Ion Torpedoes sure helped... My B-wing is going to be a beast tomorrow.

I literally just did the math. It's not an estimation. Estimation would mean I just guessed. Past PS5, a single PS2 pilot has adjusted the average pilot skill down by 1 in a group of 4 or more players (it starts at PS4 with 3 players), therefore potentially weakening the Imperial deployment draws and the Imperial Elites. For example, if you have three players, 2 at PS6, and 1 at PS2, your average PS is 4.67. If you have 6 players, 5 at PS6, and 1 at PS2, it is still only 5.3.

As an example, if you draw an Elite Interceptor, you've dropped its upgrades down to the PS4+ stat bar, rather than the PS6+ stat bar. It now moves before the five PS6 Rebels and has one less ability. That's what I am getting at. It automatically reduces the difficulty level of the game. In missions where an average PS increases the number, or type of ships being drawn, it potentially reduces that as well.

The game is designed so that once half the group reaches a specific pilot skill, that the average pilot skill of the group goes up to that number. It keeps that first guy getting ahead from skewing the game, but it also means that the difficulty level of the game keeps progressing. One player staying at 2 decreases that rate of increase. In fact, it creates situations down the line where the first player to reach a higher pilot skill can theoretically be playing 2 PS above the average.

In the mission where the Elite Interceptors all show up to hunt the players, it changes the dynamic of that mission from a frantic fight to the death against Interceptors moving second and shooting first as designed, to a mission where the Rebels are potentially able to reposition and arc dodge by moving second.

Staying at PS2 will make it seem harder to you, individually, but in reality it's actually making the missions as a whole easier. Though playing as a Y-Wing decreases that individually perceived difficulty, since the Y-Wing is somewhat less dependent on repositioning because of its turret.

When I say you bump people up to the lowest player's XP total, it's exactly that. They then just buy upgrades with that additional point amount. If you were 2, and had 17 total XP, and you miss a couple missions, and you come back and the lowest player 28 total XP, you now have 28 total XP, with 11 more XP to spend.

I won't fault your math just your method. You don't think artificially boosting a lower skilled pilot to a higher skill and handing over points isn't skewing the game? Huh.

The reason I stayed a PS 2 was because we had some players that didn't get the CO-OP in the game. They went for the PS boost so they could shoot first, getting more XP, so they could get a higher PS ad nauseam. They finished at PS7 but lost the campaign. More than once they chose an easy kill over tactics. The first time I played the Holonet mission it was lost by turn 3. I also got shot down three times. Bad flying? No, trying to save the mission.

If you find these missions easy then you're a better tactician and player than me. Which is fine. But don't tell me that I'm 'borking' the game by following the rules. We turned a guy away that showed up week 4 and wanted to play. He said he'd "just" take a B-Wing. Not going to happen.

You can run your game as you wish and I'll try and run mine as written.

You're... kind of a jerk, aren't you?

Someone wanted to play, and even said, "I really love this ship, can't I start in it?" and you said, "Go play somewhere else, scrub"?

All the ships are based around 26 points to start with at PS2. That means you COULD have let him start with a B-Wing and 4 XP, letting a fan enjoy a different way to play X-Wing, and you didn't because...

Why? Because the fan-written rules are infallible and set in stone, even in version 0.7 ? Remember, we're playtesting these rules, even if they are fairly far along, and new ideas CAN be added.

I can understand not wanting to allow ships that are 'strictly better' like T-70s and E-Wings, but frankly speaking the point of a game is to enjoy playing it with other people, not take pleasure in preventing others from playing the game.

Or I could be wrong, and it was 'That Guy' who's in most stores that everyone hates playing with because he's a card-carrying idiot, and you just picked a way to turn him away that was within the rules of the game. In which case, I would have done the same thing. I'm just glad our local 'That Guy' is obsessed with fire Wizards and Wands of Wonder, and can't really grasp X-Wing.

And you are wrong about how PS skews the oppositional math, too. One low PS can game the system and make the Elite ships much easier to deal with. There should be a rule about a "Floor PS" for longer running campaigns, where you can't upgrade the highest PS past a certain point until the lowest PS has been upgraded - and that newer players who join later get that "Floor PS" for free. This would prevent gaming that system.

We actually experienced that the time-before-last, when the player with the lowest PS had to drop and then we got jumped by the TIE/INs from Chasing Phantoms IV. If he had been there the TIE/INs would have moved after us and it would have been MUCH easier. If he had been there...

I got a answer to my question from Josh, the creator, over at boardgamegeek:

StefanSasse wrote:

Quick question: when you fly a mission in hostile territory, and you win it, do you still to leave the board manually before the end of the last turn?

Yes, you must still jump to hyperspace unless the mission says otherwise (I think the Capture Refueling Station part 3 says something about this).

You're... kind of a jerk, aren't you?

Someone wanted to play, and even said, "I really love this ship, can't I start in it?" and you said, "Go play somewhere else, scrub"?

All the ships are based around 26 points to start with at PS2. That means you COULD have let him start with a B-Wing and 4 XP, letting a fan enjoy a different way to play X-Wing, and you didn't because...

Why? Because the fan-written rules are infallible and set in stone, even in version 0.7 ? Remember, we're playtesting these rules, even if they are fairly far along, and new ideas CAN be added.

I can understand not wanting to allow ships that are 'strictly better' like T-70s and E-Wings, but frankly speaking the point of a game is to enjoy playing it with other people, not take pleasure in preventing others from playing the game.

Or I could be wrong, and it was 'That Guy' who's in most stores that everyone hates playing with because he's a card-carrying idiot, and you just picked a way to turn him away that was within the rules of the game. In which case, I would have done the same thing. I'm just glad our local 'That Guy' is obsessed with fire Wizards and Wands of Wonder, and can't really grasp X-Wing.

And you are wrong about how PS skews the oppositional math, too. One low PS can game the system and make the Elite ships much easier to deal with. There should be a rule about a "Floor PS" for longer running campaigns, where you can't upgrade the highest PS past a certain point until the lowest PS has been upgraded - and that newer players who join later get that "Floor PS" for free. This would prevent gaming that system.

We actually experienced that the time-before-last, when the player with the lowest PS had to drop and then we got jumped by the TIE/INs from Chasing Phantoms IV. If he had been there the TIE/INs would have moved after us and it would have been MUCH easier. If he had been there...

I'm not saying that a low PS pilot doesn't skew the game. I'm saying it's a game, a good one and one or two low PS pilots aren't going to BREAK the game. Yes, it does change how the AI stacks in certain missions. What you don't understand is the squad makeup changed week to week. The guys I started with week 1 weren't the same ones week 2. Or week 3. Do you think that you and 3 other guys, all flying X-Wings, could win every mission? A lot of the younger guys took Xs because "a fighter is better than a bomber" mentality. If I had to guess, of the 16 players that started the early round, better than 1/2 were flying Xs.

The rules aren't infallible and you're free to change them as you wish. But in our case, since prizes were awarded for certain things it sort of made sense to follow the rules. I had two goals. The first was to stay alive. Something I think is important. The second was to win the campaign. I didn't need to have the highest number of kills or the highest PS. I didn't NEED to win any awards. I was there to play the game and beat the Imps. And to have fun.

Because you weren't aware of the situation, I won't take offense for you labeling me as a jerk.

That does sound quite fun, and it was obviously a highly sophisticated setup. I do apologize for calling you a jerk - in context it was the correct thing to do.

Me, I went HWK as soon as possible - my call sign is White Mage and apparently I help the people win. Would have started in one too, but those rules...

I understand why the restriction in the book - too many people sneer at the Y-Wing or the X-Wing without realizing they're actually quite good, and there's a time setting constraint. The dedicated bomber version of the Y-Wing would be awfully handy in our game right now. But right now I'm struggling to find people who actually want to play the game, so turning them away because I won't let them play their favorite ships is actually harmful to the game's success in my FLGS.

I got a answer to my question from Josh, the creator, over at boardgamegeek:

StefanSasse wrote:

Quick question: when you fly a mission in hostile territory, and you win it, do you still to leave the board manually before the end of the last turn?

Yes, you must still jump to hyperspace unless the mission says otherwise (I think the Capture Refueling Station part 3 says something about this).

That makes it very hard to win some of those missions in hostile territory. Better spin up your hyperdrives...

I missed this reading over the rules. I thought that if you won the scenario you were in the clear. Glad you ask the question. I haven't gotten far enough to screw it up. Yet.

You can run your game as you wish and I'll try and run mine as written.

You're taking this too personally. You had just put that bit about you staying artificially low PS in a post about advice for the game to a new player.

It was important to clarify and point out that what you were doing has very specific effects on the way the game plays as written, making it significantly easier, so that the new player understands what will happen if they do the same thing.

We play with different people every time too, which is why we bump up people who miss because people have other real life commitments. The method we use does two things. It improves player experience since everybody is closer in terms of loadouts and abilities, but it also prevents the Average Pilot Skill from dipping down and making the game easier. Our group doesn't get much satisfaction from just "winning". It's the drama of the scenarios. Much of which is lost if the Imperials are easier than they are intended to be. Like I said, the Revenge mission (among others, but that one most dramatically) can be fundamentally altered by doing what you do. It's not illegal, because it's a game and nothing is illegal. But if people are picking up HotAC, it's important they understand what radically varied Pilot Skills does to the game balance. One player intentionally not advancing is making the game easier, and gaming the system for advantage, whether it is intentional or not.

If you were playing "competitively" for prizes, I can see how your way of playing might be preferred. We're just playing for fun. It wouldn't be fun for us if we knew we were gaming the system for advantage. Our way preserves the game balance, and it improves the player experience by not leaving people who have other life obligations to be stuck way behind the two or three of us that make it to every game.

You can run your game as you wish and I'll try and run mine as written.

You're taking this too personally. You had just put that bit about you staying artificially low PS in a post about advice for the game to a new player.

It was important to clarify and point out that what you were doing has very specific effects on the way the game plays as written, making it significantly easier, so that the new player understands what will happen if they do the same thing.

We play with different people every time too, which is why we bump up people who miss because people have other real life commitments. The method we use does two things. It improves player experience since everybody is closer in terms of loadouts and abilities, but it also prevents the Average Pilot Skill from dipping down and making the game easier. Our group doesn't get much satisfaction from just "winning". It's the drama of the scenarios. Much of which is lost if the Imperials are easier than they are intended to be. Like I said, the Revenge mission (among others, but that one most dramatically) can be fundamentally altered by doing what you do. It's not illegal, because it's a game and nothing is illegal. But if people are picking up HotAC, it's important they understand what radically varied Pilot Skills does to the game balance. One player intentionally not advancing is making the game easier, and gaming the system for advantage, whether it is intentional or not.

If you were playing "competitively" for prizes, I can see how your way of playing might be preferred. We're just playing for fun. It wouldn't be fun for us if we knew we were gaming the system for advantage. Our way preserves the game balance, and it improves the player experience by not leaving people who have other life obligations to be stuck way behind the two or three of us that make it to every game.

I don't take things personally, except for the comment about me being "some kind of jerk", but iamafanboy wasn't aware of the situation. The comment about me staying at PS2 wasn't advice it was a comment referencing boosting PS too fast. We had guys jump 5 PS in 6 or 7 missions. That averages 7.14 points per game for 7 missions. Not exceptionally high until you reaiise that they didn't win all their missions. They jumped PS to shoot first. Their idea of bragging rights was in the form of PS boosts and kills not wins. Sometimes they were ill-equipped for a mission. They could dogfight but little else. I wasn't trying to "game" the system. I mentioned it elsewhere that some players had no sense of what CO-OP meant. The prizes weren't announced and awarded until after the 8th mission so nobody knew that was going to happen. It's very frustrating to line up kills only to have them snatched by a higher PS teammate. Then lose the game. They get more points and you have to eject because they couldn't cover your 6.

The guys that put this game together did one heck of a job. The game is balanced for Ys and Xs and seeing guys use T-70s and E-Wings brings me back to the "rush for kills and PS" mentality. This was something that wasn't fun for me. The comment about playing the game as you want came off a little harsh. It wasn't meant to. The 8 week campaign was run by the rules was great and I think the guys are missing out on some aspects of the game when they choose ships other than those listed.

I've started running a campaign with a friend and I won't be staying at PS 2 with my Y. We've been playing X-Wing for over a year. I know if I need my backside covered he'll be there as I will for him. My criticism of your method of boosting a pilot is based on what I think is ond of the most rewarding aspects of the game. The slow march up the skill ladder. That and nothing more.

That does sound quite fun, and it was obviously a highly sophisticated setup. I do apologize for calling you a jerk - in context it was the correct thing to do.

Me, I went HWK as soon as possible - my call sign is White Mage and apparently I help the people win. Would have started in one too, but those rules...

I understand why the restriction in the book - too many people sneer at the Y-Wing or the X-Wing without realizing they're actually quite good, and there's a time setting constraint. The dedicated bomber version of the Y-Wing would be awfully handy in our game right now. But right now I'm struggling to find people who actually want to play the game, so turning them away because I won't let them play their favorite ships is actually harmful to the game's success in my FLGS.

I can understand your position. I think the reason they shy away from using Xs and Ys is they don't get the idea of a co-op game. The me vs them attitude. And the younger pilots want the sportier, hotter model rather than their Dad's Buick. Which is something I understand. The number of threads suggesting "fixes" for the X is awesome but most turn the T-65 into something that is not a T-65.

BTW the guy that was turned away is THAT GUY. But that's not why he was denied. In addition to coming very late to the game we had a couple of young players, with their dads, and when things don't work out like he thinks they should THAT GUY loses a bit of control and decorum goes out the window. He added one or two words to my restricted vocabulary.

No worries about the jerk comment. After you posted it I went and verified that I never explained the situation. And you were right, with the info at hand, to call me a jerk.

A friend is trying to get a HotAC game going starting in June. We're hoping to get some of the kitchen table players to start coming to another FLGS. They have one of THOSE GUYS up there and from what I'm told is responsible for pushing players away. It doesn't matter if it's 40K, X-Wing or another mini game. He knows he's doing it. In one breath he says he doesn't care and in the next he bemoans the fact nobody will play against him. I'm thinking of two nights. One for a small cadre of experienced players and one for the noobs. I'll try and keep the noobs as sheltered as possible from the Cliff Clabens of the x-wing world.

I forgot to mention that the entry fee for our campaign covered the cost of custom maneuver templates, in your choice of colors with your call sign and the rebel logo. Pretty slick.

That's the current situation. I never meant to come off as some kind idiot. My comments were made from my experience in our campaign. It does irk me that guys will change a game before they even play it. But that's me. Getting old enough to dislike change for change sake.

Hopefully you can get enough guys together to start the campaign of yours. They really don't know what they are missing. Good Luck!

Me, I went HWK as soon as possible - my call sign is White Mage and apparently I help the people win. Would have started in one too, but those rules...

What load out do you go with your HWK? I've got a friend that loves HWKs so much we call him Hawk the Slayer (after that bad, old movie). He's been thinking of going that route.

Do you use the illicit? If so, which one?

@Stoneface: That campaign sounds really awesome. I bet I could start something like that at my local store....except I'm too busy trying new things all the time. Did the Trench Run last week.

I'm really excited that I'm going to be trying HotAC for the first time soon. I'm in the process of printing everything off etc. and assembling a team of friends.

One question I had though, was are A-Wings any good? I've seen people in this thread talk about each of the other ships but never the A-Wing. It's my favourite Rebel ship, so I'd like to play as an A-Wing but not if it will handicap the team...

I'm really excited that I'm going to be trying HotAC for the first time soon. I'm in the process of printing everything off etc. and assembling a team of friends.

One question I had though, was are A-Wings any good? I've seen people in this thread talk about each of the other ships but never the A-Wing. It's my favourite Rebel ship, so I'd like to play as an A-Wing but not if it will handicap the team...

A-wing IMO are good for playint cat-and-mouse and kiting AI for friendlys. They don't put out alot on damage so missile and EM early are needed. Just started a new campaign with 2 buddies with each flying 2 ships. I decided to go for 2 A-wings in this one (Y in other campaign).

Right, the damage output is the concern. So, Missiles are good. Don't forget that Extra Munitions is an Upgrade, so you can get it.

You have to wait until PS 4 to be able to switch, though, so you have time to build up. I'm not sure what EPTs to go for, though.

Predator is amazing in HotAC, as most things are low PS. So, the 2 re-rolls is great.

Outmaneuver helps keep the green dice down for the Tie fighters and ensure you get to hit them.

Juke might be good, but they get their Focus too often.

PTL still looks good for the A-wing.

I think you might be able to get the Tie Fighters to chase you around more than the other ships. So, you are the ship that's close enough to draw their attention, but you are able to then turn hard and Boost to get out of their firing arc. It's not the type of thing that gets you XP, but it helps the mission.

Thanks for the quick input guys. As always, damage output is an A-Wing's biggest problem... no surprises there I suppose.

I was thinking prockets + EM for the missiles and first mod slot. Then probably Autothrusters, Stealth Device, Guidance Chips.

For the Elite skills, PTL, Outmaneuver and Juke were on my list as possibles, but also Wired and Ibtisam's ability, which would mean I could reroll any focus result + one blank result for every attack AND every defence provided I use PTL every round to generate the stress. It would also give me some chance of surviving if I need to not clear stress one round.

I'd likely be thinking PTL -> Wired -> Outmaneuver -> Ibtisam and then see what feels the most useful for the last one. Juke is a definite possibility since I wouldn't need to Focus or Target Lock, so Boost and Evade would be the likely actions every turn unless I was launching prockets.

Does this sound sensible? The other option would be to go for Tycho's ability + PTL and Experimental Interface and then others to suit, but I think that build might be weaker while leveling.

I'd probably go with Guidance Chips before Stealth Device. If damage output is hard, then you need to make those hits count. Oh....all zero point upgrades are free without counting. So, go with Guidance Chip right away.

I'm not sure on Auto Thrusters, to be honest. Yes, they are good at R3 and that might be worth it there, but.....that's about it. There aren't turrets to deal with in HotAC like in regular games, so it's not as big an issue. I'm not sure if I would prefer Auto Thrusters, Stealth Device, or Shield Upgrade first.

If it were me, I'd probably go with: Predator -> PTL -> Keyan Farlander

You don't really need PTL until you can change into the A-wing, so go with Predator first. That also will help you once you are in the A-wing. I can see if you wait until you have the points to get to PS 5 and get PTL before you jump into the A-wing as not having PTL in an A-wing is not the best.

Maybe PTL -> Outmaneuver -> Keyan Farlan if you really really want to get PTL and Outmaneuver in there. I do think Predator is good in an A-wing. Use your actions to move around and then you don't need to modify the dice. Or eventually use the Keyan ability. Also, Predator works on the Missiles, as well.

I'm really excited that I'm going to be trying HotAC for the first time soon. I'm in the process of printing everything off etc. and assembling a team of friends.

One question I had though, was are A-Wings any good? I've seen people in this thread talk about each of the other ships but never the A-Wing. It's my favourite Rebel ship, so I'd like to play as an A-Wing but not if it will handicap the team...

IMO the reason the A isn't talked about has little to do with low damage output. I think it's low total health. The Ys and Bs both have 8 HP while the Xs and HWK have 5 native HP. That and they're harder to fly in this game. With the AI pulling random maneuvers, it's not easy to second guess the opponent. If an AI squad is still flying in formation you can end up getting shot at by up to 4 ships.

Me, I went HWK as soon as possible - my call sign is White Mage and apparently I help the people win. Would have started in one too, but those rules...

What load out do you go with your HWK? I've got a friend that loves HWKs so much we call him Hawk the Slayer (after that bad, old movie). He's been thinking of going that route.

Do you use the illicit? If so, which one?

@Stoneface: That campaign sounds really awesome. I bet I could start something like that at my local store....except I'm too busy trying new things all the time. Did the Trench Run last week.

You really should give it a try. You might drag a few new players into the game.

Check the HotAC FAQ. Guidance chips do take up an upgrade slot.

Thanks for the quick input guys. As always, damage output is an A-Wing's biggest problem... no surprises there I suppose.

I was thinking prockets + EM for the missiles and first mod slot. Then probably Autothrusters, Stealth Device, Guidance Chips.

For the Elite skills, PTL, Outmaneuver and Juke were on my list as possibles, but also Wired and Ibtisam's ability, which would mean I could reroll any focus result + one blank result for every attack AND every defence provided I use PTL every round to generate the stress. It would also give me some chance of surviving if I need to not clear stress one round.

I'd likely be thinking PTL -> Wired -> Outmaneuver -> Ibtisam and then see what feels the most useful for the last one. Juke is a definite possibility since I wouldn't need to Focus or Target Lock, so Boost and Evade would be the likely actions every turn unless I was launching prockets.

Does this sound sensible? The other option would be to go for Tycho's ability + PTL and Experimental Interface and then others to suit, but I think that build might be weaker while leveling.

Unless you're playing house rules, you need to re-read the section on Rebel Pilot Abilities. You need to be a PS 8 before buying Tycho's skill.

You really should give it a try. You might drag a few new players into the game.

Yeah, but too much other stuff going on, especially since I started the podcast. Too many missions to play. Too many odd things to test out to then talk about on the podcast.

Want to spend at least one episode on HotAC, but we want to get a few episodes in so we are in the swing of things.

Hey Guys, me and my group are looking to start this for the first time this Friday, what are the N00b pitfalls to avoid (Imp AI is one I understand)

The Group is looking like

X-wing Progression to A-Wing

X-wing poss into B-wing

X-wing all the way

and myself a Y-wing

I'm looking at Ion Turret, to start and Pred early, so pretty much standard, what I'm entertaining is Chewy at PS5 and R5D8 (Repair Droid and R2D2 is no good due to the lack of greens) and doing a "Rebel Regen"

Me, I went HWK as soon as possible - my call sign is White Mage and apparently I help the people win. Would have started in one too, but those rules...

What load out do you go with your HWK? I've got a friend that loves HWKs so much we call him Hawk the Slayer (after that bad, old movie). He's been thinking of going that route.

Do you use the illicit? If so, which one?

@Stoneface: That campaign sounds really awesome. I bet I could start something like that at my local store....except I'm too busy trying new things all the time. Did the Trench Run last week.

The basic build is Recon Specialist and Moldy Crow (to get and keep lots of Focus) with a TLT for consistent damage, and the EPTs are: Roark Garnet (to get a preemptive shot at enemy aces, which hasn't come up a whole lot), Kanan Jarrus (to cripple enemy ship's fire output) and Garven Dreis (so that when I spend Focus with Kanan it goes to mah friendly ships).

The Illicit is the Cloaking Device, which with all those focus tokens has saved my arse multiple times - when a full formation of TIEs put you in arc, rolling 4 Agility dice with 3-5 Focus often means you're untouchable. My mod slots are Engine Upgrade+Shield Upgrade+Shield Upgrade+... not sure what will go in my

Here's the thing, though: Kanan+Moldy Crow+RecSpec is WAAAY too strong. I've spent down tokens to sabotage an entire formation of R1 TIEs - yes, it cost me a stack, but it is super strong to make ships roll 1 attack dice against 3 greens. I think that for HotAC it should probably be rewritten to match Biggs' "Once per round, you may"...

Here's the thing, though: Kanan+Moldy Crow+RecSpec is WAAAY too strong. I've spent down tokens to sabotage an entire formation of R1 TIEs - yes, it cost me a stack, but it is super strong to make ships roll 1 attack dice against 3 greens. I think that for HotAC it should probably be rewritten to match Biggs' "Once per round, you may"...

That's exactly what we are doing in our group. Not that anyone is using it yet, but when listing the new Pilot Skills the Moldy Crow combo came to my mind... and it sounded stupidly broken. The same treatment as Biggs seems good enough.

It almost makes me wish that the HotAC rules were transposed to a wiki format, where people who are actively playing (and trusted) can edit and change them, and various other ships that people might want to play like the K-Wing or Starviper or whatever could be balanced, because it really does seem like the creator just doesn't have time for this any more.

I'm not saying, "Thanks for your hard work, Josh, now *#$! off," but other than odd comments from him I've heard naught about moving to v0.9 or adapting newer material.

Having it in a wiki format would also make it easier to add new player skills and quickly edit/rebalance 'em - basically making it more flexible. Having limited editors also makes sense. It'd also be easier to reference on the fly if you just had to click a link going to "AI Behavior" or "Capture the Officer" rather than hunt through an unbookmarked pdf.

Only problem is, who to edit the durn thing?