Their big weakness is 3-agility ships, which is partially where the Thunderstruck variant of that list came from (4x AC Tempest with Cluster Missiles).

That's practically saying that their main weakness is dealing with about half of the common competitive lists.

Empire: pretty much everything flown competitively but Palp shuttle and Decimators has 3 dice.

Scum: only 2 really competitive lists, Brobots and 4 TLTs, one of them has 3 dice on all ships.

Rebels: here it's getting better for AC Tempests. Corran has 3 dice, A-wings have 3 dice, Poe has almost 3 dice, but then you have k-wings, Y-Wings, Dash and even Fat Han.

Still, a ship that struggles with 3 green dice enemies will have difficulties to be competitive IMO, even without TLTs. Hell, probably even more so without TLT, as a fair bit of the 1 agility ships would be gone too.

True. 2-dice attacks versus 3-dice defenses - especially from lower PS - rarely ends well. Hence the Cluster Missile concept.

A list of pure AC Tempests was never a super-awesome idea, anyway. They should have been the kind of ship that you could mix in as a solid blocker who was hard to kill and had mediocre offense you could rely on. They may yet get back to that point, but it's hard to imagine now.

Tbh, I don't think TLT killed the 1 AC Tempest in a list idea, but rather the multitude of TIE/fo (and TIE/ln) pocket aces. A Tempest starts at 21 points. So does Omega Leader.

But he's loaded out to 26 typically. It's a contributing factor, but I think people played it a few times against Soontir and realized that 2 dice, even when they're always 2 hits have a ton of trouble punching through Aces.

In the ~20 point range I'd rather have an AC Tempest than the 12 PS guy or the 2 distance barrel roll guy or naked Zeta Leader. I'd rather have an Autothruster Alpha than a 20 point FO.

But he's loaded out to 26 typically. It's a contributing factor, but I think people played it a few times against Soontir and realized that 2 dice, even when they're always 2 hits have a ton of trouble punching through Aces.

You know, something I was thinking about this morning in regards to Soontir and how a chunk of the meta insists that you need TLTs as a counter to him and other tough-to-crack aces... but what are people's thoughts on an A-Wing (whatever pilot a person wants) fitted with Juke and Crackshot? I mean if all you're looking to do is break that Stealth Device, it seems like it actually might go a good way towards doing that if you can get them in arc. I mean you can get a Green Squadron for 20 points if you do it right, or Jake Farrell for 25. And the rebels are chock full of other additions to the list that could give the lower PS pilots additional actions if they have to chase arc-dodgers down. I mean, I don't really play rebels so I'm somewhat unfamiliar with all the list possibilities. Lando comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others...

From my experience, TLT counter aces in 2 circumstances:

Miranda for Rebels

Anything with an R4 Agromech for Scum.

Your average R2/Unhinged astromech TLT Y-wing struggles a lot with 3 green and Autothrusters.

But he's loaded out to 26 typically. It's a contributing factor, but I think people played it a few times against Soontir and realized that 2 dice, even when they're always 2 hits have a ton of trouble punching through Aces.

You know, something I was thinking about this morning in regards to Soontir and how a chunk of the meta insists that you need TLTs as a counter to him and other tough-to-crack aces... but what are people's thoughts on an A-Wing (whatever pilot a person wants) fitted with Juke and Crackshot? I mean if all you're looking to do is break that Stealth Device, it seems like it actually might go a good way towards doing that if you can get them in arc. I mean you can get a Green Squadron for 20 points if you do it right, or Jake Farrell for 25. And the rebels are chock full of other additions to the list that could give the lower PS pilots additional actions if they have to chase arc-dodgers down. I mean, I don't really play rebels so I'm somewhat unfamiliar with all the list possibilities. Lando comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others...

You could just use Blount to strip the stealth device.

If there's anything so criminally (heh) underappreciated apart from xizor, it's the r4 TLT thug

If there's anything so criminally (heh) underappreciated apart from xizor, it's the r4 TLT thug

2of them with a 48 point brobot is pretty nasty.

Or ptl k4 EU kath

Everyone runs; everyone dies

But he's loaded out to 26 typically. It's a contributing factor, but I think people played it a few times against Soontir and realized that 2 dice, even when they're always 2 hits have a ton of trouble punching through Aces.

You know, something I was thinking about this morning in regards to Soontir and how a chunk of the meta insists that you need TLTs as a counter to him and other tough-to-crack aces... but what are people's thoughts on an A-Wing (whatever pilot a person wants) fitted with Juke and Crackshot? I mean if all you're looking to do is break that Stealth Device, it seems like it actually might go a good way towards doing that if you can get them in arc. I mean you can get a Green Squadron for 20 points if you do it right, or Jake Farrell for 25. And the rebels are chock full of other additions to the list that could give the lower PS pilots additional actions if they have to chase arc-dodgers down. I mean, I don't really play rebels so I'm somewhat unfamiliar with all the list possibilities. Lando comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others...

You could just use Blount to strip the stealth device.

In theory, yes, but I've played a lot of games as Soontir and Whisper where I've very easily killed Blount before he could ever shoot. With the Evade and extra agility (plus their being more of them), it seems to me in theory that the A-Wings would be much better at it than him. Those traits seem to go a long way towards them surviving to get that one shot. Plus, I think the A's would aid the player much better throughout the length of the tournament. I doubt Mr. One Trick Pony would be all that helpful for his points over the course of the entire day.

From my experience, TLT counter aces in 2 circumstances:

Miranda for Rebels

Anything with an R4 Agromech for Scum.

Your average R2/Unhinged astromech TLT Y-wing struggles a lot with 3 green and Autothrusters.

That's been my experience as well, maybe I don't play against them often enough, but every time I have soontir against TLT's I feel pretty good.

Store Championship yesterday in Florida had 52 people. In the top 8 were 3 lists with 4 tlt ywings. In addition in the top 8, I had 3 tlt ywings and Ndru and the winner had 3 tlts, but it was Miranda, 1 regular tlt ywing and 1 stressbot. I faced quad tlts in the quarter and semi finals and only beat them because I had 3 of my own. Florida meta may be an anomaly, but they were frustrating veterans yesterday.

That being said, 2 of my TLTs do have the R4 agro (he is so awesome), but PTL, Stealth Device, Autothrustering ships, especially with palpatine backing them up, tend to shrug off all the tlt. Argo is the only way I was finally able to wear that down.

Store Championship yesterday in Florida had 52 people. In the top 8 were 3 lists with 4 tlt ywings. In addition in the top 8, I had 3 tlt ywings and Ndru and the winner had 3 tlts, but it was Miranda, 1 regular tlt ywing and 1 stressbot. I faced quad tlts in the quarter and semi finals and only beat them because I had 3 of my own. Florida meta may be an anomaly, but they were frustrating veterans yesterday.

That being said, 2 of my TLTs do have the R4 agro (he is so awesome), but PTL, Stealth Device, Autothrustering ships, especially with palpatine backing them up, tend to shrug off all the tlt. Argo is the only way I was finally able to wear that down.

TLTs were all over that tournament yesterday, there were several other lists that did not make the cut that also had TLTs. The 2 kwing TLT tactician poe list, the miranda jans ors b wing list, and a few others.

See it's a plague.

We're doom! Doom, I tell ya!! Doom!!!!!

But he's loaded out to 26 typically. It's a contributing factor, but I think people played it a few times against Soontir and realized that 2 dice, even when they're always 2 hits have a ton of trouble punching through Aces.

You know, something I was thinking about this morning in regards to Soontir and how a chunk of the meta insists that you need TLTs as a counter to him and other tough-to-crack aces... but what are people's thoughts on an A-Wing (whatever pilot a person wants) fitted with Juke and Crackshot? I mean if all you're looking to do is break that Stealth Device, it seems like it actually might go a good way towards doing that if you can get them in arc. I mean you can get a Green Squadron for 20 points if you do it right, or Jake Farrell for 25. And the rebels are chock full of other additions to the list that could give the lower PS pilots additional actions if they have to chase arc-dodgers down. I mean, I don't really play rebels so I'm somewhat unfamiliar with all the list possibilities. Lando comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others...

But he's loaded out to 26 typically. It's a contributing factor, but I think people played it a few times against Soontir and realized that 2 dice, even when they're always 2 hits have a ton of trouble punching through Aces.

You know, something I was thinking about this morning in regards to Soontir and how a chunk of the meta insists that you need TLTs as a counter to him and other tough-to-crack aces... but what are people's thoughts on an A-Wing (whatever pilot a person wants) fitted with Juke and Crackshot? I mean if all you're looking to do is break that Stealth Device, it seems like it actually might go a good way towards doing that if you can get them in arc. I mean you can get a Green Squadron for 20 points if you do it right, or Jake Farrell for 25. And the rebels are chock full of other additions to the list that could give the lower PS pilots additional actions if they have to chase arc-dodgers down. I mean, I don't really play rebels so I'm somewhat unfamiliar with all the list possibilities. Lando comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others...

One problem there is that you've got no PTL, so assuming you've Evaded to proc Juke you're just throwing two naked attack dice, albeit with the ability to remove up to two Evades if Soontir's run out of Focus tokens. Also: at PS 3 there's a better-than-average chance that you'll have been shot at before you fire and put in the tricky position of deciding whether to spend your Evade or not. So you'd probably want more than one to get the job done, at which point you're looking at 40-44 points of your list spent on what's pretty much a one-trick pony.

Thing is though that they might also do very well in a TLT rich meta. Juke pretty much ensures that the Y-wings are never going to evade anything unless they focused, and then chances are you are gonna make them spend it so they at least can't modify their attack with it. So it's more of a list I think that might work fairly well, but it will take skill to make it work. And chances are that most turns you're in range one of at least one or two of them, which is a few shots you won't have to worry about. So I think maybe it's not so much a hard counter as a list that gives you tools and options but you've still gotta work them out yourself. Also Garvin might make a great support ship for the list.

I can attest to the magic of essentially 0 agility via juke

also works very well against the palp shuttle

what it doesn't work well on is soontir/poke (unless you're Omega Leader )

I can attest to the magic of essentially 0 agility via juke

also works very well against the palp shuttle

what it doesn't work well on is soontir/poke (unless you're Omega Leader )

Soontir fears the third Juke shot.

And every reposition he uses to evade an arc is one less shot before he starts afearin'.

I can attest to the magic of essentially 0 agility via juke

also works very well against the palp shuttle

what it doesn't work well on is soontir/poke (unless you're Omega Leader )

Soontir fears the third Juke shot.

And every reposition he uses to evade an arc is one less shot before he starts afearin'.

considering the max amount of juke FOs you can fit in a list is 4, that's a whole lot of not fearing

Idea: 5x Autothruster Alpha. Too late with that suggestion since wave 8 is around the corner but still. It does a good job against TLT and also deals decently with T-70 aces.

How does the triple U-Boat list deal with quad TLT? Any Vassal players with experience? You should be able to wipe a Y-Wing. If you get all 3 of your torps to do 4/4 hits, even with perfect 1/1 evade rolls he's losing a Y-Wing. A turn or two later repeat the same thing.

Idea: 5x Autothruster Alpha. Too late with that suggestion since wave 8 is around the corner but still. It does a good job against TLT and also deals decently with T-70 aces.

How does the triple U-Boat list deal with quad TLT? Any Vassal players with experience? You should be able to wipe a Y-Wing. If you get all 3 of your torps to do 4/4 hits, even with perfect 1/1 evade rolls he's losing a Y-Wing. A turn or two later repeat the same thing.

You're almost certain to PS-kill a Y-wing in the first round of engagement. Then the TLTs have no good options for the second round: either they rush to Range 1, where you have a big advantage, or they hang back and get pummeled by a second volley of torpedoes. The first option sucks for the Y-wings, but at least it sucks less, and that's another half-dead Y-wing. The round after that the JumpMasters have the option of S-looping to the left without losing actions, and the Y-wings probably turn away. The torpedo boats have the chance to PS kill another Y-wing, here (especially if range works out so there's at least one more torpedo), after which it's all downhill for the TLTs.

But, then, quad TLTs already aren't a hard list to beat, so the fact that they get badly beaten by a new list isn't likely to change things much...

Idea: 5x Autothruster Alpha. Too late with that suggestion since wave 8 is around the corner but still. It does a good job against TLT and also deals decently with T-70 aces.

How does the triple U-Boat list deal with quad TLT? Any Vassal players with experience? You should be able to wipe a Y-Wing. If you get all 3 of your torps to do 4/4 hits, even with perfect 1/1 evade rolls he's losing a Y-Wing. A turn or two later repeat the same thing.

What is the u boat build? I'm drawing a blank

Idea: 5x Autothruster Alpha. Too late with that suggestion since wave 8 is around the corner but still. It does a good job against TLT and also deals decently with T-70 aces.

How does the triple U-Boat list deal with quad TLT? Any Vassal players with experience? You should be able to wipe a Y-Wing. If you get all 3 of your torps to do 4/4 hits, even with perfect 1/1 evade rolls he's losing a Y-Wing. A turn or two later repeat the same thing.

What is the u boat build? I'm drawing a blank

Three generic JumpMaster 5000s, outfitted with Proton Torpedoes (or possibly Plasma Torpeoes), Extra Munitions, and either R4 Agromech or Deadeye + Recon Specialist.

That the ship has 9 agility means that even the most treacherous of dice can't kill it in a single turn.

The same cannot be said so safely of the Y-wings.

That the ship has 9 agility means that even the most treacherous of dice can't kill it in a single turn.

The same cannot be said so safely of the Y-wings.

Idea: 5x Autothruster Alpha. Too late with that suggestion since wave 8 is around the corner but still. It does a good job against TLT and also deals decently with T-70 aces.

How does the triple U-Boat list deal with quad TLT? Any Vassal players with experience? You should be able to wipe a Y-Wing. If you get all 3 of your torps to do 4/4 hits, even with perfect 1/1 evade rolls he's losing a Y-Wing. A turn or two later repeat the same thing.

What is the u boat build? I'm drawing a blank

Three generic JumpMaster 5000s, outfitted with Proton Torpedoes (or possibly Plasma Torpeoes), Extra Munitions, and either R4 Agromech or Deadeye + Recon Specialist.

It's significant because triple U-Boat should also have good matchups against a lot of Acewing builds so running it early on in wave 8's meta will be without risk of hard counter matchups. I can build a 60 point Boba that can deal with aces well but as soon as I face a TLT based squad Boba is effectively just a 60 point B-Wing with 2 extra health. Likewise one can build some quad Green Squadron Predator list that hard counters TLT that can't really do any damage to an ace. Having a squad that has a good matchup against both means you can run it without getting a sh*tty matchup.

U-Boats also have good matchups against the inevitable super Dengar Rendar and all green Super Dash. Of they're not in arc for your torps just plink them to death with your primary turrets after nuking their escort.

IMO instead of extra munitions you could run Flechette Torpedoes and be better for it. If it has 4 hull just drop 3 stress on it.