Yesterday we continued our second week(2 weeks ago heroes completed dungeon level 1 and 2), going for dungeon level 3.

Dungeon level 1: OL gained 19 CT, heroes gained 6 CT

Dungeon level 2: OL gained 22 CT, heroes gained 9 CT

Starting dungeon level 3, the OL has Evil Genious and Doom in play, with 8 cards in hand and something like 25 curses available. Humanoids are silvermonster, rest is copper. I am playing OL, and hinting that the players can leave the dungeon at any time. This is our second dungeon in RtL, and players are pretty determined never to leave a dungeon(untill this level was completed I guess). Dungeon number 1(Collapsed Collumns) was picked. A long nightmare short: when heroes killed their first master monster(giving them their first loot here :50 silver) OL had gained about 30 CT. Heroes decided to push forward, thinking their bad luck had to change, and gave the OL a total of 67 CT(yes, sixtyseven). Heroes gained something like 1200-1400 coins and 8 CT for this.

Summary for the dungeon: OL 108 CT Heroes : 23 CT and a total of something like 3500-4000 coins

Kill statistics for dungeon 2 is as follow(first level + second level + third level):

Landrec 1+1+5 = 7 deaths => 14 CT

Nanok 2+2+6 = 10 deaths => 40 CT

Greykerr 1+2+3 = 6 deaths => 18 CT

Laurel 2+1+7 = 10 deaths => 30 CT

2 reshuffles for another 6 CT

No doubt, the heroes should have left.....(hopefully they`ve learnt). Comments on this would be appreciated(heros are looking for advices/hints).

Now to my questions.

1. Yes I am overloaded with CTs, but what should I use them for? I can upgrade monsters every week through silver campaign, yet would more liuetenants be more valuable, or maybe even treachery? I have planned for a new liuetenant myself, maybe one ltnt, each of the comming weeks?

2, How can the heroes best "recover"? Should they go for party upgrades(skills, traits, staff of wild) with the money and XP they have, tamalir upgrade or wait for silverweapons? Secret training for copper is impossible.

3. Dungeon 1(collapsed collumn) has a master skelly as dungeonlvlleader, with "crack shot" ability. I as OL declared an attack from adjacent space. From this space Nanok cant taunt, but he can taunt from another space which is adjacent to the attacking monster. Can taunt be used this way? I ruled no since taunt comes after declared attack(and feel pretty confident about it), yet I promised to ask for opinions.

Setting:

OONWOO

OOSWTO

OOOAOO

O = open space. N = Nanoks tauntable space. S = position of attacking Skeleton. A = skeletons first placed crack shot(can this be changed by taunt). T = skeletons targetted hero. W = wall/rubble

In advance thanks for replies.

4. Alternate strategy. Starting a campaign, the heroes enters closest dungeon and picks up everything they can(gold, chests, glyphs, master monsters, levelleaders) and at third level outright loses 600 CT(attacking themselves/letting OL nuke them). This would trigger the Avatars keep. Heroes are allowed one last upgrade(whereas they would spend whatever money they gained for this purpose). This would naturally mean heroes are pretty limited with skills/traits/upgrades, but so would the OL be. Could the heroes defeat the OL with this strategy, just by suiciding the first week?

God, your Heros must be doing something really dumb, to be getting mashed that way. In our game I think I am doing well if I manage to match the Hero's for XP from the dungeons.

They need to be aware of spawn points to block spawning for as long as possible. Pick up money if possible, pick up glyphs (CTs/Feat Cards) and then if its possible get the chests.

Its better to leave than give the OL CT/XP from Kills.

The most important thing however is speed. dont hang about killing all the monsters, do what you need to do Glyphs, money, chest, and get out or on to next level. If you can or have to kill the boss fine.

Note: your alternative strategy the OL will still be playing his OL deck, if he cycles 2 times in the same level they have to flee the dungeon, and to be honest I wouldn't be playing the game with people that would use that tactic anyway, thats not in the spirit of the game.

0) If they didn't learn their lesson, look forward to a short, brutal, and successful career as Overlord.

1) What is your plot? A monster upgrade is good at getting more CT, but you don't really need that right now, so maybe lieutenants and some treachery to protect them?

2) Skills or traits depending on the character. When they're doing that, one person should be shopping to hopefully get some good gear. They need to then slow way down and start blitzing the dungeons, just grabbing loot and xp from the first level (and maybe some from the second if they can get a lot and only lose one hero.

3) Yes, he can taunt. If the monster can target him, it has to. Per the FAQ this includes the Snipers sbility for the overlord, so would extend to the crack shot ability of that leader.

4) They can try, though if you cycle your deck twice in one level they get booted out, which would give you another week to upgrade. If they're slow or seem to want to do that, treachery for Urgency and time slips away might be worthwhile. It's 3 green total, and would make it much more likely they get ousted. You can also simply choose never to attack them. They can kill themselves fairly reliably, but you don't have to help.

Moneseki said:

So you have people stupid enough to determinedly do the absolutely worst thing they can do and throw away/ignore the main advantage the rules give them.
And the same people trying to find a way to rort the system.

Congratulations. Your guys win the prize for the worst group of gamers in history.

Al(most al)l joking aside, the best advice for you is probably find a less stupid group of people to play with.

1. With this group it isn't going to matter what you do.
Generally, with competent heroes you want to invest in some extra Lts and treachery while saving enough to immediately upgrade 1 class of monsters on the first turn of Silver. This is because for the most part, the OL wins the game on the mapboard through either a Tamalir Raze or a Plot victory. These are usually achieved by the actions of your Lts, so the primary purpose for the Ol should be in aiming to make his Lts more difficult for the heroes to face. This is largely done by treachery. This also needs to be balanced with achieving CT gain in dungeons, but you are waaay ahead on that already.

2. Think with their big heads, not with their little heads.
Note that you are actually only at 130 odd CT. They can spend a lot of time messing about before Silver level comes up should they choose, so secret training is not actually impossible.
Really, what they should do is put this campaign down to learning and start again. Or rather than start again, try a variety of things, play with some different styles, do some crazy things just to get some experience before the next campaign,

3. As others have answered, yes.

4. Apart from being almost impossible due to the 2x shuffle = ejection rule in the FAQ, no, it would probably fail miserably. An unupgraded set of heroes with almost entirely shop equipment vs a Diamond Master Avatar? Very little chance I think.

Isn't it amusing how the arrogant often mistake inexperience with stupidity?

Correct. Because the action was foolish does not mean the players were stupid. More, it's a sign of inexperience.

The first time I played RtL with someone, he too went through all 3 levels of the first dungeon, and it was nearly the same story (he had 20 or so XP to my 80 or so). He was complaining that the game is waaaay to weighted in the OL's favor and that it just sucks to play since the OL was killing him about every turn.

We decided to continue the game next session, and he learned to quit dungeons, linger in town an extra week, and pick up some good Copper treasures. This time, not so bad (I think the score was 110 to 65 before we fizzled out and played other games).

The point: it's not stupidity, it's inexperience. The only reason we originally went through all 3 levels of the first dungeon was because we *thought* that was how the game was supposed to be played. We didn't think there were any alternatives. Even I as the Overlord didn't think to suggest fleeing is a good strategy for the Heroes. The whole point is to gain XP and Gold, right? Might as well keep going through this dungeon to get it. Then we recognized strategies to leaving a dungeon early (and read some on BGG) and stocking up properly between dungeons, etc. and it became a much better experience for both sides.

Having said that, your heroes are in a pinch. I would really recommend restarting the campaign, but if they're set on continuing, then they should do the following:
- Stock up between each dungeon (full poition compliment, fully healed)
- Spend a couple weeks at a store getting good treasures before going into the next dungeon
- Try to get a bunch of Green Overland Encounters (easy money)
- From here on out, BLITZ!

They can still control the OL's CT power using the blitzing technique, so blitz the first few dungeons around Tamalir. They should also pick up that traveling Staff, which will help out a lot. Don't worry about any other upgrades for now, just blitz for gold and XP. That will get them caught up, prolly aroudn Silver (and they should *consider* the Legendary dungeon RIGHT BEFORE silver, since it's too late to grab it before the OL upgrades his monsters).

-shnar

I'd probably pass on the Caverns of Thuul at this point. the tons of extra cash is nice, but you have to go through 4 complete dungeon levels to get it, and the OL is already way ahead on XP. A lucky draw could get them levels that they can race through, but they might find themselves hitting places like the one with the prisoners and a demon or dragon to fight. In any case, they'll be facing a fully stocked OL in a 4th level that's really big.

James McMurray said:

He said the players are (not were) pretty insistent on not leaving a dungeon until it is completed.

Levels 1 and 2 scores go down to inexperience, but are still pretty pathetic hero efforts.
Conceding 60+ on a level tells you something.

And yet they are still insistent? There is inexperience and there is downright stupidity.

Okely dokely.

Thanks for all replies. First of all, all involved heroes should be considered inexperienced. They have gone through JitD, apart from that this is their first advanced campaign. I(OL) have been playing with another group(now dead unfortunately) as hero and have picked up some more experience. To my players defence: there are many things to learn.

Mordak: they are normally good to block spawn points. We dont have feat cards(I own JitD, WoD and RtL). Speed I would agree with you to be a problem. Regarding alternate strategy: it does sound boring, yet is it possible to have victory this way?

James McMurray: 1. I`ll stick to the plan with liuetenants/treachery. Seems like a good plan. 2. blitzing strategy will be recommended to them. 3. Grrrr!!. 4. Its not an option now. I was thinking if a newly formed party could win the entire game with this strategy(boring game yes, but could it work?).

Corbon: I agree with McMurray and shnar regarding inexperience over stupidity. Sorry that I didnt inform about the lack of gametime in my first writing. 1. I`ve read several topics/comments regarding OL-victory. Lacking the experience myself, I believe your strategy(lts. + treachery) seems the better over avatar victory. 2. Additional info: this was week 2. Week 1 resulted into 50-60 CT(I dont have the exact number here with me). I am pretty sure secret training copper is lost. 3. More grrrrrr!!. 4. Ops, all avatars are automaticly diamonds? That would be bad for the heroes with shopweapon. Unless they are able to buy Gold weapons from the money they have just earned from the first dungeon.

shnar: Thanks for having faith in my players, and thanks for sharing your story of inexperienced players(I know my players will be happy reading it). I will recommend them to continue their journey for now, if only to learn to blitz and seeing ltn victory(hopefully).

Back to Corbon: I guess they have learnt their lesson, yet it remains to be seen. Again this is their first advanced campaign, and they have no clue how to operate/control the game. Next time, I will advice them to try blitzing, just to see how it works out. Learning by doing isnt that bad. Yes it is pathetic hero efforts, or maybe the OL is just imba....

Aaargh! What the hell are you doing wrong?

Even Nanok fightning alone against the monsters would not result dying so many times.

I am lucky if I manage to kill a hero even once in a dungeon level. On the other hand, we are all quite experienced players . At the moment (silver, half done), heroes have almost double the CT than I do.

Feat cards are a pain for the OL.

The alternate strategy, IMO, probably would not work. First, they'd have to get 600CT by killing themselves before you cycled your deck twice. That's not going to happen, so you'll get at least one more week of upgrades. Second, they'll be facing an overlord with diamond stats with characters who have a lot of copper gear, one skill (or one skill + a Tamalir one for one person). They'll have no increased health or fatigue, none of the multi-attack stuff, and few (if any) dice higher than black. the overlord's one turn will be an avatar upgrade, meaning one of the following:

• Sorcerer King: +100 health. There's no way they're doing over 200 damage (including the SK's mirrors) with copper heroes before the avatar can do 64 damage (if everyone started with 16 health.
• Spider Queen: Spirit Drain is going to let her do damage and hela simultaneously, though the Spider Queen starts off so weak that she may still die.
• Great Wyrm: Ironskin means they can barely nick him with an attack. 8 unpiercable armor is going to be too thick for copper gear.
• Beastman Lord: He's got almost as much armor as the Great Wyrm, and will have 2 clones they have to fight. That means 3 guys running around at an average of around 15 damage per attack.
• The Titan: He's very slow, but kills with one hit and is even harder to kill than the Great Wyrm (13 armor and pierce is reduced by 4).

Since you'll be almost certain to get at least 2 weeks of upgrades instead of one, the fights will be even harder. at the least, upgrading Eldritch to Silver is going to give you a lot of kills on the way to the final battle, meaning a lot of bonus health they'll have to punch through (which is tripled if you're the beastman lord). Alternatively you could use it for Crushing Blow treachery, and destroy 3-5 pieces of their gear on their way through the dungeon. They won't have Wind Pact, so they can't stop you from cherry picking from the new stuff they find.

James McMurray said:

600 CT

I certainly disagree about getting the 600 CT from the first dungeon. Remember, the party WANTS to get to 600, and are actually helping the OL getting there. The first dungeon could result in 3 dungeon levels, meaning the party needs to get to a total of 200 CT at each level. First of all the heroes clear the entire level, robbing it for gold, chest, glyph, monsters and levelmaster. after clearing everything they just start whacking each other. 1. hero enters, positioning himself next to the glyph. the 2. hero goes down with battle, attacking the 1. hero, then moving off the glyph. 3. hero glyphs in with battle. whacking first(if still alive) or second hero, then moves off the glyph. Last hero glyphs in with battle blasting or attacking whatever is left. Next round all starts in temple, maybe one or two remains at the board. Even so, I am pretty sure the heroes can produce an average of 9 CT(each hero worth an average of 3 CT) each round.

How many rounds would they have? Lets say the OL gets "Evil Genious" in play his second round. Before OL reshuffles his deck the first time, the heroes would then have something like 10-15 rounds. Lets say an average of 10 rounds for each reshuffle. It pretty much means the heroes could lose 10 X 9 CT = 90 CT each reshuffle. Since the heroes would enter the portal just before the second reshuffle, they should be able to produce like 180 CT(at least) each level. Multiply this with the 3 levels and the OL has gained at least 540 CT. Heroes would probably have something like glyphs+lvlmasters = 15

In total I`m lacking something like 40-45 CT with this scenario. I believe the heroes can pull the 600 CT from first dungeon off, especialy since my setting is favoring the OL quite alot(Evil Genious in play his second round, only 10 rounds before reshuffle).

Possible? I think so. Cheesy? So definitly.

Avatar fight:

Heroes should have something like 3000-4000 gold, some pots and about 15-20 XP. Part of the money would be spent on shopping(hopefully getting weapons). If lucky heroes could train skill(Mighty would come in handy for damage).

Avatar would have no upgrades but the first 15(from setup) he got.

Passing through the 4 dungeons with shop/copper weapons while all monsters are still copper shouldnt be too much of a problem. The question would naturally how are the heroes going to fight the diamond avatar.....

Titan: 45 HP 9 Armor. Seems impossible due to the 9 armor. Yet, could be possible if heroes get alot of extra hp at the 4 first dungeons and have a good copper weapon.

Great Wyrm: 45 HP 7 Armor Fear 4. Probably impossible. Heroes would need alot of powerpotions just to pass through the fear 4.

Spider Queen: 17 HP 5 Armor. Without checking the spider queen keep, this seems quite doable....

Sorcerer King: 21 HP 6 Armor. Without checking his keep/scenario, this also seems doable

Demon Prince: 45 HP 8 Armor Fear 5, Aura 5. Probably impossible.

If you say that all the players are pretty inexperienced: Let the most inexperienced player be the OL the next advanced campaign and you as the most experienced player play as a hero in the group. And have everyone of your group be the OL for at least once in a "vanilla" dungeon. Then show them the "The Art of Blitz" article on BBG. And then, when they learned how to play, play as the OL again and have way more fun thrashing them.

@ Moneseki: You are missign two points in your calculation:

1) They may make 180 CT in Level 1, but since the deck is almost depleted, they will only have time for one deck (+ a little) in levels 2 and 3. This results in 360 CT maximum, + the 20ish max. they can get from the three levels themselves. Final Battle would never be triggered by that.

2) The OL gets to buy one upgrade before the Final Battle, similar to the final training the heros may buy. Official answer from KW, unfortunately preserved neither in the FAQ, nor in the GLOaQ (am I the only one to remember that one?).

Parathion said:

I remember the OL getting to buy one upgrade as well. It was an official answer from KW on the last forumn, but the transfer to this forumn did not keep most of those answers.

One other point to think about is that the keep would not be copper treasures as the total game CP would be 600 and they would be moved to gold. If the party really wants to do something like this they need to buy a rumor and place it on the way to the Caverns of Thuul. They would then get more cp with the larger bottom level, and hopefully more gold than a regular level. Once they get to the legendary level the game would already be in silver, but the OL would not be able to have bought much as there would only be one chance to upgrade. This would give them 4 levels with silver treasure, plus the market (probably only 2 items there) and all the extra money from the caverns to buy all of the hero's a die upgrade.

Overall the Ol will have bought two upgrades (probably avatar ones given what is going on) and the hero's will have some silver equipment going into the keep while probably fighting copper monsters.

It is still a pretty cheesy way to try a game the system.

Brian

Argur said:

I`ve had a conversation with my friends, and one of them has volunteered for OL services for our next advanced campaign. Hopefully they will not learn too much and making it impossible to trash them.... Thanks for the advice.

Parathion said:

1) You are probably right. I missed that part. Would be interesting to see how it really worked out though, but I am not interested in wasting one of my nights on the experiment. bneumanns advice would probably increase the possibility for it to work. I`ll try it when I come to the old mens home, yet I`ll probably forget how it all worked out.

2)Interesting, thanks.

bneumann said:

Thanks for improving my cheesy tactics, hopefully it will never be tried. Also thanks for confirming the last avatarupgrade.