Not enough B-wings, you're very unlikely to get him down before he gets in your face and wrecks it. I really like this idea, though, and kind of want to try iterating on it a bit...

The goal isn't killing the Demolisher first, it's killing the demolisher second, hence Defiance, Independence and B-Wings. You set up to kill the Demo on the swing-back. 23 Hit Points (APs) with a Brace and Lando (forced reroll occurs AFTER all offensive dice manipulation) will likely survive the triple tap.

If Clon is better than "me" (Porkins player), and he likely is, him killing the carrier is a very real fear. Like I said, I like the Imperial list better.

The other part of the question: if you're attempting bomber spam, how do you deal with instigator? Avoid? Thankfully, it only works at distance 1, but if you're using a 2 ship list it's pretty trivial for your opponent to run her in and buy an extra turn of pursuit for Demo. I could see this being reason alone for trying for as many bombers as possible as opposed to using heavy hitters.

That's a fair counter-point, DUR! I'd have to see how it plays out. But I'd rather not actually have to play against Clon! (I kid, of course. I should, in theory, be both playing with and against the list to properly know it.)

With the sheer bulk of the MC80, it can do some serious blocking. Between it and a table edge or two, coordinating a close-range assault on your carrier-MC80 could be quite tricky.

I still prefer the OPness of High King Rhymer.

@Dur. Correct. I initally ran 3 Firesprays, Rhymer, supporting heroes but as the final game/others showed if you don't bomb hard enough (running blue or black non-bomber battery dice OR weak bombers Xwings) you will loose. I now run 4FS/Bobba/Rhymer/Dengar. All Bomber dice bar one and it is Black. This will comfortably kill 1 Raider per Turn (in of itself, without Sqaudron command) and ruin a Glad because the attacks are spread out, meaning the defense tokens are highly ineffective. Especially one the 1 redirect a Glad has.

As for non MSU lists with fighters/bombers of their own a Glad II/Demolisher/Ruthless Strategist, VSD Flight Controllers, Raider I, Dengar compliment the tankiness of the the FS nicely. I killed 5 full health Ties/Howlrunner in one activation with Demolisher putting 24 Blue Dice/Ruthless strat triggers/squadron command x3 on 6 Ties.

I didn't argue Conscientous. I'm going to now, because Triz's return post managed to be both condescending and stupid. And I'm a firm believer that if you are going to be aggressively wrong you have to at least also be funny. Also, I didn't get my chance to actually BE hostile.

Trizzo, you literally said I used "an extraordinarily inefficent combo of Sontir, Denagar, Howlrunner". That is copy pasted stuff right there. To which I replied "I take issue with calling my wonderful fighter superiority wing inefficient. They were very efficient against every other list I faced. Other players who had placed more points in bombers watched in horror as their bombers were decimated and my bombers were able to spend the game pounding the target of their choosing. I just wasn't banking on a ship taking out a 10 hull victory between activations when I designed the list."

That's not a strawman. It may be an unnecessary defense of my list, because it took me very far and I love it and I don't appreciate it being maligned for something I see as its strength. But its not a strawman. A strawman would be if I took an argument or idea you did not put forth, and argued against it. I assume you don't know what one is, because you clearly used it wrong when you copied my post and said "Both posts are perfect example of the hyperbole and circlejerk. Somebody has a different opinion, better make up fallacious arguments or strawmen because they can't possible have anything of value to say." I'm also a bit worried you might not know what hyperbole means, as nothing hyperbolic was said in either quoted post. I did use somewhat colorful language when I spoke of my fighters, because its fun. It was not, however, hyperbole.

You say this "And so many strawmen. I fully acknolwedge the inefficencies in a Bomberball. And how didn't I take into account a Gladiator? I run an indentical Gladiator in my Bomberball and I bid for first. The only difference is I run APT. I know how dangerous a Gladiator is. I never stopped running it." I honestly have no clue what on earth you are on about here. No one said you didn't take into account a Gladiator, although in what I have no idea. I would have assumed you were talking about some other arguments that have been made in this thread where that might be relevant, except you link my post and DUR's post. Neither of which make anything resembling that point, and then cite them as examples of stawmen and hyperbole.

@Dur. Correct. I initally ran 3 Firesprays. But as the final game/others showed if you don't bomb hard enough (running blue or black non-bomber battery dice OR weak bombers Xwings) you will loose. I now run 4FS/Bobba/Rhymer/Dengar. All Bomber bar one. This will comfortably kill 1 Raider per Turn and ruin a Glad because the attacks are spread out, meaning the defense tokens are highly ineffective.

Hmm. Leaving poor Dengar uncovered? Seems risky! Still, needs must. And, as you say, those Firesprays aren't awful at dogfighting.

snip

I'm sorry. I didn't realise it was you talking about your own list! I thought you were being sarastic or talking more generally about list building....So i'll take that back and give you a fully appology, a misunderstanding on my part.

Now onto Howlrunner, Sontir, Dengar. Yeah I don't think it's great. Howlrunner gives +1 to only 2 of 7 squads(? if i remember correctly) and Dengar doesn't get his own counter so you don't get the buff twice. Sontirs ability is easily avoided because it's range one. It's all super expensive and Howlrunner/Sontir don't particularly help against ships. I honestly think x2 Aggressor would be stronger for the cost. They have more hull, don't need commands, can Rouge into Rhymer.

@Dur. Correct. I initally ran 3 Firesprays. But as the final game/others showed if you don't bomb hard enough (running blue or black non-bomber battery dice OR weak bombers Xwings) you will loose. I now run 4FS/Bobba/Rhymer/Dengar. All Bomber bar one. This will comfortably kill 1 Raider per Turn and ruin a Glad because the attacks are spread out, meaning the defense tokens are highly ineffective.

Hmm. Leaving poor Dengar uncovered? Seems risky! Still, needs must. And, as you say, those Firesprays aren't awful at dogfighting.

Yes. Position it at the rear and out of range of enemy squadrons. You only need to Intel when you are pinned so I don't leave him out the front initially. Besdies he won't get use from his own ability unless you add an Escort but that dilutes the pool of quality bombers.

this is basaically what i would use

But that being said, wouldn't you just take First Player, Pick Fleet Ambush, and attempt to kill an ISD straight up?

acually, no because Motti ISDs are the only thing in the game (well advanced projector mc80s) that can survive the demolish er triple tap

snip

I'm sorry. I didn't realise it was you talking about your own list! I thought you were being sarastic or talking more generally about list building....So i'll take that back and give you a fully appology, a misunderstanding on my part.

Now onto Howlrunner, Sontir, Dengar. Yeah I don't think it's great. Howlrunner gives +1 to only 2 of 7 squads(? if i remember correctly) and Dengar doesn't get his own counter so you don't get the buff twice. Sontirs ability is easily avoided because it's range one. It's all super expensive and Howlrunner/Sontir don't particularly help against ships. I honestly think x2 Aggressor would be stronger for the cost. They have more hull, don't need commands, can Rouge into Rhymer.

@Dur. Correct. I initally ran 3 Firesprays. But as the final game/others showed if you don't bomb hard enough (running blue or black non-bomber battery dice OR weak bombers Xwings) you will loose. I now run 4FS/Bobba/Rhymer/Dengar. All Bomber bar one. This will comfortably kill 1 Raider per Turn and ruin a Glad because the attacks are spread out, meaning the defense tokens are highly ineffective.

Hmm. Leaving poor Dengar uncovered? Seems risky! Still, needs must. And, as you say, those Firesprays aren't awful at dogfighting.

Yes. Position it at the rear and out of range of enemy squadrons. You only need to Intel when you are pinned so I don't leave him out the front initially. Besdies he won't get use from his own ability unless you add an Escort but that dilutes the pool of quality bombers.

Apology accepted. We are cool. Howlie gave +1 to 3 squadrons. Mithel, Soontir and Dengar.

Trizz and Mag, thank you for resolving your issues like normal adults.

Ironically, Howlrunner is arguably still good with only those 3 +1's. A scatter token is very important!

She might still be tradable for swapping one Firespray for Bobby Cheese (Feta, you see).

OK, I love what Clon did, but the circle jerk has definitely gone on long enough. One sure fire way to knock the Demolisher out of whack is to out bid it. That's not hard or new.

Rieekan, Yavaris, and B-Wings (or H6s) also look like a promising choice. If you stagger your formation to put Yavaris out front to take the hit, you can force Demolisher into some bad choices while still getting good use out of Yavaris thanks to Rieekan. Rieekan's acceptable losses method is probably the best choice if you don't want to outbid Demolisher.

Yes scatter is fantastic, yeah her ability is great but Sontir/Mauler/Howlrunner is very weak vs ships. If you can't bomb MSU quick enough maybe having half of eight squadrons non Bombers is not optimal.

In The Land of the Alpha-Strikers, the Rhymer Man is King

Faction: Galactic Empire

Points: 394/400

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Precision Strike

Defense Objective: Fleet Ambush

Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)

- Admiral Motti ( 24 points)

- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)

- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)

- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)

- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)

8 TIE Bomber Squadrons ( 72 points)

1 Dengar ( 20 points)

2 TIE Advanced Squadrons ( 24 points)

Fleet created with Armada Warlords

Tactics: ENFORCED STERN CHASE (with 2 ISDs. Yes, I know how unthematic and silly this is. Please remove Demolisher from the game FFG etc. etc.)

Threat Range: Long + Range 4 + Medium

Threat Magnitude: 9 Black Bomber; 3 Black Non-Bomber

Vulnerability to 2 Tie Squadron Cover or Instigator: Approximately zero.

P.S. I will continue to add more silly anti-Clon lists as the night proceeds.

*yoink*

OK, I love what Clon did, but the circle jerk has definitely gone on long enough. One sure fire way to knock the Demolisher out of whack is to out bid it. That's not hard or new.

Rieekan, Yavaris, and B-Wings (or H6s) also look like a promising choice. If you stagger your formation to put Yavaris out front to take the hit, you can force Demolisher into some bad choices while still getting good use out of Yavaris thanks to Rieekan. Rieekan's acceptable losses method is probably the best choice if you don't want to outbid Demolisher.

Hey, I'm just having fun! This has driven me to post a bunch of lists and come up with fun names and tactics.

I do think that the Demolisher is too good for what it costs, but it isn't invincible.

Yes scatter is fantastic, yeah her ability is great but Sontir/Mauler/Howlrunner is very weak vs ships. If you can't bomb MSU quick enough maybe having half of eight squadrons non Bombers is not optimal.

It's a hedge. He will dominate against ASF-lighter lists, if he pulled Corrupter (as fun as it may be, it's apparently impractical against Clon's list) for an ISD-1 Carrier, he'd have had a lot better of a time. I think, anyway. I certainly didn't come in second!

I'm not sure to what degree his list had room for this, however.

Edit for Gott:

Also worth noting: you can take Flight Controllers on one of your ISDs (non-flagship, perhaps?)! Boosting your bombers from Black to Blue/Black Antisquadron might be worth it. Where else will you get 5 Blue Anti-Squadron for 6 points? It's a steal, I tell you!

Blissex could have been a good choice for a larger ship...IF his game text was worded differently. As it is, that MC80 is already dead before he can restore that token.

If wishes were fishes and all that...

Blissex could have been a good choice for a larger ship...IF his game text was worded differently. As it is, that MC80 is already dead before he can restore that token.

If wishes were fishes and all that...

MC80s with Advanced Projectors are pretty hard to kill, even with a double activation. 15 shields and 8 hull is a lot to chew through - more than most ISDs (unless they also take APs, though having only one Defensive Retrofit is not as good, considering the popularity of XI7s.)

Still, it's not guaranteed that Demolisher will kill an MC80 with APs.

Turn N: 2 red, 4 black

Turn N+1: 2 red, 4 black + 4 black

(not accounting for any CF)

If you still have your brace after N, it surely dies on N+1 - point is, you'll only get to use it once for 3 attacks.

4...blacks, with Ord Experts, and Screed (who will eat a fickle red to change any bad black to hit/crit)...someone do that math here, but that's regularly 6+ damage. Three times.

Turn N: 2 red, 4 black

Turn N+1: 2 red, 4 black + 4 black

(not accounting for any CF)

If you still have your brace after N, it surely dies on N+1 - point is, you'll only get to use it once for 3 attacks.

4...blacks, with Ord Experts, and Screed (who will eat a fickle red to change any bad black to hit/crit)...someone do that math here, but that's regularly 6+ damage. Three times.

That number moves to 9-11 with a CF

The side arc gets 5-6 regularly

As HERO put best, its not like Demolisher is new. The issue is the same as always - how do you handle it when it is played really well by someone with activation superiority and first turn????

In my opinion, it is too fast to reliably take out before it makes its attack run. Bombers alone may reach it when it is still at extreme range but they aren't going to plink it by themselves. Neither is a couple of red dice here and there.

My best options:

1) Contain it - have your ships offering mutual support so that even if demolisher does take out one ship you can be sure of killing it in return. Sure it hurts, but we are talking a 98 point ship here.

2) To support point 1, have a couple of cheaper ships that can act as a meat shield if necessary. If they are forward of your High Value ship, you can mess up demolishers attack run, ideally preventing it killing anything important. Terrain also assists.

3) Squadrons - especially rogues like firesprays (the best at it) but also YT2400s, which can still go after demolisher and attack it after it moves. Not going to kill it by themselves, but if demo has already lost shields their hits can add up quickly

4) Remember, in the activation superiority and first turn scenario, any ship is almost a demolisher. It just lacks the first strike after moving. That first strike by itself is normally what does the worst of the damage.

Those are some good pieces of advice Ophion. Fighting against an activation advantaged, priority Demolisher requires a very different approach to dealing with.

OK, I love what Clon did, but the circle jerk has definitely gone on long enough. One sure fire way to knock the Demolisher out of whack is to out bid it. That's not hard or new.

Rieekan, Yavaris, and B-Wings (or H6s) also look like a promising choice. If you stagger your formation to put Yavaris out front to take the hit, you can force Demolisher into some bad choices while still getting good use out of Yavaris thanks to Rieekan. Rieekan's acceptable losses method is probably the best choice if you don't want to outbid Demolisher.

What I should have been focusing on (but forgot) is whether or not there is a tactical method of dealing with this: i.e., is it possible to take one of those vassal logs and reverse the outcome of the game given the same historical forces? I think I forgot about that part on like page 2, but anyways, I'd love to hear more input especially against the guys who actually played against clon: were there mistakes you can point to, or was your fate inevitable with your build?

OK, I love what Clon did, but the circle jerk has definitely gone on long enough. One sure fire way to knock the Demolisher out of whack is to out bid it. That's not hard or new.

Rieekan, Yavaris, and B-Wings (or H6s) also look like a promising choice. If you stagger your formation to put Yavaris out front to take the hit, you can force Demolisher into some bad choices while still getting good use out of Yavaris thanks to Rieekan. Rieekan's acceptable losses method is probably the best choice if you don't want to outbid Demolisher.

What I should have been focusing on (but forgot) is whether or not there is a tactical method of dealing with this: i.e., is it possible to take one of those vassal logs and reverse the outcome of the game given the same historical forces? I think I forgot about that part on like page 2, but anyways, I'd love to hear more input especially against the guys who actually played against clon: were there mistakes you can point to, or was your fate inevitable with your build?

Your best bet is to just play more games and take each games' lessons learned into into the next game.

Activations count, they always have. A good player with more activations and getting first player will generally win a game against a good player with less activations. an inexperienced player will not be able to leaver as much advantage from activations and suffer more from having fragil ships. It's why way back when wave one was released everyone thought the rebels had the harder learning curve and why it did not take long before a double vic list would just get eaten alive.

I suspect any two to four ship list is going to suffer if playing the clon list ( or any 5 ship list) being driven by a good player.

I'd love to hear more input especially against the guys who actually played against clon: were there mistakes you can point to, or was your fate inevitable with your build?

I played the game in practice several times before I played Clon, and I've gone back through it once since then. I still don't know what I could have done to win it, given the same lists.

don't have the will to go through the pages, but I take issue with "Being anywhere within that radius before Demo activates is a pretty much guaranteed death for a ship"

yeah, maybe for a cr-90

a single GSD broadside won't even reliably kill Nebulon-Bs taking it in the side-arc

you limit the Demolisher with threat of retaliation. Sure, it can threat longer than even red dice, but it's gotta scurry its small-ship ass over to do it, which makes it very easy to expose if not very well flown

basically, take the black dice on the chin and then murder it. It's potent, but it does cost a medium ship's wage for a small ship's defensive profile