…do you think the game would be more popular?

Had a fun little discussion with a gaming friend about this very topic last night.

IA’s been out for awhile now, and it’s feeling more and more like a specialist game (kind of like Armada) rather than an ever growing core game. Not saying that's a bad or good thing.

How much of that is due to the fact that X-wing simply came out first (X-wing players unable to make the jump to IA due to the commitment/money put into X-wing) or is it simply the competitive scene that drives X-wing to the top?

Just want to hear other people’s opinions.

Love both games, so no need to hate, and I'd like to see more discussion on this board other than "what's next???" threads lol

All 3 scratch a different gaming itch.

IA is a Star Wars themed Descent with a cool skirmish game added on. (or vice versa, depending on what you prefer) -- med / long play time.

Armada is an Epic Fleet combat game that is like chess. (Clontrooper's analogy, not mine) -- long play time

X-Wing is a fast paced dogfighting game. Easy to learn, easy to play, -- fast play time.

Of the three only one has broad appeal and has an easy setup, tear down.

I've talked about this with my brother. His biggest hurdle to creating IA squads for 1v1 is that he has to build a command deck in addition to assembling his squad. That little added bit of complexity just kills the experience for him. Faster squad-building in X-Wing makes him feel he can get into the game faster.

X-Wing has the advantage in almost every way. First or third I still think it would be the more popular one. Easier to learn, shorter play time, cheaper initial buy in. I've dropped Armada and IA is being reduced to campaign play only at this point. Too many games not enough money or time or players.

I'm on the fence about dropping Armada myself. I just prefer x-wing in every possible way - including that not-so-insignificant price factor.

In my area at least, IA is pretty low key. The local FLGS says they have people coming in to play campaign the odd time, but skirmish just doesn't exist. Most people get scared off by having to buy multiple big box expansions JUST for figures.

X-Wing on the other hand is huge and played everywhere. Makes me think its time to stop building the IA collection and start on my X-Wing

I've talked about this with my brother. His biggest hurdle to creating IA squads for 1v1 is that he has to build a command deck in addition to assembling his squad. That little added bit of complexity just kills the experience for him. Faster squad-building in X-Wing makes him feel he can get into the game faster.

The effort of creating a command deck isn't really different from the effort of picking upgrades for XWing.

In my area at least, IA is pretty low key. The local FLGS says they have people coming in to play campaign the odd time, but skirmish just doesn't exist. Most people get scared off by having to buy multiple big box expansions JUST for figures.

X-Wing on the other hand is huge and played everywhere. Makes me think its time to stop building the IA collection and start on my X-Wing

I think they should release figure expansions for the core figures like they do with XWing... releasing the XWing and TIE Fighter expansions. Kinds like the Stormtroopers. I would never buy an additional Core game/expansion unless it was just a figure expansion. As is I currently only have 1 copy of each and I'm the only one who owns the game out of all my friends, we all prefer the campaign... but when we play skirmish we just build what we can out of the components I have. At least I managed to get some funding by implementing a tip jar at every game... (I'm the imperial player).

In my area at least, IA is pretty low key. The local FLGS says they have people coming in to play campaign the odd time, but skirmish just doesn't exist. Most people get scared off by having to buy multiple big box expansions JUST for figures.

X-Wing on the other hand is huge and played everywhere. Makes me think its time to stop building the IA collection and start on my X-Wing

It costs more money to be competitive in X-Wing than it does Imperial Assault.

The effort of creating a command deck isn't really different from the effort of picking upgrades for XWing.

Perhaps, but perception is very powerful, and if he looks at it as having to effectively build two lists... One for the models and one for the command cards, then that's how he sees it.

It costs more money to be competitive in X-Wing than it does Imperial Assault.

Competitive X-Wing can be very cheep. Falcon, core set and a T-70 X-Wing and you have a list that can be competitive. That's way cheaper then the 4x4 which required four core sets.

But to the overall point, no X-Wing has a lot of advantages, but being first isn't really one of them.

The big advantage x-wing has is its playerbase is not split like IA's into campaign and skirmish, and x-wing players don't have to schedule meet ups or play at home to find a game. Campaign is IA's greatest strength but also the games weakness.

It also didn't help that the games skirmish mode was competitively broken for a year.

In my area at least, IA is pretty low key. The local FLGS says they have people coming in to play campaign the odd time, but skirmish just doesn't exist. Most people get scared off by having to buy multiple big box expansions JUST for figures.

X-Wing on the other hand is huge and played everywhere. Makes me think its time to stop building the IA collection and start on my X-Wing

It costs more money to be competitive in X-Wing than it does Imperial Assault.

And since no one plays the Skirmish game you've got a great chance at top 4 every SC! (Seriously though, I don't think I've ever seen anyone play skirmish)

In my area at least, IA is pretty low key. The local FLGS says they have people coming in to play campaign the odd time, but skirmish just doesn't exist. Most people get scared off by having to buy multiple big box expansions JUST for figures.

X-Wing on the other hand is huge and played everywhere. Makes me think its time to stop building the IA collection and start on my X-Wing

I think this matters a lot. If you get the core game, why can't you get other forces without the big expansions?

This forces players to commit heavily into product they may not want. I play casual at home skirmish, so I buy what I want. But for tournament and such, I would hesitate to invest. X-wing seems better suited for building a collection and easing into the game.

The effort of creating a command deck isn't really different from the effort of picking upgrades for XWing.

Yeah, it really is. The upgrades in X-Wing are solidly divided into numerous sub-categories and each ship generally only has access to a small handful of those categories, meaning it is a lot easier to run through the various upgrades. the command cards don't have any hard and fast sub-divisions, so when you are assembling a command deck you have to sift through, what, more than a hundred cards to pick 15. For any given ship in X-Wing you have to sort through, maybe, 2 dozen cards 2-3 times.

Plus, the point costs for upgrades in X-Wing come out of the same pool of points as the ships. with an IA command deck, you have two pools of points to keep track of, along with a limit on the number of cards you can have.

While it is possible that the total number of choices are similar, in X-Wing you get to process those choices in much smaller chunks, while in IA you have to conceptualize your entire list all together. That makes for a BIG difference in ease of list building. I know that the hassle of assembling a command deck certainly keeps me from tweaking my list in the middle of an evening. It's play one list the whole night or don't play.

An earlier release date would not have changed anything.

FFG's sale strategy and the big balancing-issue in skirmish killed a growing competitve community.

IA-interested people asked me about competetive skirmish, "What are the top-tier lists and how much do i have to pay to be able to compete?","oh, there is just one boring list and it costs you just about 400$ to get it.". That answer killed all thoughts about getting into IA.

Now with the big errata, we have a new Problems getting people into IA. If people, who just bought the corebox and wave 1, start to play skirmish, a lot of cards are played different, which is pretty confusing for beginners. And a growing pool of commandcards isn't inviting as well...

Another problem is the big-box-expansion-issue: 2 models, 1 deployment card. That's bulls**t and makes IA really expensive, if you want to have all options. You stil have to buy 4 big-box-expansion to play 4 regular units. That's much worse than their x-wing strategy to include higly competitive cards into their epic-ships.

I really love IA and it could have been a great success, if FFG's playtesting would have worked and if they wouldn't be that greedy.

Vollie

I think three minis based games in the same IP is just a little much. If anything I see X-Wing and Armada stepping on each other's toes because at first glance, they're both space ship games. I don't see IA and X-Wing really competing for gamers, because they feel vastly different and have a different product model.

In my area at least, IA is pretty low key. The local FLGS says they have people coming in to play campaign the odd time, but skirmish just doesn't exist. Most people get scared off by having to buy multiple big box expansions JUST for figures.

X-Wing on the other hand is huge and played everywhere. Makes me think its time to stop building the IA collection and start on my X-Wing

It costs more money to be competitive in X-Wing than it does Imperial Assault.

Does it though? It was about 480 Canadian to buy 4 cores to be competitive in the old meta that FFG took their sweet time nerfing. Everyone I talked to about this game said that they looked at it from the start, saw the initial investment for a broken meta, and refused to invest that much into another game.

The other option was to build an inferior build and get roasted. As we saw at last years worlds pre errata, 4x4 dominated. NOW it is a lot more likely you could attract players, however when I bring that up they just reference last years Worlds and then change the subject. FFG burned a bridge big time there.

If anything I see X-Wing and Armada stepping on each other's toes because at first glance, they're both space ship games.

That's not really true though, one is a star fighter game the other is a capital ship game. The two games play so differently that while there is some cross over they only compete with each other in terms of what you spend your money on.

Does it though?

X-Wing can cost a lot I know I've spent a lot on my collection, but I think that looking at how much Pauls list cost is a little flawed, because it's not like he spent that much purely for that list. He spent that much to buy a lot of ships he likely uses at different times.

I mean if you build a table and buy a tablesaw and all the other tools you need to make it, do you factor those into the cost of the table? I don't because those are things I can use again and again.

So to say that Paul's list cost $X is not really accurate, sure it cost that much to build that list, but it's not like that's the only list you can ever build with the ships and upgrades you got.

Also, it depends on what you mean as competitive. Are we talking Store Championship or Worlds?

How much does it cost to build a list for IA regionals?

Fair point, but i think the side point I was trying to make is that IA's problem wasn't coming second, I think it was just coming out with such a broken meta.

What game requires you to buy 4 copies to be competitive? It's stupid. And that isn't fully their fault, until you get it out into the masses you won't really see the shape your game is going to take (Prime example, Ultima Online 1997, who would have thought the world was so full of closet serial killers?). However, they have to take responsibility as they designed the game.

They really need to start offering core pieces outside the box if they want to get serious about attracting attention.

An earlier release date would not have changed anything.

FFG's sale strategy and the big balancing-issue in skirmish killed a growing competitve community.

IA-interested people asked me about competetive skirmish, "What are the top-tier lists and how much do i have to pay to be able to compete?","oh, there is just one boring list and it costs you just about 400$ to get it.". That answer killed all thoughts about getting into IA.

Now with the big errata, we have a new Problems getting people into IA. If people, who just bought the corebox and wave 1, start to play skirmish, a lot of cards are played different, which is pretty confusing for beginners. And a growing pool of commandcards isn't inviting as well...

Another problem is the big-box-expansion-issue: 2 models, 1 deployment card. That's bulls**t and makes IA really expensive, if you want to have all options. You stil have to buy 4 big-box-expansion to play 4 regular units. That's much worse than their x-wing strategy to include higly competitive cards into their epic-ships.

I really love IA and it could have been a great success, if FFG's playtesting would have worked and if they wouldn't be that greedy.

Vollie

I don't see IA and X-Wing really competing for gamers, because they feel vastly different and have a different product model.

Quoted for truth.

New gamers often ask: Why aren't there 2 regular and 2 elite e.g. Royal Guard deployment cards in the core box? (Replace Royal Guard with you favorite non-unique core-box unit)

If anything I see X-Wing and Armada stepping on each other's toes because at first glance, they're both space ship games.

That's not really true though, one is a star fighter game the other is a capital ship game. The two games play so differently that while there is some cross over they only compete with each other in terms of what you spend your money on.

That's why I said at first glance. Yes, they're definitely different games, but it's too easy to dismiss them as similar at first glance.

I think it was just coming out with such a broken meta.

Oh I agree completely. Myself I'd never bother with competitive skirmish if it meant having to buy 4 core sets for the sake of 8 cards.

And that isn't fully their fault

No as you point out playtesting only gets you so far. I can understand that they didn't want to try to fix things with a kneejerk reaction. But as you say it's their game, so it's their responsibility.

They really need to start offering core pieces outside the box if they want to get serious about attracting attention.

IMO the biggest issue with the changes is how they're getting the new cards out there. Not everyone can make it to a LGS and take part in some event to get those fixed cards. If FFG is going to errata something as important as the deployment card and it's as big of a change as they made. They really should just send out fixed versions of the cards to anyone who asks.

I mean make as simple as contacting FFG's CS and they'll send you new cards.

It is IMO poor on their part to make such a sweeping change and not offer some way of making getting new cards out to people easily and for free.

Also I have a little problem with making sets like Twin Shadows or in the future Return to Hoth required for competitive play. With X-Wing or Armada I can buy a core set, perhaps a expansion or two and go play at the SC. But with Imperial Assault I have to buy Twin Shadows, which is something a Skirmish player may not be interested in.

I play both so I don't have a huge issue with buying them, but I can see that it will keep some people out of the game.

I actually think it is the other way around. Imperial Assault would have done far less well for itself if it hadn't been for its predecessor X-Wing.

Fantasy Flight has been a succesful and well-established company long before X-Wing was released, but judging from the numbers that FFG has been presenting over the years (in particular at the InFlight reports at GenCon), X-Wing quite simply outdid anything they had previously produced. It seems reasonable to expect that the success of X-Wing greatly expanded knowledge of FFG well beyond their usual customer base and that it paved the way for Imperial Assault.

Supposedly Imperial Assault broke their previous records for sales for a newly released game, only to be surpassed half a year later when Armada hit the market. I presume that this cannot just be attributed to the strengths of these games, but that those sales both build on the momentum and the credibility as a Star Wars Miniature Game publisher that FFG had already established through X-Wing.

That aside, I do play all three and X-Wing is by far - in terms of learning it as well as the entry cost - far more accessible than the other two, which has got to influence its popularity.

It seems reasonable to expect that the success of X-Wing greatly expanded knowledge of FFG well beyond their usual customer base and that it paved the way for Imperial Assault.

Great response, I never thought of it like that.

I think it was just coming out with such a broken meta.

Oh I agree completely. Myself I'd never bother with competitive skirmish if it meant having to buy 4 core sets for the sake of 8 cards.

And that isn't fully their fault

No as you point out playtesting only gets you so far. I can understand that they didn't want to try to fix things with a kneejerk reaction. But as you say it's their game, so it's their responsibility.

They really need to start offering core pieces outside the box if they want to get serious about attracting attention.

IMO the biggest issue with the changes is how they're getting the new cards out there. Not everyone can make it to a LGS and take part in some event to get those fixed cards. If FFG is going to errata something as important as the deployment card and it's as big of a change as they made. They really should just send out fixed versions of the cards to anyone who asks.

I mean make as simple as contacting FFG's CS and they'll send you new cards.

It is IMO poor on their part to make such a sweeping change and not offer some way of making getting new cards out to people easily and for free.

Also I have a little problem with making sets like Twin Shadows or in the future Return to Hoth required for competitive play. With X-Wing or Armada I can buy a core set, perhaps a expansion or two and go play at the SC. But with Imperial Assault I have to buy Twin Shadows, which is something a Skirmish player may not be interested in.

I play both so I don't have a huge issue with buying them, but I can see that it will keep some people out of the game.

I've wanted to get involved in the tournament scene in my area (there is quite a nice one in Southern California) but I've been unable to for a couple of reasons. The foremost being the broken meta that required 4 core sets. Now that that has been changed, I look forward to the new opportunities. But I'm still not buying into skirmish for 2 reasons: 1) We may see a new broken meta appear that is just as cost prohibitive as the previous, so I'll hold out for a while. 2) New errata deployment cards. I hear I can get new cards at tournaments, but I'm not interested in being forced to participate to get something that should be provided regardless. I liken it to a car recall, if there's something wrong with the brake system for a line of cars that I happen to own one of, it gets repaired/replaced at no cost (I realize this is all forced by the government and it usually involves life and death, but work with me here). FFG could do this very easily for very cheap as well. Prior to the next tournament, let people go to their FLGS and show proof that they own the game and need new cards. When that same FLGS sends out for tournament packets, it also says how many errata cards are needed. All the players can go and get the replacements without having to play in a tournament, if that's their wish. This is also an added bonus as it forces people to go to their FLGS where they might make a purchase while they do this business, which helps the store stay open and continue to host tournaments.

Now, let me try to bring this back on topic. I don't think the release of X-W prior to IA had much if any impact on IA sales. I think that people just want to get involved in a Star Wars themed game. IA does have a higher entry point, but that point quickly becomes moot as it's much easier to start a game of vanilla IA than it is to play vanilla XW. IA may have seen a few more sales had it been first, but XW is an easier game to pick up and would have been just as successful had it been the first, second or third game released.

I love IA and X-Wing, and have dropped a lot of money on both. I love both games, probably IA a little more, but really all I ever want to do is play them.

The two games are insanely different from each other.

In playing and owning both, I consider IA to be my "heavy" Star Wars game (that position was previously held by the Star Wars Card Game which I traded for X-Wing), and X-Wing to be my "light" Star Wars game. I can play X-Wing with my 4 year old son and have no problem - not so much with Imperial Assault. But to be honest, you can really explain how to play both games in about 5 minutes - only you will need to reference the rules for keywords from time to time.

X-Wing always feels easier and faster to play, and I've only owned it for a couple months. Imperial Assault will always be my true gaming love though, but it's harder to get to the table than X-Wing.