal attacks and then get mad when they're called on it.

Because clearly the person who starts with personal attacks has such an amazingly weak argument that they have no place to go but down.

And for that reason now, all your posts will simply be....

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by VaeVictis. View it anyway?

Hey man. TFG rarely realizes he's TFG. But you already sound like the kind of person I don't want to play if you prioritize winning so highly that you forget the spirit of tabletop gaming.

I'm sure you're not a bad person. You're just... TFG.

You keep calling him "TFG" which happens to be the most non-descriptive insult I've ever seen. (Assuming you mean "That F-ing Guy" (I had to Google it)).

Look at the way he acts. Somebody disagreed with him, and he flew into a rage about how "The rules is the rules!" and suggested I'm a "Win At All Costs Cheater" when I suggest that I like playing games where the point is playing a game and ensuring everyone has fun. It's not a stretch to assume that he takes this same childish attitude into games. That's not the kind of person most people want to play with. The dude is in his forties and acting like this, too.

Stick to the topic guys. No reason for any name calling on the forums.

Sadly, this is how we waste the time of the FFG Employees that have to police these threads...

Good points on all aspects of how this could / should have been handled. Personally, I'm not going to take something if I make the mistake even though I offer my opponent the opportunity to correct a mistake. At the end of the day, I have to live with how I flew... not someone else. If I can beat someone by not making mistakes and they didn't either, that is the best kind of win. If I beat someone by not allowing them to fix a mistake, then I will feel bad and it is not the same kind of win in my journal. If I allow them to fix a mistake and they win, great! I played a good opponent that made a mistake but I got to play at a higher level. If I lose and made mistakes... it doesn't really matter what my opponent did, because I was playing against myself to begin with.... not the other guy.

If I beat someone by not allowing them to fix a mistake, then I will feel bad and it is not the same kind of win in my journal.

Nothing wrong with that. I don't agree myself even though I do allow people to fix mistakes myself, but I don't feel like the win is tainted if I don't.

My issue is when people call it poor sportsmanship ship if you don't.

I cannot believe the cheaters are trying to hide behind "sportsmanship". If the game is to difficult following the rules play something else.

I cannot believe the cheaters are trying to hide behind "sportsmanship".

Let's be clear here. Calling someone a poor sport is inherently derogatory, and really the only reason to do so, is to try to modify someone's behavior. You are trying to shame them into behaving differently than they currently are.

Two people may disagree on what a fair and friendly competition is. But as soon as one starts throwing around poor sportsmanship it's because they're trying to make you behave differently.

If someone calls you that because you're following the rules, I think it's fairly clear that you are not the one who is the real problem.

This thread has deteriorated into a stream of moderator requests and is now closed.