What I should have been focusing on (but forgot) is whether or not there is a tactical method of dealing with this: i.e., is it possible to take one of those vassal logs and reverse the outcome of the game given the same historical forces? I think I forgot about that part on like page 2, but anyways, I'd love to hear more input especially against the guys who actually played against clon: were there mistakes you can point to, or was your fate inevitable with your build?

In my case fate was inevitable lol.

This is not to excuse myself, because I did a LOT of errors in that game, including slowing to speed 0 with my Demolisher to avoid collision, but I think one aspect of Clon's list that has been underestimated is the psy-warfare capabilities it is capable of: basically there are ships everywhere, and you know they're gonna be able to move after you, and then before you again to capitalize on your every error, so you make mistakes.

I saw this happen in the Clon vs JJ game to, when JJ was forced to speed down to 0 too to not hit a mine he placed, so I guess I'm not the only one that feels like this.

Anyway, back to the topic, I think it's quite clear by now that while there are some counters to Clon's list, non counter list are gonna have a hard time against it, and that's because his list is not only hitting you with unbelievable amount of damage, not only out activates a "normal" 3 ships list by 2 units, not only generally has first player, but is also extremely manouverable, ensuring he strikes exactly where and when he wants. IMO this is the very definition of a meta shift, because when building a list you now have to account for it or suffer the consequences.

don't have the will to go through the pages, but I take issue with "Being anywhere within that radius before Demo activates is a pretty much guaranteed death for a ship"

yeah, maybe for a cr-90

a single GSD broadside won't even reliably kill Nebulon-Bs taking it in the side-arc

you limit the Demolisher with threat of retaliation. Sure, it can threat longer than even red dice, but it's gotta scurry its small-ship ass over to do it, which makes it very easy to expose if not very well flown

basically, take the black dice on the chin and then murder it. It's potent, but it does cost a medium ship's wage for a small ship's defensive profile

This thread is talking about a specific loadout utilizing last-first activation. I watched it take a 10 hull Motti victory with full shields out between 2nd player activations. Its a threat to basically delete any non-ISD. It will definetely take any small base ship, and more than likely take an AFMK-2 or Vic. Potentially could also take a large based ship, but the rolls begin to factor.

What's the big deal with a ship killing another? With proper execution you can force the ship that's attacked by Demolisher, just as we have for almost a year, and reliably destroy Demolisher after it's double activation. This Demolisher is a 98 point ship. Put a lesser ship in the way of your our over-upgraded mac-daddy, or just keep your beast far in the rear. It's an exchange, Demolisher for something equivalent. Then deal with the raiders as usual.

So how much can we bid before becoming too weak against the whole range of lists were going to face... 20 points?? 30 points??? How low can a clonisher list go before it can't do it's thing... I've seen clon mention he often relies on those raiders to finish the job... if the raiders can no longer pack enough upgrades to reliably finish the job after demolisher is out of the fight, perhaps that is the breaking point of the list???

don't have the will to go through the pages, but I take issue with "Being anywhere within that radius before Demo activates is a pretty much guaranteed death for a ship"

yeah, maybe for a cr-90

a single GSD broadside won't even reliably kill Nebulon-Bs taking it in the side-arc

you limit the Demolisher with threat of retaliation. Sure, it can threat longer than even red dice, but it's gotta scurry its small-ship ass over to do it, which makes it very easy to expose if not very well flown

basically, take the black dice on the chin and then murder it. It's potent, but it does cost a medium ship's wage for a small ship's defensive profile

Try watching the replays or, better yet, assemble the list on your own table top and try it out- I agree, 'tis quite meta-shifting. I frankly didn't see what the big deal was until I watched it in action (i.e. under Clon's usage). Yes, it requires high positioning accuracy, and no, it doesn't fly itself, but if it's in the right hands (as the trail of victims seems can attest!) it's a little more to deal with than the standard Wave I demo builds.

The point of how Clon's using it is you generally never even get to try to even fire at the stupid ship. That's what all the blabber in this thread is about: frankly, other than Rieekan, I don't think there's a very good (i.e. reliable) solution (but that's been said about 19-20 times!) I was hoping to discover a solution OTHER than a sacrificial Rieekan MC30c that doesn't depend on the opponent making a really bad move (i.e. my lame solutions)

Other than Motti ISD's or AP MC80's, there isn't a ship out there than can reliably tank 20+ points of damage- that's the issue here.

don't have the will to go through the pages, but I take issue with "Being anywhere within that radius before Demo activates is a pretty much guaranteed death for a ship"

yeah, maybe for a cr-90

a single GSD broadside won't even reliably kill Nebulon-Bs taking it in the side-arc

you limit the Demolisher with threat of retaliation. Sure, it can threat longer than even red dice, but it's gotta scurry its small-ship ass over to do it, which makes it very easy to expose if not very well flown

basically, take the black dice on the chin and then murder it. It's potent, but it does cost a medium ship's wage for a small ship's defensive profile

I'm glad you ignored the point that was made before - its not a single Glad Broadside... Its Three Attacks before you can Retaliate.

If it were just a Single Glad Broadside, I'd be on the camp of "Drink a Pint of Concrete and Harden Up, Princess..." But, its just not.

You either need to outbid it to 1st player, or know you're going to lose something.

Indeed, make it something disposable, or cheaper than the Built Gladiator, and Erase it afterwards...

But its just it. Its Afterwards... If you are very lucky, and very skilled on Positioning, you might be able to soften it up before its attack run - but its not guaranteed.

Neither is it erasing a ship. Its just likely with its 3 attacks... (One attack after moving while activating last, then 2 attacks activating first)

So you trade a ship for demolisher. Not a huge deal considering you likely have some sort of list left while your opponent has raiders. I'm not looking for any kind of setup that will reliably beat the Clonisher list, that's a waste of time and building your list too narrow, but will settle for 50-50 shot really.

I think it's too early to call a significant meta shift unless we actually start seeing Clonisher lists pop up everywhere. So far I havent seen one.

Also you will only actually have to beat a Clonisher list with certainty if you're entering a bracketed tournament. The WC is the only bracketed tournament I've ever seen.

This is all blown way out of proportion.

I think it's too early to call a significant meta shift unless we actually start seeing Clonisher lists pop up everywhere. So far I havent seen one.

And you remember your a Clone...

I think it's too early to call a significant meta shift unless we actually start seeing Clonisher lists pop up everywhere. So far I havent seen one.

I have been playing a similar build for the past 4-6 weeks.

So I am enjoying the ideas that are coming from this thread.

not much value I can bring to this topic. I do think the value of clons list is being blown slightly out of proportion though. it sounds as though people aren't utilising their objectives correctly or choosing ones which don't benefit them optimally.

Deployment and maneuvering also serves a vital function when considering the tactics used by a demolished operator (or against any fleet really)

I finally decided to read through this thread...

I like the list a lot, and it seems like a real bear to deal with. Props to Clon. But just remember, nothing is impossible, and ultimately, it's a dice game. Despite the Screed manipulation or any other kind in the game, the dice absolutely can burn you.

Thanks for making me be concerned going into my store championship game today.

Played clone's version of Demolisher which varied from mine by using Intel Officer vs Veteran Captain or Wulff and also going with Expanded launchers vs. ACM. I agree EL are worth the extra points and am leaning toward making the switch to the Intel officer. However, I will always prefer Defense Liason when playing Tarkin as the flexibility of all those options is amazing. I cannot recommend enough having usually at least three dial options with often a forth option in the form of a token. With only two dials and being able to pick tarkin's token at the beginning it is a virtual lock for choosing what you want to do. If you have tried it ( have actual experience vs. theoretical) or do try it in the future, please PM me about the results and tell me if you would still use Intel officer in its place when using Tarkin. I am curious if this is not a sure thing (auto include) as I currently think it is. I could certainly be wrong.

Intel Officer is a pretty crucial component of that setup. Assuming ideal conditions, Intel officer assures that your opponent will only be able to brace one of three shots. Seeing as you are reliably putting out 8+ damage from your front arc, that is at least 4 damage that intel officer pushes through. I would say even with tarkin, the marginal increase in flexibility isn't worth it on a two command ship to dump intel for a liason.

Also the only commands you should use most of the time is nav and cf. And Tarkin tokens work fine for nav so you can safely choose cf most of the time

Intel officer assures that your opponent will only be able to brace one of three shots.

Unless you happen to be flying a Nebulon-Freakin' B. Brace that action, baby!

Not that you would survive anyway...

Intel officer assures that your opponent will only be able to brace one of three shots.

Unless you happen to be flying a Nebulon-Freakin' B. Brace that action, baby!

Not that you would survive anyway...

Yeah, I thought about the neb when I wrote that and came to the same conclusion.