1 - Like some (maybe many?), in the past, I've been bothered by the tournament format and scoring in Armada. I mean "W-L-T" makes sense to all of us. But hear me out...

At a premium event (say Worlds), you could have 4 Rounds on Day 1, a 5th Round on Day 2 (cut to 8) and 3 more Rounds of Single-Elimination Playoffs. It would be a marathon crowning an undisputed Champion.

As we are in the thick of the Store Championships, in a 3-Round Sprint, match-ups are probably a huge factor in determining the champion. In the past, BlairBerg (I think he/she coined the triangle that No Squadrons beats Some Squadrons beats All Squadrons (really All Bombers) beats No Squadrons, etc; however, I would argue, it's really the classic MtG and Hearthstone analogy of Aggro vs. MidControl vs Control now.)

The scoring format is what makes Armada unique. On any given day, any list can win! I also believe, much like the World Series of Poker, the elite players will likely finish in the Top 16 of the marquee events like Daniel Negreanu.

Personally, I'd rather argue over all kinds of lists than a few "Power" Lists. Additionally, while I do enjoy playing games, there can be something said in players having down time after competition to have discussions about games, socialize, and just relax and have fun!

Which leads to...

2) Thank you CloneTroper5...

Whether you agree or disagree with its invincibility (see other thread on the forums), you have to give props for what CloneTroper5 has done to the current state of Armada. He's helped people to start thinking of different/crazy builds. Tired of no Wave 3 news... well, there are many combinations of ships/squadrons that may be competitively viable. Have you tried them all? Hey, have you tried a 10 X-Wing build? With skill and luck, it may win a Store Championship!

Which leads to...

3) Is the "Demolisher" OP'ed?

It's either your Best Friend or your Worst Enemy... or both! Let's think of a world WITHOUT Demolisher... would we be arguing over going First or Second? Would Rebel gunlines (maybe Ackbar Slash lists?) be all the rage... and we'd be all playing boring toilet bowl matches?

When you take a step back, lists have won without Demolisher and lists have won with Demolisher... I would argue that the Demolisher has led to many discussions which have added to our enjoyment of the game (e.g., I don't get to play that many games, but I get a lot of enjoyment thinking/reading about Armada). It's a piece that helps make the game engaging for both players.

4) Lastly, I think Admirals are like Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat characters... some our Top Tier, some are easily mastered, some may be underpowerd... but, from what I've seen, some of us are really attached to our Admirals! Hey, it would get pretty boring if everyone picked Ryu/Ken or Sub-Zero/Scorpion all the time!

2) Thank you CloneTroper5...

your welcome!!

I really am glad that Clon's build helped call into question some assumptions about the game. There are indeed a WHOLE lot of things to try beyond "AFmkII Nascar" and the fact that the mean raiders features :gasp: "useless raiders" is awesome.

I like this game more and more- I like how Jonathan Reining F'd up your GCS list (no offense intended!) at worlds. I personally can't wait to see what ends up dethroning Clon's list and causing a similar mass hysteria.

It's given me inspiration to keep working on my own weird lists/tactics to see just how far its possible to screw with the status quo.

I like this game more and more- I like how Jonathan Reining F'd up your GCS list (no offense intended!) at worlds. I personally can't wait to see what ends up dethroning Clon's list and causing a similar mass hysteria.

I got to watch Jon's interview and I believe he said something about the anti-meta.

(As more and more Waves come out, I think it's gonna be super hard to define the meta and consequently the anti-meta... it really will be "up for grabs.")

That being said, no offense taken, I didn't go to Worlds and I didn't command the fleet against him. ;-D

However, I think what I wrote back then still applies to list-building and general strategy.

Awww... And I thought this was going to be about faking the pants off of your opponent. Can't tell you how many times I've changed speed erratically and that led to some ships ending in a pileup or went a direction that made little sense in order to throw someone off.

Awww... And I thought this was going to be about faking the pants off of your opponent. Can't tell you how many times I've changed speed erratically and that led to some ships ending in a pileup or went a direction that made little sense in order to throw someone off.

Well, in this context, I bet someone can write an article about Ozzel!

That being said, my 1st time flying Rebels in a competitive format... I tried to do the Ackbar Slash (with Home One w/Engine Techs + 2 Guppys)... the bluff did not go too well... in retrospect, the conga-line appears to be a stronger way of navigating.

Hey! My Dodonna the Oppressor list wins things too you know!

Not everything is about Ackbar and Mon Mothma. . .

I think our triangle is more complex... it's really kind of a multidimensional n-shape surface where the exact balance points change on a tournament by tournament basis. Okay, that's probably not understandable in English. Let me try again...

I agree with much of what Mr. Qube said. I think if you are trying to understand the meta, you have to consider the following points as keys:

What are the strongest pieces that power key lists, and how do you deal with them?

• Demolisher (as this is really the engine that makes Clon's list go)
• Rhymerball
• CR90 + TRC in MM or Ackbar
• etc.

No list is strong against everything. However, if you don't have a plan to deal with the strong things which are also common, you are not going to do well. In short, a list either needs to be pro-meta (e.g. the best examples of the current meta) or anti-meta (a counterpick against the most common lists) to succeed. Being merely meta is not meta enough.

What is the interplay your list has between activation advantage and going first / second?

Part of what really makes the Clon list go is the same thing that made Mr. Qube's Gencon Special list go: it goes first, and has more ships / equal ships. In this matchup, the opponent is in the situation where the key ship of the first player will activate last, then on the next turn, will activate first. When this ship is Demolisher, it's particularly bad, but this is not a good situation to be in as a general rule.

To beat these lists, you either have to go first (anyone up for a bidding war?), or if you are going second, you need a way to mitigate this issue. The most obvious is to be simultaneously fast and have more activations than they do (which is why in every test game I've played against Clon's list with my 7x CR90 TRC list, the latter has won, as I don't have to move my closer or key ships until after Demolisher has already committed). Less obvious is to have large ships that can simply erase key pieces of a faster fleet (there is a non-zero chance that there is a really brutal anti-meta build around an offensively loaded ISD2 or MC80 which can remove raiders / corvettes / possibly Demolisher from the board in a single shot with a high degree of reliability).

Or, perhaps, Rieekan, who is similar to Demolisher in breaking core game rules in ways that can be leveraged for massive advantage. In fact, Rieekan may be the single best 2nd player admiral in the game at the 400pt level.

In short, I don't think people put nearly enough thought into this. They just take a few ships, have x points, and call it a day. If someone doesn't know how they would win as second player against an aggro list and/or hasn't bid very aggressively to be that list, all you have is garbage from a tournament perspective.

Objectives

A huge amount of this game turns on objectives. I am far less worried about going second against some lists if I have the right spread of objectives to punish them badly for wanting to go first against me. Most of my victories where I crush an opponent through the floor come when either I am first and they have an objective that plays into my hands (witness Fleet Ambush in my victory at the Newington Store Championship) or I am second and have a spread of three objectives, all of which are bad for the other guy to play against me.

If your list is not purpose built to screw the other guy through your objective choices, it's not good enough.

Okay, Reinholt, if you are so smart, what are the best lists?

I think there are three brush strokes that fit the bill here:

1. Super aggro rush lists. Clon's list, any evolution of the Gencon Special, my MM list, etc. Anything with activation advantage, a strong bid, and raw aggression can win, and it will also win very big against opponents not ready for it, which is helpful in a tournament.
2. "Water" lists, which are like the AF2 / A-Wing list from worlds. This list can play from second, and can counter aggro lists either by sloshing aside as their punch goes by, or by forming up in such a way that the punch never arrives (killing gladiator with an alpha strike by mass squadrons, for instance).
3. Points denial lists. I think MoV is an underrated component of the conversation. I also think there is a real chance that a very strong anti-meta list resides in the evasion/ridiculous durability side of the equation which is not currently being popularized. I think if something new and shocking bubbles to the surface in the future, this is the bucket it will come from, as we already see the first two doing well.

Does that make sense, or do I sound like a crazy person again?

3. Points denial lists. I think MoV is an underrated component of the conversation. I also think there is a real chance that a very strong anti-meta list resides in the evasion/ridiculous durability side of the equation which is not currently being popularized. I think if something new and shocking bubbles to the surface in the future, this is the bucket it will come from, as we already see the first two doing well.

I absolutely agree with this. There are so many upgrades that have been marginalized that are "denial" type that I believe are under utilized.

2. "Water" lists, which are like the AF2 / A-Wing list from worlds. This list can play from second, and can counter aggro lists either by sloshing aside as their punch goes by, or by forming up in such a way that the punch never arrives (killing gladiator with an alpha strike by mass squadrons, for instance)

Do you mean that they are fluid and hard to pin down?

2. "Water" lists, which are like the AF2 / A-Wing list from worlds. This list can play from second, and can counter aggro lists either by sloshing aside as their punch goes by, or by forming up in such a way that the punch never arrives (killing gladiator with an alpha strike by mass squadrons, for instance)

Do you mean that they are fluid and hard to pin down?

I mean that they are fluid enough to change shape depending on the threat that they face, and often prefer to go second as a result, or at least don't see it as a disadvantage. This usually means a combination of ranged firepower, speed, and sucker punching if people get out of position. That's why I reference the AF2 + A-Wing build (speed 3 ships that can turn at least some paired with the fastest squadrons in the game). It's a list that can still pick how the fight happens even when it goes second; shapeless, can play a different plan in each game, and still win.

2. "Water" lists, which are like the AF2 / A-Wing list from worlds. This list can play from second, and can counter aggro lists either by sloshing aside as their punch goes by, or by forming up in such a way that the punch never arrives (killing gladiator with an alpha strike by mass squadrons, for instance)

Do you mean that they are fluid and hard to pin down?

I mean that they are fluid enough to change shape depending on the threat that they face, and often prefer to go second as a result, or at least don't see it as a disadvantage. This usually means a combination of ranged firepower, speed, and sucker punching if people get out of position. That's why I reference the AF2 + A-Wing build (speed 3 ships that can turn at least some paired with the fastest squadrons in the game). It's a list that can still pick how the fight happens even when it goes second; shapeless, can play a different plan in each game, and still win.

So, you're saying it's basically the Bruce Lee of Armada list?

I think our triangle is more complex... it's really kind of a multidimensional n-shape surface where the exact balance points change on a tournament by tournament basis. Okay, that's probably not understandable in English. Let me try again...

I think there are three brush strokes that fit the bill here:

1. Super aggro rush lists. Clon's list, any evolution of the Gencon Special, my MM list, etc. Anything with activation advantage, a strong bid, and raw aggression can win, and it will also win very big against opponents not ready for it, which is helpful in a tournament.
2. "Water" lists, which are like the AF2 / A-Wing list from worlds. This list can play from second, and can counter aggro lists either by sloshing aside as their punch goes by, or by forming up in such a way that the punch never arrives (killing gladiator with an alpha strike by mass squadrons, for instance).
3. Points denial lists. I think MoV is an underrated component of the conversation. I also think there is a real chance that a very strong anti-meta list resides in the evasion/ridiculous durability side of the equation which is not currently being popularized. I think if something new and shocking bubbles to the surface in the future, this is the bucket it will come from, as we already see the first two doing well.

I would call... 1 = Aggro, 2 = Mid-Control, 3 = Control :-)

For example: In Magic, Aggro needs to punch through until Control sets up... if Control survives the Rush (e.g., takes out the Demolisher they will likely win)... Mid-Control is like "water" because it can either go Aggro or Control based on the matchup! There are tons of articles about knowing if you are the Aggro or Control... it's not always that obvious.

Demolisher shows that maybe the mc30 should of been given a shoot after moving title also

Demolisher shows that maybe the mc30 should of been given a shoot after moving title also

Demolisher shows that maybe Demolisher should be reduced in power. It's da best!