This is what a Clonisher with a dial can do

(For reference, Clonisher being: Gladiator I, Demolisher, Engine Techs, Intel Officer, Expanded Launchers, Ordnance Experts).

The picture below shows every possible position the Clonisher can reach on a dial + activating engine techs.

Note: I turned on range bands of only the middle and left and rightmost Clonishers for clarity. Here are those same Clonishers with close range highlighted in green and the base Clonisher's long range in pink:

So we can see that the threat radius is indeed significantly past long range. Being anywhere within that radius before Demo activates is a pretty much guaranteed death for a ship. So, what can we do? The only thing that outranges this are boosted comms speed 3+ fighters. The power of the Clonisher is that it can reliably destroy whatever wanders into range due to the move shoot ability/last-first activation (with screed/ ord exp/exp launchers).

Just thinking out loud here. With the dial/engine techs, it's very difficult to force this ship to end up in a ship's long or medium arc (to prevent that punishing initial black dice barrage). Even if you do manage that, you are fairly unlikely to cripple the Clonisher in that brief window without massing multiple ships' worth of firepower (and if you're clustering ships like that, it's even easier to use the navigate/enigine techs to avoid that range).

I guess I'm trying to brainstorm here what to do.

Clon is quite literally the Armada Boogeyman at this point.

I guess I'm trying to brainstorm here what to do.

I have no doubt that, on Sunday, I'll come up against a CopyClon list...

... and I'll have 5 Victory Class SDs on my side of the Board...

So really, I'll be playing "Chase the Raiders"...

Being anywhere within that radius before Demo activates is a pretty much guaranteed death for a ship.

This feels hyperbolic. Any ship? Really? Even large ships?

Letsee... Maxing out attack damage the Demosliher is throwing 14 damage, I figure. With Reds and Blacks capable of two damage each and you throw in concentrate fire, that's five black dice and two reds. Ordnance experts can help you bowl for that much damage, and screed can guarantee 2 out of the hit-crit, but is that the average? Taking concentrate fire will prevent you from using engine techs for the double ram as well, else that number is 12.

Intel officer will obviously be targeting your brace. So unless you eat the 12 damage, you can cut that number down to 7. Not pretty, but it isn't 14. And this is the most ideal roll possible out of this ship, where every dice facing is the most critical result.

A ship can survive that, but you're also dealing with suicidal Raiders. Fortunately they can't roll up and attack on turn one like the Demolisher can, so you have the rest of your activations to try punching the Demolisher out or setting up for it's (likely) first turn to finish off your ship, if it hasn't killed it already.

I have two thoughts to try countering the Demolisher. The first comes from one of our local players when we tested my variant of Clon's list, and that is to find an exact position on setup such that a Demolisher, going in a straight line, either ends just out of range of two turns of Engine tech moving or on the first move ends up in the range of your guns. When my version was beat, it was against a conga line that had set up in a fashion where I wasn't in close range when I finished my activation and had to suffer several attacks getting into range. This list was flying into the corner of the board edge, and had the room to turn. If the ships are spaced out enough the middle ship could turn enough to get the inside arc on whatever is trying to block the lead ship and finish that off.

The second is to build your ships so that you can tank whatever the Demolisher can do to you, and then have some room for response. Your best ship should probably take Wallex onboard (for the Rebels), such that when you have to burn Brace you can get it back when you activate (at least). Since there isn't an XI7 anywhere in Clon's list, Advanced Projectors is a great thing to take to distribute the damage across different facing arcs. If you can get your targeted ship in such a way that it lives (Even at one hit point) into the next turn, you have to do as much damage as you can on your way out to make that Demolisher pay for taking out your tankiest ship. The rest of his force is made up of Raiders, which explode rather easily if you have accuracy in there.

Clon's list is revenge of the Demolisher, which people I guess forgot about with the new hotness of the Imperial and trying to get the Raider to work. But we're probably forgetting the boogyman list that we were all concerned about right before this: Ackbar. Take an Ackbar and Home One build. You get the extra firepower to out-range any mis-played Gladiators, and Home One gives the ships free accuracies and spend their turbolasers on something else, like XI7s or XX-9s.

The Demolisher also has only five hitpoints. If you have Dodonna and some shield bypassers like Luke and APTs, that could be a line of thought worth following, surely?

Letsee... Maxing out attack damage the Demosliher is throwing 14 damage, I figure. With Reds and Blacks capable of two damage each and you throw in concentrate fire, that's five black dice and two reds. Ordnance experts can help you bowl for that much damage, and screed can guarantee 2 out of the hit-crit, but is that the average? Taking concentrate fire will prevent you from using engine techs for the double ram as well, else that number is 12.

As a lot of the baseline assumptions are not stated - did you factor into the equation that it fires three times?

That's the point of it in its case... It moves last, shoots after moving, dealing damage to one face once... So if it intels the Brace away then.

Then it activates first, laying that same damage into the same arc - with or without a brace - if you didn't use it before, you're probably using it now...

Then "after moving", it can do it again - and if its already burned Redirects, Braces, and all manner of stuff, it might just hit a "decent" arc with enough damage to punch through remaining shields and finish you off. Or it could just be Double-Arcing you in preparation for a Ram, and put all 3 shots (2 from front, 1 from side) all into the one arc...

That's Scary.

Even if you're a large ship.

....

So, let's look at it from this point of view...

He rocks up and throws his front arc. Its turn 2, so he's got a Banked Nav-Token for the Engine Techs, but he's got a ConFire Dial...

Worst case scenario, he throws an Acc and a Hit out of the Reds, and 8 damage out of the Blacks.

If you have ECM, you can Brace it down to 5 (and lose your Brace due to Intel Officer), which leaves you the prospect of redirecting 3 of that Damage to a Side Shield... So you do that. You front is now at 2 and your Portside is at 0 and your Starboard at 3.

He then activates again, throwing the same sort of dice down the field, and you end up with 8 damage... You don't have a Brace Now, and his Intel hits a Redirect... You furiously redirect 3 more damage to the other side shield, taking 5 on the Nose, losing 2 there, and suffering 3 Damage to the Hull, one of which is Probably Critical...

You now have no shields to redirect to, and he's got a 4-black Dice attack from a Side arc to hit you with... You have, what, 8 damage left on the Hull at this point?

And you're taking 2 damage from a double Ram at some point... So if he can roll 6 damage on 4 Black Dice. Your'e Dead. And that's if you're an (admittedly, Non-Motti) ISD-II with ECMs.

If you don't have ECMs, then you're probably dead-er.

With apologies to The Graduate:

Mr. McGuire: I just want to say one word to you. Just one word.

Benjamin: Yes, sir.

Mr. McGuire: Are you listening?

Benjamin: Yes, I am.

Mr. McGuire: Rieekan.

Mr. McGuire: Rieekan.

... at which point, you were an MC80 with ECMs, we'll say... The above Math ends up about the same, but hey, congrats, you're alive until the end of the Turn.

Hope you can kill him and then mop up everything else with everything else, but it was still a fairly efficient points trade to throw a 93-odd point Demolisher to kill a minimum 113pt MC80...

I think the trick is to be both valuable and yet inexpensive and efficient... I feel you're going to lose something - just make it a cheap something, and then deal with everything else afterwards...

But again, this was some very hardcore Spitball maths... Kids, don't let your Math Teacher said it was okay to do Math that way. Its not.

** I also wilfully admit that I'm making far too many assumptions here to call this any manner of scientific. Its just supposed to play into the threat generation assessment.

Don't panic about it, but also, don't underestimate it. Be prepared for it.

Mr. McGuire: Rieekan.

... at which point, you were an MC80 with ECMs, we'll say... The above Math ends up about the same, but hey, congrats, you're alive until the end of the Turn.

Hope you can kill him and then mop up everything else with everything else, but it was still a fairly efficient points trade to throw a 93-odd point Demolisher to kill a minimum 113pt MC80...

I think the trick is to be both valuable and yet inexpensive and efficient... I feel you're going to lose something - just make it a cheap something, and then deal with everything else afterwards...

But again, this was some very hardcore Spitball maths... Kids, don't let your Math Teacher said it was okay to do Math that way. Its not.

Why would you use an MC80 with Rieekan?

MC30 is the proper tool for this.

Mr. McGuire: Rieekan.

... at which point, you were an MC80 with ECMs, we'll say... The above Math ends up about the same, but hey, congrats, you're alive until the end of the Turn.

Hope you can kill him and then mop up everything else with everything else, but it was still a fairly efficient points trade to throw a 93-odd point Demolisher to kill a minimum 113pt MC80...

I think the trick is to be both valuable and yet inexpensive and efficient... I feel you're going to lose something - just make it a cheap something, and then deal with everything else afterwards...

But again, this was some very hardcore Spitball maths... Kids, don't let your Math Teacher said it was okay to do Math that way. Its not.

Why would you use an MC80 with Rieekan?

MC30 is the proper tool for this.

Because I picked the "even a Large Ship" response.

I'm not disputing there is better, but I was looking at a worst case scenario for taking damage.

That is one of the assumptions I made based on the previous response.

The other difficult part of it is, you can't neccessarily dictate what Demolisher will kill. It, by virtue of some amount of late deployment, lets it narrow the field. Not control it completely, but certainly narrow it.

I love how Clontroper's response is basically "muah-hahahaha"

Ok this is really getting out of hand and has derailed the entire forum.

5 Bombers, preferablly Firesprays + Rhymer, you have 10 Blue on first turn squadron phase. MSU can't stand up to this regardless of first or second. The so called "bomber" list in the last game of Vassal wasn't. It sub optimal bombers at best with an extraordinarily inefficent combo of Sontir, Denagar, Howlrunner. Non of which could punish Raiders/Glads.

Yes the Glad has range. This is know. Glads also failed to win Worlds to non bomber squadrons in a meta in which they were arguably more powerful (yes it was built different). It comes down to blocking the Glad, Bombing the Glad, trading an equivalent throwaway ship for the glad, not flying into Black dice range and using your longer range batteries as you force them to chase.

I love how Clontroper's response is basically "muah-hahahaha"

I love how Demolisher + Engine Techs + Expanded Launchers is suddenly new or something.

?????????

Ok this is really getting out of hand and has derailed the entire forum.

5 Bombers, preferablly Firesprays + Rhymer, you have 10 Blue on first turn squadron phase. MSU can't stand up to this regardless of first or second. The so called "bomber" list in the last game of Vassal wasn't. It sub optimal bombers at best with an extraordinarily inefficent combo of Sontir, Denagar, Howlrunner. Non of which could punish Raiders/Glads.

Yes the Glad has range. This is know. Glads also failed to win Worlds to non bomber squadrons in a meta in which they were arguably more powerful (yes it was built different). It comes down to blocking the Glad, Bombing the Glad, trading an equivalent throwaway ship for the glad, not flying into Black dice range and using your longer range batteries as you force them to chase.

Edit: actually, on further review, it's actually pretty unlikely that they'd have gotten the alpha on Demo. 4 Firesprays are putting out 8 damage max, probably 6. Brace one shot puts you at 5, redirect another, and a full round of Firesprays won't even burn a defense token to get no damage on the hull. Disregarding the evade, which may or may not help, but will apply at medium range. Rhymer won't shoot that first round, because you'd have to activate him to get his shot and if you activate him Demo will still be out of range at that point because he out-activates you. Then Instigator and the two TIEs will be on your squadrons, while Demo sidles on by.

I thought since the beginning of the game we've been worrying about pesky demolishers. Throw squads at it's face. Didn't someone win worlds or something with A wings or something...something...dark side? Granted it's a truly powerful and scary build that requires very high skill and some brilliant admiralling. But I dunno if it's the Armada-pocalypse.

Ok this is really getting out of hand and has derailed the entire forum.

5 Bombers, preferablly Firesprays + Rhymer, you have 10 Blue on first turn squadron phase. MSU can't stand up to this regardless of first or second. The so called "bomber" list in the last game of Vassal wasn't. It sub optimal bombers at best with an extraordinarily inefficent combo of Sontir, Denagar, Howlrunner. Non of which could punish Raiders/Glads.

Yes the Glad has range. This is know. Glads also failed to win Worlds to non bomber squadrons in a meta in which they were arguably more powerful (yes it was built different). It comes down to blocking the Glad, Bombing the Glad, trading an equivalent throwaway ship for the glad, not flying into Black dice range and using your longer range batteries as you force them to chase.

There's a reason none of the 3-4 Firespray + Rhymer lists made it into that final. Sure they might (might) get the alpha strike on Demo, but they'll get torn up against anything with a decent fighter screen.

I agree. I think this build highlights a lot of the weaknesses of the fireball. Well said.

I thought since the beginning of the game we've been worrying about pesky demolishers. Throw squads at it's face. Didn't someone win worlds or something with A wings or something...something...dark side? Granted it's a truly powerful and scary build that requires very high skill and some brilliant admiralling. But I dunno if it's the Armada-pocalypse.

The trick is, Demolisher, on its own, isn't horrid...

Its the combination of Demolisher, with the fact that, for the first time ever, the Imperials have a small ship to pour on activations with it, to ensure that last-first double tap.

Previously, you only had the Victory or other Gladiators to pair it with, and it was more difficult for that.

Oh yeah- there are 4 raiders ready to also blow you up flying around on the table.

Just to be clear here to the other posters: I think we're all on the same team here (i.e. the entire world vs Clontroper).

Tanking it seems to me like as bad of a solution as possible, only slightly above letting one of your ships go kaboom before Zombie attack. However, I will say that both of those solutions is better than not being able to do anything (like the World Cup replays show).

BTW those 10 blue on the first turn squadron phase won't get Clony before it rips apart one of your (few) ships. Also, if he ET's on turn 1 and 2 your bomber wing has been left in the dust, which moreover has been occupied most probably by instigator to guarantee that even more.

Now 7 firesprays.... that might give you some options

My own initial thoughts were leaning towards a MC80 + exp hangars + token to do a 6 scuurg alpha strike (6 blue, 6 black bomber dice) that can be counted on to knock out Clonisher at least somewhat reliably without gaming activations/underbidding/committing Rieekan sepuku, but that's really dependent on whoever's flying Clonisher to basically walk up into it. The activation control of the raiders and ET's are what allow Clonisher to skirt that- you have so much control over position with that setup it's very difficult to use typical arc trapping tactics.

As to this getting out of hand: watch those replays and tell me about it

Ok this is really getting out of hand and has derailed the entire forum.

5 Bombers, preferablly Firesprays + Rhymer, you have 10 Blue on first turn squadron phase. MSU can't stand up to this regardless of first or second. The so called "bomber" list in the last game of Vassal wasn't. It sub optimal bombers at best with an extraordinarily inefficent combo of Sontir, Denagar, Howlrunner. Non of which could punish Raiders/Glads.

Yes the Glad has range. This is know. Glads also failed to win Worlds to non bomber squadrons in a meta in which they were arguably more powerful (yes it was built different). It comes down to blocking the Glad, Bombing the Glad, trading an equivalent throwaway ship for the glad, not flying into Black dice range and using your longer range batteries as you force them to chase.

There's a reason none of the 3-4 Firespray + Rhymer lists made it into that final. Sure they might (might) get the alpha strike on Demo, but they'll get torn up against anything with a decent fighter screen.

What constitues a decent 'fighter screen'. 5 Firesprays, Dengar, Rhymer for 39 hull, Glad II, Flight Controllers, Raider should have no issues with any 'decent' fighter screen. Unless they overinvested in anti squadrons, which is probablly to their detriment.

This Glad combo has always been known. There were two typical builds pre Wave 2. Non gen con. Glad I, ACM, Intel, Engine Techs, Demo. GenCon special VSD, Glad Demo ACM, Glad ACM, Glad, they GSSpecial did the same thing, 9 point bid, go first, more activcations, double activation demolisher, sound familiar? Prior games have shown lists like these reliably loose to bombers. Clon hardly faced a refined bomber. So why are we derailing the whole forum? Why is the notion that a list is "invincible" taken seriously? I love that Raiders got up. I love MSU Imps winning. I love a game rewarding a good player. But the circlejerk has gone on a little long now.

I thought since the beginning of the game we've been worrying about pesky demolishers. Throw squads at it's face. Didn't someone win worlds or something with A wings or something...something...dark side? Granted it's a truly powerful and scary build that requires very high skill and some brilliant admiralling. But I dunno if it's the Armada-pocalypse.

The trick is, Demolisher, on its own, isn't horrid...

Its the combination of Demolisher, with the fact that, for the first time ever, the Imperials have a small ship to pour on activations with it, to ensure that last-first double tap.

Previously, you only had the Victory or other Gladiators to pair it with, and it was more difficult for that.

That's a great point. You can leverage activations like never before as imperials

I think with Rieekan you can start plotting to try to take the Demolisher with you. Say you park an MC30 as a sacrificial lamb but double arc the Glad. Sure the MC30 is toast, but could you possibly kill it in return? Say double arc with Ordnance Experts and APTs or XX-9s/XI7s, or both?

Yeah, the Demolisher is going to get those three attacks if it is the first ship activated on the next turn. The first attack will come from Demolisher moving last to get in the most optimal position for the first attack on the next turn. The next two come from when the Demolisher naturally activates on the next turn, and if it double-arcs the ship it's trying to kill.

So... if surviving the dicepocolypse out of the Demolisher is not possible what about catching it at an awkward activation distance and hitting it at long range a few times? Apart from the Demolisher the rest of the list are Raiders, and unlike the GSD they don't have the disgusting move-fire nor the hit points to really take a hit, and their side arcs are weak. Build each of your ships to try punching out Raiders, and stick your Admiral on an evasive ship (incentivizing the clonlist player to either go after one of the regular joes or the Admiral on the flagship).

Frankly I don't mind this "community vs one list", because we all want the game to be balanced. NONE of us want to see that one list trump everything that is sent against it with no hope, which is why we also came down on Ackbar just before all of this. It's a puzzle certainly.

I am no expert but I wonder if independence could have some sway to help. I mean 4-6 B wings positioned in a decent manner could get some serious work done. I love independence and have seen a lot of very surprised very worried looks across the table from me when they see their attack lanes cut off by B wings.

I am no expert but I wonder if independence could have some sway to help. I mean 4-6 B wings positioned in a decent manner could get some serious work done. I love independence and have seen a lot of very surprised very worried looks across the table from me when they see their attack lanes cut off by B wings.

By this I mean. He is hoping to fly in pattern A to get to ship X, B wings cut off that route and if he tries it they will kersplode him, if he switches to flight pattern B maybe you have some other ships set up to blow him up. or it really twists his plans. Kinda like how packs of dogs circle and cage a more powerful prey. Back him into where he can't instagib something and then maybe have a shot?

I love how Clontroper's response is basically "muah-hahahaha"

I love how Demolisher + Engine Techs + Expanded Launchers is suddenly new or something.

?????????

To be fair, I've been bitching about Demolisher since my first game of Armada in like June.