That's why I like to say that to start playing competitively, a player should expect to pay around 150/200$. It should give him enough to explore and find his playstyle, then expend accordingly.

I'd agree with that, perhaps even more. But the thing is, for the minimum cost to play Imperial Assault you can buy a fair amount of X-Wing. I'm not saying IA isn't worth it, just pointing out a flaw in the OP system.

What is hurting the game is the map rotation.

Yeah, and I think you do get a lot of potential value from you buy, but less value if you either don't play the campaign or someone in the group already owns those boxes. In the example of the guy who started this weekend... He has no use for the campaign stuff so he's paying for stuff he doesn't really want.

The stormtrooper thing is another problem. If you don't play Imperials why would you even want that pack? Even if you play Imperials do you need a 4th set of Stormtroopers? Yet FFG is forcing you to buy things you may not want, in some cases for the sake of a few bits of cardboard. It's bad enough that you have to buy the Raider to get the X1 title for the Advanced in X-Wing, but in Imperial Assaults case they're saying you need to buy the Scyk, and the Raider just to play the game, even if you don't use the actual ships.

Don't you also need the Leia pack for the Hoth Map?

You don't need the Leia pack or the Trooper pack, you only need the instruction that comes in there to build the map and the Mission cards. Has anyone any experience what ffg does if you do not have those but just have them written down on a piece of paper or something like this?

In X-Wing there is very little diffenrence between Luke and a normal Red Squadron pilot

You clearly don't play X-Wing then. Luke is a lot more survivable than a Red Squadron pilot.

To further expend on that point. An X-Wing is an X-Wing. It's not because it is piloted by Luke that suddenly it will have better cannons or more shields. But, the pilot and how you equip the ship is where the big difference is.

-A Rookie Pilot X-Wing with an R2 astromech and Integrated astromech will cost 22pts. Not too bad. PS2 so move early and shoot late. The R2 unit give him more green so he will clear stress more easily.

-Hobbie Klivian with a Targetting Astromech, Flechette Torpedoes and Integrated astromech will cost 29 pts. Now, thanks to Hobbie (PS 5) pilot ability and the astromech, you have an X-Wing that can k-turn without taking stress and have a free target lock by doing so, helping him to shoot his flechette torpedo and automatically give a stress to his target, making it easier to continue tailing him next turn or get on his tail next turn by k-turning again.

-Luke Skywalker with R2-D2, Lonewolf, Engine Upgrade will cost 36 pts. You have a PS8 pilot that have a free focus on each defend roll and can regen his shield by doing a green maneuver, it can also boost to keep a target in sight while not losing on defense thanks to his special ability.

-Wedge with BB-8, Push the Limit and Integrated Astromech will cost you 34pts. A PS9 pilot that can barrel roll before moving if he reveal a green maneuver, allowing him, thanks to Push the Limit to do potentially 3 action per turn. That means that at PS9 he will shoot really early and will attack with a Focus+Target Lock while also reducing the agility by one (Wedge ability).

So here we have 4 X-Wing (same basic stats) that will play very differently on the table. That's customization.

You don't need the Leia pack or the Trooper pack, you only need the instruction that comes in there to build the map and the Mission cards. Has anyone any experience what ffg does if you do not have those but just have them written down on a piece of paper or something like this?

Ya that is what I am saying, can your opponent just call DQ if you don't have the appropriate files? I know it is a not nice thing to do, but at a regional or national scale I doubt there is much hand holding going on.

You don't need the Leia pack or the Trooper pack, you only need the instruction that comes in there to build the map and the Mission cards. Has anyone any experience what ffg does if you do not have those but just have them written down on a piece of paper or something like this?

Ya that is what I am saying, can your opponent just call DQ if you don't have the appropriate files? I know it is a not nice thing to do, but at a regional or national scale I doubt there is much hand holding going on.

Don't know about the mission cards, but you at least needs the tiles. It means at a minimum that you need the Core Set, Twin Shadows and Retirn to Hoth for the tiles. FFG is forcing you to buy their main expensions to play IA competitively. In X-Wing, you are not forced to buy into any wave. A week or two ago, Hothie won a SC with a wave 1 Tie Fighter swarm. Can't remember if it was 6 or 7 ships, but you're looking at a 100/115$ team.

Well the rules say...

Players are responsible for bringing all of the game components they need to play a game of Star Wars: Imperial Assault. This

includes all models, Deployment cards, Skirmish Upgrade cards, and tokens. In addition, they must bring sufficient dice for attack

and defense rolls, a Command deck, and all legal map tiles and Mission cards.

So if someone showed up without having everything required, that would be grounds to have the person DQ'ed. To be honest I don't know what most TO's would do.

At the SC I just played we had a couple people without everything required, but we let it go... But that's different then Regionals at the FFG event center, my guess would be if someone reported it to a TO, then it's most likely that a FFG TO would DQ the person. I mean the rules are quite clear and if you're going to play at the EC, you really shouldn't expect to be able to proxy things.

You don't need the Leia pack or the Trooper pack, you only need the instruction that comes in there to build the map and the Mission cards. Has anyone any experience what ffg does if you do not have those but just have them written down on a piece of paper or something like this?

Ya that is what I am saying, can your opponent just call DQ if you don't have the appropriate files? I know it is a not nice thing to do, but at a regional or national scale I doubt there is much hand holding going on.

Don't know about the mission cards, but you at least needs the tiles. It means at a minimum that you need the Core Set, Twin Shadows and Retirn to Hoth for the tiles. FFG is forcing you to buy their main expensions to play IA competitively. In X-Wing, you are not forced to buy into any wave. A week or two ago, Hothie won a SC with a wave 1 Tie Fighter swarm. Can't remember if it was 6 or 7 ships, but you're looking at a 100/115$ team.

Oh trust me, as many will tell you on this forum, you don't have to campaign against the ridiculous skirmish model to me Check any thread on this board I am among the most vocal about it. Just seems to be falling on deaf ears is all

The only way I can see it actually getting through is if I stop buying the game, but that is counter productive to what I want!

So want to just clarify some things in my post. You know how it gets sometimes when you post in forums, you dont always get everything in the post you had intended...

About the customization:

I absolutley agree that X-wing can be very customizable, I dont deny it. However, the different pilots are basicly identical with with the differences being Pilot skill and Pilot ability. In my opinion the deploymnet cards of IA gives you more variety and differences in units thanks to different color dice, surge options and abilites on card and synergy with command cards.

"You clearly don't play X-Wing then. Luke is a lot more survivable than a Red Squadron pilot."

Of course I do, I have even won a Store Championship. I play very casually and only own a dozen ships however. I have played a lot with Luke, both with upgrades and without, I would not call him "a lot more survivable" than a red Squadron pilot. He has 1 ability that helps in some cases and he has higher PS which lets him shoot before others which can save him. I dont think this is the same as "a lot more survivable". To make him that you need to put points into him from upgrades which will limit your choice of other ships, not to mention that these upgrades on the Red Squadron pilot might help him as much too.

On the other hand, there is no deployment card in IA that is simliar to Luke and does what he does.

"So here we have 4 X-Wing (same basic stats) that will play very differently on the table. That's customization."

While I agree that this post does demonstrate how customizable X-wing can be it also shows you the only difference in them are the PS and their special ability. Lets say you switch all the upgrades between Wedge and Luke, It would be the same basic differences between them as before right?

However, the different pilots are basicly identical with with the differences being Pilot skill and Pilot ability.

The same can be said of Elite vs Regular cards in Imperial Assault. There's a huge difference between a green squadron pilot, Jake and Tycho for example. Much bigger then the difference between an elite and normal stormtrooper.

I would not call him "a lot more survivable" than a red Squadron pilot.

Again, you don't really understand X-Wing that well if you're going to keep making that kind of statement.

While the upgrade cards in X-wing might never be used beacuse you play ships without upgrades. Or if you do use upgrade it is my opinion that you will often have to take atleast 1 fewer ship than you would normally or have to fly a pilot with less Pilot skill because it eats into your squad points and therefore taking away options for you.

You have such a poor understanding of how X-Wing works, you really can't form a real opinion about it, or how something else compares to it.

The number of possible X-Wing lists you can make with a sizeable collection is staggering and blows most other games away. I'm not just talking about minor differences, I'm talking about lists that have meaningful differences in how they are played.

But anyone who thinks that upgrade cards reduce the number of options...

"So here we have 4 X-Wing (same basic stats) that will play very differently on the table. That's customization."

While I agree that this post does demonstrate how customizable X-wing can be it also shows you the only difference in them are the PS and their special ability. Lets say you switch all the upgrades between Wedge and Luke, It would be the same basic differences between them as before right?

No, the only difference is not only the PS and their special ability, it's also how they synergize with some upgrades. You could switch the upgrades between Luke and Wedge, but then the synergy would not be the same. From the exemple I gave, Luke is built as a tank while Wedge as an offensive beast. Switch the upgrades, and while still being viable, it's not playing on the strenght of each pilot. Building on the strength of the pilot is part of the customization. But the beauty of being customizable is that yes, you can switch the upgrade, or build your Luke or Wedge to your liking. You want a X-Wing good, but it doesn't stop there, what role do you actually want it to fit? In IA, you take a Rebel Saboteur and it pretty much stop at Regular or Elite, there is no way to customize it, you take it as it is. You take Luke, well he'll be like every Luke you'll encounter. While there is more variety in deployment card versus number of ships available, you can't customize your deployment card like you can in X-Wing.

"X-Wing is customizable per ship: You don't just take Han, you take Han with a Talent, a title, some crew, a modification."

I think this post is really good in highlighting some of the differences between IA and X-wing.

I absolutley agree that you CAN customize ships very differently, but the things is also about how playable this becomes. When you have upgraded your Han with all the tools you want, what are your options after this? Take as many Zs as you possibly can to make it competitive or take another big upgraded ship? Is this really customizable? As soon as you give a ship some form of upgrade you limit what other ships you can take. The upgrade points really eat into your list, and realisticly, how many of these upgrades card sees play regularly?

First, do you want to take a Fat Han or slim with just a couple of upgrade? The choice is yours, that's customization. You are not forced to take as many upgrade as you want, but you can if you wish to. Do you want to go with 3P0+Gunner, or maybe Luke crew. Or do you want to take a Recon Specialist? or Lando crew? Or Chewie? Do you take Predator, or Lonewolf, or VI so that you shoot first, or Push the Limit so that you can do 2 actions? Then what do you pair him with? 3 Z is always nice, but maybe you want to have some more points to take 3 A-Wing instead? Or 2 B-Wing to add some punch and health? Maybe a Y-Wing with a TLT and a Z. Or a second Elite like Poe, Jake, Miranda. And don't forget that Han is one of the most expensive ship, that's like saying that there is not a lot of customization in IA because you took Vader. But the thing is, making Han as fat as possible or really slim is entirely up to you, he's not fixed at a certain point level with built in upgrades, you customize him how you like with the rest of your list in mind. Meanwhile in Imperial Assault, you take Vader as he is, there is absolutely no way to customize him. You want Vader, you pay 18 pts.

As for how many of these upgrades sees play, I'll tell you again to look on this site : http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/tourneys. There is not a lot of list that looks the same. Of course there is, there is copycat everywhere, but there is a lot of variety, as it should be in a highly customizable game.

While the upgrade cards in X-wing might never be used beacuse you play ships without upgrades. Or if you do use upgrade it is my opinion that you will often have to take atleast 1 fewer ship than you would normally or have to fly a pilot with less Pilot skill because it eats into your squad points and therefore taking away options for you.

Just want to say regarding that point that choosing to lower the PS of a ship to be able to take an upgrade is not taking away options for you, it IS an option. Do you want a better PS for one of your ship or do you prefer to take that upgrade on another one? You do what you want, it is your choice, it's part of your options while building a list.