Just to add a precision : miss because of and X or miss for not enough range (after trying to use surges to have more range and only for this purpose) are both considered misses and have the same result

-> you cannot use anything else from the dices

On all other cases (hit or enougth range - using surges for it or not) even if you don't do damage of course you can use the surges on powers that can have a result (like recover [fatige] )

Hmm, the rulebook says that a rolled X ignores all other results, no doubt so far. But the rulebook doesn't repeat that when it comes to checking range, but it just says the attack is a miss. To me, that seems that missing from an X, or missing from insufficient range or other abilities (Shadow, Stealthy etc.) are two different things.

Edit: after some googling I believe you are correct. there are a lot of topics about this subject, so the fact that FFG hasn't brought this up in the official errata is just completely mad. I think they should hire some lawyers to write their rules:p

Seriously though, I don't mind having a rule book the size of my SPPS statistics book if that means we (player group/community) can have clear access to the rules.

Yet another rule point I´ve been playing wrong? Come on... this is getting ridiculous.

My hero players have always been able to salvage a surge for writing off a fatigue upon missing a ranged attack due to range.

****!

Yet another rule point I´ve been playing wrong? Come on... this is getting ridiculous.

My hero players have always been able to salvage a surge for writing off a fatigue upon missing a ranged attack due to range.

****!

Disclaimer on the back of the box? 'this game requires an internet connection to play.' The main reason I decided to become active on this forum is that I feel responsible for knowing the rules as I am the game owner. And here we are Indalecio, in a topic about someone who had a question about the re-use of dice, receiving new insights from the community. This is as constructive as it is sad.

*Goes on to play some Love Letter*

The rulesbook doesn't exactly state that you cannot spend surges if the attack is a miss, but it clearly says that getting the X means you must ignore all other results, which I understand as being all the other dices including the surge symbol. Thus you cannot spend surges as they are ignored. That is known to everybody.

Now missing due to range requirements does not have that clause (of ignoring all other results like for getting the X), as you can still increase your range by spending surges. But the rules don't say you are restricted to spending surges to increase range. I find it nowhere on the rules or on the FAQ. Who ruled this differently?

I mean, FFG could have stated: " If the attacker rolls the X, the attack is a miss. If a ranged attack does not roll enough range, including surges spent to increase that range, then this attack is a miss. An attack that is a miss deals no damage, and eventual surges on that attack cannot be spent other than for increasing the range of a ranged attack. "

I feel the same responsability to my players and also the same awkwardness when I have to tell them that we´ve been playing something wrong. Honestly though, I cannot verify every single point of rule beforehand, and some information on the internet cannot be considered as completely reliable anyway.

my sources that may be not the best ones :
http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Descent_Second_Edition_Unofficial_FAQ#toc3

with the initial FFG answer beeing :
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/12149251#12149251

EDIT: "initial" seems not the right word !! ;-)
if FFG members have problems with the rules.... how can we not ?! ;-P

my sources that may be not the best ones :

http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Descent_Second_Edition_Unofficial_FAQ#toc3

with the initial FFG answer beeing :

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/12149251#12149251

Every source that is not rulebook or errata is not a good source:p I don't care who writes a rule on BGG, even if it was the pope, it is on an unofficial forum and in my eyes no different from a houserule. But since FGG apparently reads all these emails (time and time again?) and answers them it is the lesser evil. Perhaps there is an omniscient being somewhere in the universe that knows why they don't put these replies in the errata.

Thanks Felin,

Well it really looks like there has been some confusion around that, but this latest reply from Justin is still very confusing to me.

If FFG means surges can ONLY be spent to increase range until range is attained (and only then other abilities/surges could be spent to do something else), then why not stating it plainly? Nowhere I could find does it say that spending a surge to increase range - and thus making an attack not becoming a miss - as being an exception to the rule. On the contrary, the rules either state that you can spend surges, or not at all. The paragraph stating the possibility to increase range with a surge ability does not mark that ability as being the only one you can play.

Saying that a missed attack cannot spend surges is contradictory with the fact you can use surges to increase range.

I don't think I´m being picky here

Thanks Felin,

Well it really looks like there has been some confusion around that, but this latest reply from Justin is still very confusing to me.

If FFG means surges can ONLY be spent to increase range until range is attained (and only then other abilities/surges could be spent to do something else), then why not stating it plainly? Nowhere I could find does it say that spending a surge to increase range - and thus making an attack not becoming a miss - as being an exception to the rule. On the contrary, the rules either state that you can spend surges, or not at all. The paragraph stating the possibility to increase range wuth a surge ability does not mark that ability as being the only one you can play.

So saying that a missed attack cannot spend surges is contradictory with the fact you can use surges to increase range.

I don't think I´m being picky here

It would seem that the ruling is as following: If you miss for whatever reason (X, not enough range, hero or monster abilities, OL cards, other game effects), you can not spend surges except surges that allow you to convert the miss into a hit at which point you can spend your remaining surges freely. One sentence to rule them all?

Yeah, something like that, although I´d be more than happy to get somebody to rule this officially instead of making something up here.

Seems pretty easy to understand to me.

Not enough range = miss = X (and everything that goes with it)

There are surge abilities you can use after an attack has been concluded and is not a miss (like recovering fatigue) and there are surge abilities you can use while an attack is in progress.

These abilities you can use to turn a possible miss into a hit, like using a surge for extra range

Thats how I understood it. (didn't read the BGG posts btw)

There are surge abilities you can use after an attack has been concluded and is not a miss (like recovering fatigue) and there are surge abilities you can use while an attack is in progress.

These abilities you can use to turn a possible miss into a hit, like using a surge for extra range

I understand that part, but that distinction is nowhere to be found in the rules.

Yeah, something like that, although I´d be more than happy to get somebody to rule this officially instead of making something up here.

My thoughts exactly

Seems pretty easy to understand to me.

Not enough range = miss = X (and everything that goes with it)

There are surge abilities you can use after an attack has been concluded and is not a miss (like recovering fatigue) and there are surge abilities you can use while an attack is in progress.

These abilities you can use to turn a possible miss into a hit, like using a surge for extra range

Thats how I understood it. (didn't read the BGG posts btw)

For me (and lots of others) it is not enough to imply something, but it has to be crystal-clear and then polished ten times. The rules are not clear because they have separate sections for the X and not enough range. And only in the section dedicated to the X do the rules state that all other results are ignored.

Edit: Like a said before, if you decide to make a game with the complexity of Descent you should hire some lawyers. There is nothing wrong with a very dense rulebook, you can make a more comprehensible version, but that needs to be backed up by some source that is not multi-interpretable. And besides having clear rules, you have to assume the people reading it are stupid:p

I concur, as I´ve been called up on some rules points before, where my "common sense" ruling was suddenly challenged by a more or less (although more recent) official ruling. I must say that I also find very easy to categorize abilities or triggers in "groups" and then assume that anything affecting one element of that group must be automatically affecting any other member of the group in the exact same way. That's what I would want to believe ona normal basis, but in this game it has proven to be a dangerous assumption to make.

But sure, Atom's understanding is very plausible, and it covers Shadow as well. My only complaint is that thes rules themselves are not even remotely formulated close to that interpretation.

my sources that may be not the best ones :

http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Descent_Second_Edition_Unofficial_FAQ#toc3

with the initial FFG answer beeing :

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/12149251#12149251

Every source that is not rulebook or errata is not a good source:p I don't care who writes a rule on BGG, even if it was the pope, it is on an unofficial forum and in my eyes no different from a houserule. But since FGG apparently reads all these emails (time and time again?) and answers them it is the lesser evil. Perhaps there is an omniscient being somewhere in the universe that knows why they don't put these replies in the errata.

I used to think like that before... but since I came to Descent (and the like) there is so much points that are not covered by the rules or FAQ, that I prefer to use an un official FAQ (whose answers came after all from FFG) than stay with a point without a clear rule !

Now why these questions that are answered by FFG don't finish in the FAQ is the part I don't understand !

Indeed if some people asks the question.. it's there are something not 100% clear, so why not put it in the FAQ so each of these points became clear ?!??

One good point for FFG .. they are trying to make each game better, the proof IA had a reference guide !!

a pitty they don't apply these good ideas to already existing games ! ... it's only my point of view.. but when I see this thread ( https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/199959-errata-16/ ) it seems I'm not alone ! ;-P

There are surge abilities you can use after an attack has been concluded and is not a miss (like recovering fatigue) and there are surge abilities you can use while an attack is in progress.These abilities you can use to turn a possible miss into a hit, like using a surge for extra range

I understand that part, but that distinction is nowhere to be found in the rules.

This is because whether an attack is or is not a miss is determined at step 3- not step 5.

Ceaser- I get that you don't take what I say as gospel (and you are right not to, I make mistakes like anyone), but have you looked at my glossary? I've done my best to take what is in the rules, errata, and email responses, and formulate certain definitions that can be used to figure out questions like yours. The sections on attacks and surges are really detailed.

If you have a soecific question, I can attempt ro answer using just the rulebook/errata (though in some cases that just isn't possible.)

There are surge abilities you can use after an attack has been concluded and is not a miss (like recovering fatigue) and there are surge abilities you can use while an attack is in progress.These abilities you can use to turn a possible miss into a hit, like using a surge for extra range

I understand that part, but that distinction is nowhere to be found in the rules.

All surges are spent during the attack. No such thing as a surge spent after (there might be some effects that occur after, but those are explicitly marked by "after this attack resolves...")

This is because whether an attack is or is not a miss is determined at step 3- not step 5.

Ceaser- I get that you don't take what I say as gospel (and you are right not to, I make mistakes like anyone), but have you looked at my glossary? I've done my best to take what is in the rules, errata, and email responses, and formulate certain definitions that can be used to figure out questions like yours. The sections on attacks and surges are really detailed.

If you have a soecific question, I can attempt ro answer using just the rulebook/errata (though in some cases that just isn't possible.)

Your glossary is very awesome indeed Zaltyre! No doubt about that! But I think it has been said before, the fact that you had to make this speaks for itself....

It is like buying a car and having to rely on a good neighbour for repairs because the technicians from the manufacturer don't know how to fix the car they built themselves. And yes, you should take that as a compliment:)

The frustration I have lies not with the community or the people that correct me where I am wrong for that matter. If this community did not exist, players from different groups could hardly play together because there would be rule conflicts. Like the birds from Darwin that have the same origin but adapted independently from each other!

And it bugs me to the core of my board gaming heart that FFG does not properly address this. And many people here share that feeling, it has been discussed many times. It truly stains this otherwise great game to the point where people might not buy it, which they totally should because the game is awesome and the community is very helpful!

I feel differently, but I understand where you are coming from. I would be bothered more if answers weren't available via direct communication with FFG. It is true that the individual rules Q/A model doesn't provide a good way to disseminate those answers. I guess I'm (in general) more concerened with the correct answers being known than being readily available from an official source.

I'm glad this game has the community it does- regardless of what FFG does or doesn't do, I think it's accurate to say Descent wouldn't be nearly as enjoyable without the input from the community members. Any2cards' useful links thread is a testament to that.

There are surge abilities you can use after an attack has been concluded and is not a miss (like recovering fatigue) and there are surge abilities you can use while an attack is in progress.These abilities you can use to turn a possible miss into a hit, like using a surge for extra range

All surges are spent during the attack. No such thing as a surge spent after (there might be some effects that occur after, but those are explicitly marked by "after this attack resolves...")

This is because whether an attack is or is not a miss is determined at step 3- not step 5.

Ok, maybe I used the wrong wording, 'after the attack has concluded' should have been something like 'after it is determined that the attack is a hit or a miss'.

Edit: regarding the individual Q/A. I'm just wondering. How hard would it be that instead of just writing an email back, there would be a sticky post in this forum where Kara or whomever posts the question and answer, and they just mail you a link to the individual post in that topic. Then at least everyone could see the answer

Edit: regarding the individual Q/A. I'm just wondering. How hard would it be that instead of just writing an email back, there would be a sticky post in this forum where Kara or whomever posts the question and answer, and they just mail you a link to the individual post in that topic. Then at least everyone could see the answer

I think that would be wonderful, actually. We've got a "Quest Vault" sub forum, a "Rules Questions" sub forum would be quite interesting.

Potential pitfalls I see are:

1) Organization: There would quickly become a large number of threads with duplicate questions. Hopefully the topics would have relevant titles, but how many topics would be just titled "some questions"? There would need to be some sort of guideline for how to title topics (for example, list the name of the ability or figure in question.)

2) Purpose: Would this be a discussion forum? Or would the idea be to just post a question as a topic, and only FFG is expected to respond?

3) Closure: Most rules responses are question, answer, done. There is not a whole lot of back and forth, and this saves FFG a lot of time. In a forum format, it seems like a lot of questions could turn into discussions, and I'm not sure that's something there is always time for. There would need to be a way to mark a topic resolved/closed (unsure if locking it would be a good idea.)

All of these things are pretty standard issues on forums. I would support this format (though it does not solve the issue many have put forward about looking around for answers).

You misunderstood me. Actually, I just meant 1 single topic/thread here on the forum, that was stickied and locked. Only FFG can edit or add posts.

You still ask questions through the form like you always do. but instead of getting an email with the answer, Kara actually creates a new post in that topic/thread, with the question (with maybe a better formulation) and the answer.

Then you just get an email with "Hello, you can find the answer to your question here", where 'here' is a link to a specific post in the topic/thread.

Then every answer is located in one single topic, which everyone has access to and can be easily searched.

Every few months, all the new questions get compiled and added to the official errata document.

That would work, too.

It's always nice to have an extra dice pack, in my play group we have 1 extra pack, and the blue acrylic dices from the game night kit. Still the X is so present during the games that we joke every time we see one, like "welcome to the X-men". If you don't want to use a dice at all due to believing in curses or because you think that is possible that the dice has less mass in the X face, you can always use the mobile app to roll your dices, but that is less fun that actually rolling a real dice.

I like the X on the blue die and think it's a much more elegant design than IA's miss/dodge mechanic.

First of all it makes combat extremely exciting, because there is the chance to fail hard in all attacks (rolling the X) and it's not just "ok 1 damage less". This generall excitement and kind of fear of the dice results is completely absent in IA which imo makes combat in principle much less emtional than in Descent and thus takes a away a good chunk of the emotional feel of the system.

Secondly everyone has the same chance to miss the attacks (minus those who roll no blue die, but more often than not these attacks also have a high chance to only do 1 damage which gets blocked most of the time). The fact that you failed and not your enemy succeeded is often stated to be the downside of Descent's combat system compared to the IA system, but to me the IA system only gets rid of luck-mitigating mechanics that let you reroll your blue die by spending resources (getting certain skills, OL cards, items).

I like the X on the blue die also. It adds uncertainty to the combat and means that risking all on a successful attack remains risky.