I think the simplest solution would be to add range bonuses to turrets and cannons. This makes their laser fire work the same way as primary weapons, which I think fits better thematically, while giving ordnance something special to differentiate it from other secondary weapons.

How would this effect turrets and cannons? Well it would be a nice buff for all of the turrets out there that nobody uses, and a small nerf to the TLT. I don't think it is too controversial to say that this would be a fine outcome. For cannons it is a bit more tricky. Each cannon would lose a bit of punch at long range, but gain some at short range. The only real loser here is HLC, which many feel is on the strong side to begin with.

I'd love to hear what MJ thinks about this type of change from a balance standpoint. I cannot foresee this breaking any upgrades, and think that it probably moves everything a bit more towards balance, but I haven't done any real math in over a decade, so I'm not the one to model it. This also has the benefit of not having to errata any cards, as this would just be a minor tweak to the game rules.

I dont think this is the worst idea, but here's tne problem: Autoblaster turret. That would have to be errata'd again to not get R1 bonus or else itd be quite ridiculous for just 2pts. And thats just too complicated.

From the original post, I am more concerned about if they will errata the MOV rules for large based ships. Since that has arrived we have seen a huge change in the meta concerning large ships.

if by "huge change" you mean "no longer dominating"

we're still seeing Aggressors, Dash and Decimators popping up in high spots, especially back at the most recent worlds

only Han seems to have ****** off (which is nothing if not a good thing)

Either way - its too early to nerf anything right now.

More data is to be collected and there upgrades and ships in the piepline that may shift the meta as well.

I think after Worlds 2016 we will have a better picture about whether TLT needs a nerf or not.

The only way I fathom TLT's getting a nerf is if Empire gets access to turrets.

I hope the TIE Aggressor will fill this gap

How would this effect turrets and cannons?

Well let's look at that then...

HLC's become weaker. They can't fire at range 1 now, so they don't get the bonus attack die, but will lose damage at range 3.

Manglers and Flechette's will become pretty much pointless on any ship with 3 attack dice.

Tractor Beams would stay about the same so would Ion Cannons. So the net result is over all bad for cannons.

For secondary turrets I'm not sure what the impact would be the TLT is the only secondary turret that can shoot at range 3 currently. It might make blaster turrets almost worth it, but still they're very hard to use. Autoblasters could actually become semi-broken when you start throwing 4 dice. For ICT's the effect would be fairly negligible since they can't attack at range 3 anyway.

The new dorsal turret already has this ability baked into it. So does it now get 2 extra dice meaning it throws four dice at range 1?

I think the simplest solution would be to add range bonuses to turrets and cannons. This makes their laser fire work the same way as primary weapons, which I think fits better thematically, while giving ordnance something special to differentiate it from other secondary weapons.

How would this effect turrets and cannons? Well it would be a nice buff for all of the turrets out there that nobody uses, and a small nerf to the TLT. I don't think it is too controversial to say that this would be a fine outcome. For cannons it is a bit more tricky. Each cannon would lose a bit of punch at long range, but gain some at short range. The only real loser here is HLC, which many feel is on the strong side to begin with.

I'd love to hear what MJ thinks about this type of change from a balance standpoint. I cannot foresee this breaking any upgrades, and think that it probably moves everything a bit more towards balance, but I haven't done any real math in over a decade, so I'm not the one to model it. This also has the benefit of not having to errata any cards, as this would just be a minor tweak to the game rules.

I would also like to hear MJs analysis on this possible fix. Of all possible erratas, I feel this would be the most acceptable and interesting. Yes, autoblasters would get a massive bump, but that range limitation is still pretty heavy.

Wait. Crap.

Autoblaster + Acc Corrector Ghost makes me rethink this immediately. 4 auto damage turned into 4-6 auto damage is probably over the top. Darn... It felt so right... I mean, why do cannons and turrets not have to deal with range bonuses anyway? Aren't they the same energy based weapons as primary weapons are (because we know this games mechanics weigh heavily on the thematics ).

• TLTs have rendered all vanilla generic ships obsolete. There is still the roughly 50-50 split of generic vs named pilots, but virtually all of the generic pilots are now carrying TLT, Crackshot, or Palpatine, which are all wave ~7 upgrades. Generics are now in net less cost effective than TLT Y-wings, so naturally the meta has been flooded by Y-wings and TLT.

To be frank, this was kind of inevitable as they tried to bring non-generics back into the fold. As someone who remembers when you never took unique pilots, I am not too concerned with generics needing a little something extra to compete with their unique counterparts.

The only thing that is inevitable is that the meta will adjust according to new releases. However the type and extent is essentially completely up to the developers. Just because FFG introduced some power creep (intentionally or not) to bring some named pilots back to competitive status, it does not follow that they needed to push the overall power limits of the game as much as they did to make said pilots viable.

To your point though, there are far less vanilla pilots around now than there were named pilots back during GenericWing, like wave 3, Worlds 2013. The pendulum has swung the other way, and arguably to a greater extent than before.

Power creep is defined as when a new unit or upgrade renders a previously competitive unit or upgrade non-competitive. TLT at 6 points has rendered vanilla (0 upgrades) generics obsolete. Therefore TLT at 6 points is power creep.

It also depends on what you consider viable. Different people have different opinions on what is viable. I mean, the top tier squad is important. But, I maintain that the lower level tournaments is a more important factor into the health and balance of the game. Sure, that isn't the "perfect balance" many people chase, but it is also the most realistic, and best, outcome one can get from a game of this nature.

In regards to viability, it is safe to say that TLT Y-wings have pushed all vanilla generics down at least half a tier. If Z-95 filler was previously tier 1, then now it is tier 1.5. If you think it was tier 1.5, then it is now tier 2. This affects far more than just the top-end meta at Regionals cuts and Worlds Top 32. It absolutely does trickle down into what people put on the table at their local stores. The low level tournaments always eventually follow the high-level results and mathematical predictions, not the other way around, hence why I focus my analysis on the top end.

But, if the outcome is positive, is the power creep really a bad thing?

Now that's an interesting question. I don't completely agree with MJ's stance either, I think the generic has been out of favor for a lot longer than the Phantom or TLT's have been around. So the idea that those things pushed them out is questionable.

FFG has done what many people here asked, gave us a reason to use high PS aces and now people want to go back to the day when low PS generics ruled.

I'm very much of the opinion that as long as a ship is viable in some form, then the fact that some versions of it aren't isn't that big of a deal

I don't disagree that high capability, high cost efficiency Aces have also been pushing out generics for a while now. In fact, the non-public MathWing 3.0 analysis I now have points to this very clearly, where a few of the named pilots are actually more efficient than generics in an absolute sense once PS-killing is taken into account. Between their equal or better cost efficiency, and high PS maneuverability options, certain aces are hands-down better than even the best generic ships. That is an entirely different although somewhat related discussion. I have a lot of thoughts on Aces Power Creep as well, and via MathWing 3.0 I can probably quantify it better than anyone else can. For better or for worse, v3.0 is too powerful a tool to release to public consumption / FFG for free, so this will be a tale to tell another day if at all.

Named pilots are unique, so it can be difficult to completely replace generics in your list with named pilots, although Palp Aces already does it. All-aces squads will, however, become easier to build in the future as new power creep elites are introduced such as Vessery x7/TIE-D and the Inquisitor. However, TLT has done something slightly different. It has rendered generic ships obsolete by other generic ships. Even if you don't want to take an all-aces squad, you still won't want to take the vanilla generics because they are generally inferior to TLT Y-wings.

I think the simplest solution would be to add range bonuses to turrets and cannons. This makes their laser fire work the same way as primary weapons, which I think fits better thematically, while giving ordnance something special to differentiate it from other secondary weapons.

How would this effect turrets and cannons? Well it would be a nice buff for all of the turrets out there that nobody uses, and a small nerf to the TLT. I don't think it is too controversial to say that this would be a fine outcome. For cannons it is a bit more tricky. Each cannon would lose a bit of punch at long range, but gain some at short range. The only real loser here is HLC, which many feel is on the strong side to begin with.

I'd love to hear what MJ thinks about this type of change from a balance standpoint. I cannot foresee this breaking any upgrades, and think that it probably moves everything a bit more towards balance, but I haven't done any real math in over a decade, so I'm not the one to model it. This also has the benefit of not having to errata any cards, as this would just be a minor tweak to the game rules.

It would be complicated and would probably break something else in the process (autoblaster turret being a potential example as previously mentioned). I could model it in my v3.0 models and test it out, but I'm not making v3.0 public anyway, as I'm generally not in the business of doing design and analysis for FFG (directly or indirectly) pro-bono.

How would this effect turrets and cannons?

Manglers and Flechette's will become pretty much pointless on any ship with 3 attack dice.

But... Aren't they... already?

Autoblasters could actually become semi-broken when you start throwing 4 dice.

Autoblaster Turrets would only throw three dice. Autoblaster Cannons go up to 4 dice, which might make them actually worth taking on a 3 attack ship. Their 5 point cost is probably high enough to keep them from being broken.

As an avid fan of the Scum and Villainy faction, this is exactly my issue.

But the problem with S&V isn't the TLT, it's that the other ships in that price range aren't very good to start with.I'm also not sure that a TLT Y-Wing is always the best choice at 24 points.

For scum? The only argument is 2 Binayre Pirates, but they get much better once you throw Feedback Arrays on them. So yes, for 24 points, the best option you have is a TLT Y Wing.

As an avid fan of the Scum and Villainy faction, this is exactly my issue.

But the problem with S&V isn't the TLT, it's that the other ships in that price range aren't very good to start with.I'm also not sure that a TLT Y-Wing is always the best choice at 24 points.

For scum? The only argument is 2 Binayre Pirates, but they get much better once you throw Feedback Arrays on them. So yes, for 24 points, the best option you have is a TLT Y Wing.

and for 26 points, you get a TLT with a beautifully modifiable set of attacks

r4 aggro is such a sexy beast, and when you stack it atop TLTs hilarity ensues. It'll punches right through aces; such that I'm surprised we don't see it more often

sadly, r4 can't help out any of the other generic scum ships, but they will be there to ensure Contracted Scout torpedo boats kick all sorts of ass

How would this effect turrets and cannons?

Manglers and Flechette's will become pretty much pointless on any ship with 3 attack dice.

But... Aren't they... already?

If I had two points with nothing better to spend it on and a ship with a cannon slot, I'd pop a Flechette cannon into in a heartbeat. When I needed just one more point of damage to take a ship off the board at range three or if I was shooting at an already high agility ship at range three, negating that bonus was worth the cost. If I ended up getting to deal useful stress with it that was just icing on the cake.

How hard would it be for all of us to band together and start begging FFG to get MajorJuggler onto the design team? He's a reasonable person and he'd be good at designing this game, he deserves the job.

New petition? New petition.

Hoe hard would it be for all of us to band together and start begging FFG to get MajorJuggler onto the design team?

New petition? New petition.

The cost of employing MJ would probably add an extra couple of bucks to each ship. I wouldn't be surprised if he costs almost as much as Frank and Alex put together.

Hoe hard would it be for all of us to band together and start begging FFG to get MajorJuggler onto the design team?

New petition? New petition.

The cost of employing MJ would probably add an extra couple of bucks to each ship. I wouldn't be surprised if he costs almost as much as Frank and Alex put together.

worth paying it if gets said ships on the table

(i.e, prevents cases ala Knave squadron, delta squadron, blacksun enforcer...)

Hoe hard would it be for all of us to band together and start begging FFG to get MajorJuggler onto the design team?

New petition? New petition.

I'm pretty sure he already mentioned FFG arent willing to pay a competetive salary for that kind of expertise. Which i think is kind of curious considering Xwing is such a massive success.

Hoe hard would it be for all of us to band together and start begging FFG to get MajorJuggler onto the design team?

New petition? New petition.

I'm pretty sure he already mentioned FFG arent willing to pay a competetive salary for that kind of expertise. Which i think is kind of curious considering Xwing is such a massive success.

massive success in spite of that kind of expertise is probably the exact reason why

Hoe hard would it be for all of us to band together and start begging FFG to get MajorJuggler onto the design team?

New petition? New petition.

I'm pretty sure he already mentioned FFG arent willing to pay a competetive salary for that kind of expertise. Which i think is kind of curious considering Xwing is such a massive success.

It's a massive success without having the cost burden of a professional math genius. FFG would have to expect a huge increase in sales that come directly from having things mathed out better than they are to justify the cost.

They also run the risk of having an overmathed game actually decrease sales. The slight balance problems that X-Wing has probably puts it at a sweet spot where most people are satisfied with how balanced it is while still buying expansions to adapt to the imbalances.

Hoe hard would it be for all of us to band together and start begging FFG to get MajorJuggler onto the design team?

New petition? New petition.

I'm pretty sure he already mentioned FFG arent willing to pay a competetive salary for that kind of expertise. Which i think is kind of curious considering Xwing is such a massive success.

Anonymous online reports peg developers at FFG in the low to mid $30,000s. A Ph.D. can reasonably expect to be employed at somewhere between half again and four times as much, depending on the field and whether you want to work for a university or private industry.

Listen. Speaking our mind in these threads which are read by FFG are how we ban together.

3 of my suggestions (See link) have been used by FFG and so have posters suggestions too.

By speaking our mind, we are effectively play testing and creating ideas for FFG for Free. So speak up and be accounted for.

Hoe hard would it be for all of us to band together and start begging FFG to get MajorJuggler onto the design team?

New petition? New petition.

I'm pretty sure he already mentioned FFG arent willing to pay a competetive salary for that kind of expertise. Which i think is kind of curious considering Xwing is such a massive success.

Anonymous online reports peg developers at FFG in the low to mid $30,000s. A Ph.D. can reasonably expect to be employed at somewhere between half again and four times as much, depending on the field and whether you want to work for a university or private industry.

FFG can start a "hire MajorJuggler" Kickstarter. If players want the best balance money can buy, they can buy it!

I think making NEW things to help balance is a better option than going back and Nerfing/Buffing willy nilly. Don't get me wrong, some of the new cards that help ships out are great, but not every single ships needs changing.

Hoe hard would it be for all of us to band together and start begging FFG to get MajorJuggler onto the design team?

New petition? New petition.

I'm pretty sure he already mentioned FFG arent willing to pay a competetive salary for that kind of expertise. Which i think is kind of curious considering Xwing is such a massive success.

Anonymous online reports peg developers at FFG in the low to mid $30,000s. A Ph.D. can reasonably expect to be employed at somewhere between half again and four times as much, depending on the field and whether you want to work for a university or private industry.

FFG can start a "hire MajorJuggler" Kickstarter. If players want the best balance money can buy, they can buy it!

Not to crap on Dr. Juggler's resume or anything, I think another issue with FFG paying to bring his work in house is that he may not have a professional track record to point to and say "See what I did for these other companies? I can do the same for you".

No.

The effects on the meta that TLT has is nothing like what the effects of the Phantom had.

How can you say this when the Phantom never won Worlds including pre-nerf era. TLTs won Worlds right away. Even after the nerf to the Phantom, fat PWTs still was dominating and didn't stop them from being the popular choice until the MOV change.

The Phantom was the rock to the swarms scissor to the PWT paper. TLTs have already made a bigger splash then the Phantom ever had.

No.

The effects on the meta that TLT has is nothing like what the effects of the Phantom had.

How can you say this when the Phantom never won Worlds including pre-nerf era. TLTs won Worlds right away. Even after the nerf to the Phantom, fat PWTs still was dominating and didn't stop them from being the popular choice until the MOV change.

The Phantom was the rock to the swarms scissor to the PWT paper. TLTs have already made a bigger splash then the Phantom ever had.

uh, TLTs did not win worlds

you can't think that that little 24 point Y-wing somehow pulled more weight than V.I regen Poe and r3-a2

"Rookie Pilot needs to be nerfed, he won Worlds!"