While that is a valid precedence and I would not object to a change to TLT (though only a minor one, since it by far isn't the problem people make it appear to be), I will state a counter argument anyways: With Expert Handling they were fixing the card to work as intended.

Still, the example shows that given sufficient reason, the designers will change the print on a card. That does not say much, since we don't really know what constitutes sufficient reason. Original intent may or may not be the deciding factor.

I think adding the words "free" and "action" to a card to satisfy rules lawyers is a poor example to allow a change to TLT

TLT needs no change

what we really need is wave 8 so we can move on and I can stop reading this thread out of boredom

Expert Handling was completely broken when it was released--as in, it doesn't function at all. TLT works just fine.

Ah no... no erratta for tlt... thread closed....

Ah no... no erratta for tlt... thread closed....

Careful, as the same was said about the Phantom.

Honestly I have a feeling Tlt nerf won't happen. FFG doesn't nerf overnight, so they won't nerf it before Imperial Veterans hit. And then we'll all be knee-deep in Defender whining.

Honestly I have a feeling Tlt nerf won't happen. FFG doesn't nerf overnight, so they won't nerf it before Imperial Veterans hit. And then we'll all be knee-deep in Defender whining.

It won't happen because ordnance will blow them out of the water.

Can't wait to see the 'Ordnances are OP!!!! Need to be nerfed!!!!' Threads... It will be so... Weird...

Honestly I have a feeling Tlt nerf won't happen. FFG doesn't nerf overnight, so they won't nerf it before Imperial Veterans hit. And then we'll all be knee-deep in Defender whining.

It won't happen because ordnance will blow them out of the water.

I've been testing it they really wont.

Honestly I have a feeling Tlt nerf won't happen. FFG doesn't nerf overnight, so they won't nerf it before Imperial Veterans hit. And then we'll all be knee-deep in Defender whining.

It won't happen because ordnance will blow them out of the water.

I've been testing it they really wont.

With triple U-boat you can delete one outright.

What ordnance list did you test? Quad Gammas, quad HM's, quad EM, quad chips?

Can't wait to see the 'Ordnances are OP!!!! Need to be nerfed!!!!' Threads... It will be so... Weird...

Can't wait to see the 'Ordnances are OP!!!! Need to be nerfed!!!!' Threads... It will be so... Weird...

In all fairness, it should be made clear that this thread was not a kind of 'tlts are OP!!! Need to be nerfed!!!'

I was not referencing to this thread in particular, but those kind of threads are pretty common with each new release... Kinda like a package deal.

Can't wait to see the 'Ordnances are OP!!!! Need to be nerfed!!!!' Threads... It will be so... Weird...

In all fairness, it should be made clear that this thread was not a kind of 'tlts are OP!!! Need to be nerfed!!!'

Wasn't it? The title suggests that tlt needs an errata and is asking if it'll happen after this tournament season concludes, presumably providing the evidence to back his claim. The OP compares tlt to the pre-nerf phantom.

Just because he says he isn't complaining or wanting a nerf doesn't mean he didn't just do the opposite. That's like prefacing a statement with "I'm not racist, but..."

Can't wait to see the 'Ordnances are OP!!!! Need to be nerfed!!!!' Threads... It will be so... Weird...

In all fairness, it should be made clear that this thread was not a kind of 'tlts are OP!!! Need to be nerfed!!!'

Off topic, and since this thread will keep on going anyways.

..

My fiancee got me Citadels, and I see the Architect card and I go "I've seen this image before..." It's your profile pic!

Great game btw.

Can't wait to see the 'Ordnances are OP!!!! Need to be nerfed!!!!' Threads... It will be so... Weird...

In all fairness, it should be made clear that this thread was not a kind of 'tlts are OP!!! Need to be nerfed!!!'

Wasn't it? The title suggests that tlt needs an errata and is asking if it'll happen after this tournament season concludes, presumably providing the evidence to back his claim. The OP compares tlt to the pre-nerf phantom.

Just because he says he isn't complaining or wanting a nerf doesn't mean he didn't just do the opposite. That's like prefacing a statement with "I'm not racist, but..."

Not necessarily. The question I posed to the forums was if this is trend that can be predicted, not if something should be done.

But of course no one reads the actual post, just the thread title, and I've been able to have more success if the title draws more attention than the actual post, and therein lies why 29 pages later we're still talking about it.

I mentioned a few pages back that someone finally answered my actual question, pointing to their experience in other games in which hot topics like this one were a clear sign that there was a balance issue.

And what is my personal goal in getting an answer? I have a list that involves TLT that I really like, and I'm wondering if when Wave 8 hits I should scrap it for something else during Regionals prep in case something like last year (when I was flying Phantoms right before the nerf) happens.

Can't wait to see the 'Ordnances are OP!!!! Need to be nerfed!!!!' Threads... It will be so... Weird...

In all fairness, it should be made clear that this thread was not a kind of 'tlts are OP!!! Need to be nerfed!!!'

Wasn't it? The title suggests that tlt needs an errata and is asking if it'll happen after this tournament season concludes, presumably providing the evidence to back his claim. The OP compares tlt to the pre-nerf phantom.

Just because he says he isn't complaining or wanting a nerf doesn't mean he didn't just do the opposite. That's like prefacing a statement with "I'm not racist, but..."

Not necessarily. The question I posed to the forums was if this is trend that can be predicted, not if something should be done.

But of course no one reads the actual post, just the thread title, and I've been able to have more success if the title draws more attention than the actual post, and therein lies why 29 pages later we're still talking about it.

I mentioned a few pages back that someone finally answered my actual question, pointing to their experience in other games in which hot topics like this one were a clear sign that there was a balance issue.

And what is my personal goal in getting an answer? I have a list that involves TLT that I really like, and I'm wondering if when Wave 8 hits I should scrap it for something else during Regionals prep in case something like last year (when I was flying Phantoms right before the nerf) happens.

The problem I think lies in that many people cannot seperate the TLT from the stresshog and this makes for a muddled conversation. This combined with the tendency of any forum to become hypercritical and partisan about every little thing makes, what appears to me a minor issue into a huge one (at least on the forums). TLT is strong, is it OP? Maybe slightly. Should it be nerfed or erratta'd? in my humble opinion no.

The argument about the stresshog is an entirely different beast as it takes one very powerful card (TLT), combines it with a good card (r3-A2), and a meh card BTL A4 to make a very powerful control mechanic. Control mechanics in almost every game I've played in the last 24 (holy jesus I'm old) years are reviled by a large portion of the playerbase. It's simply human nature that people will not like something that will force them to adapt to mechanic that can stop them from successfully playing how they feel is the right way to play the game. You see this outcry in every successful game. Magic has it's counterspells and denial which stops you from playing that card that will win you the game and it runs through almost every other game out there. Generally speaking game developers ignore the outcry over such control mechanics knowing that it's simply people upset about their favorite tactic being challenged. When it crosses over into an area where you either play x or play the counter to x then you generally will see erratta, nerfs or at worst bans of the combo in question.

I don't believe that TLT or stresshog have reached the point where they deserve (for balance's sake) to be nerfed or erratta'd. I'm seeing it as a powerful card that is used for various reasons, has drawbacks and can be beaten even by lists that if you believe the regular forum goers here can't beat TLT. Last SC I was at I faced a grand total of 1 list that had a stresshog in it and it never got a shot on Soontir or Vader. (It ate the shuttle for lunch though) but adjusting your play style to account for that piece is required.

TLDR: No I don't think it will be nerfed or erratta'd at least for now.

Can't wait to see the 'Ordnances are OP!!!! Need to be nerfed!!!!' Threads... It will be so... Weird...

In all fairness, it should be made clear that this thread was not a kind of 'tlts are OP!!! Need to be nerfed!!!'

Wasn't it? The title suggests that tlt needs an errata and is asking if it'll happen after this tournament season concludes, presumably providing the evidence to back his claim. The OP compares tlt to the pre-nerf phantom.

Just because he says he isn't complaining or wanting a nerf doesn't mean he didn't just do the opposite. That's like prefacing a statement with "I'm not racist, but..."

I see some parallels with the discussion about pre-nerf Phantoms, but that is not the same as saying both are equally OP, or even that both are OP at all.

I'm going to sidestep the racism comparison because I don't think it is warranted.

The question I posed to the forums was if this is trend that can be predicted, not if something should be done.

But of course no one reads the actual post, just the thread title, and I've been able to have more success if the title draws more attention than the actual post, and therein lies why 29 pages later we're still talking about it.

I mentioned a few pages back that someone finally answered my actual question, pointing to their experience in other games in which hot topics like this one were a clear sign that there was a balance issue.

And what is my personal goal in getting an answer? I have a list that involves TLT that I really like, and I'm wondering if when Wave 8 hits I should scrap it for something else during Regionals prep in case something like last year (when I was flying Phantoms right before the nerf) happens.

MajorJuggler and I both posted relevant responses... days ago. If you assume FFG recognizes there's a moderate balance issue with TLT, it's still not clear what they'll do or how long it'll take them to act. In the past they've been very reluctant to issue errata except in the case of actually non-functional game elements. We can look at the Phantom balance change as a model, but theres not really a parallel for TLTs.

And in addition, the metagame is likely to change with he release of Wave 8, and it'll take a while for it to settle again. It's my opinion that Guidance Chips and the forthcoming Long-Range Sensors are going to hit back hard against TLT carriers, so it's probably worth waiting to see if the TLT problem (or "problem", depending on your perspective) persists. Given the timescale, I can't see FFG issuing errata before Worlds, if they do at all.

If the choice is between changing a card or having to release multiple cards to "counter" it, or going to xwing 2.0... then I'm in favor of changing 1 card.

I DON'T THINK WE'RE THERE. I DON'T THINK TLT WILL EVEN GET THERE.

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For breakfast I'm having Chia Seed Pudding with Vanilla Almond Milk and Thai Tea Flavoring. It pairs nicely with my Medium Roast Costa Rican coffee (black of course).

Ah no... no erratta for tlt... thread closed....

Careful, as the same was said about the Phantom.

* - The general, rhetorical "you", not you, the sensible person whose post I'm quoting to make a point about this line of argument.

The question I posed to the forums was if this is trend that can be predicted, not if something should be done.

But of course no one reads the actual post, just the thread title, and I've been able to have more success if the title draws more attention than the actual post, and therein lies why 29 pages later we're still talking about it.

I mentioned a few pages back that someone finally answered my actual question, pointing to their experience in other games in which hot topics like this one were a clear sign that there was a balance issue.

And what is my personal goal in getting an answer? I have a list that involves TLT that I really like, and I'm wondering if when Wave 8 hits I should scrap it for something else during Regionals prep in case something like last year (when I was flying Phantoms right before the nerf) happens.

MajorJuggler and I both posted relevant responses... days ago. If you assume FFG recognizes there's a moderate balance issue with TLT, it's still not clear what they'll do or how long it'll take them to act. In the past they've been very reluctant to issue errata except in the case of actually non-functional game elements. We can look at the Phantom balance change as a model, but theres not really a parallel for TLTs.

And in addition, the metagame is likely to change with he release of Wave 8, and it'll take a while for it to settle again. It's my opinion that Guidance Chips and the forthcoming Long-Range Sensors are going to hit back hard against TLT carriers, so it's probably worth waiting to see if the TLT problem (or "problem", depending on your perspective) persists. Given the timescale, I can't see FFG issuing errata before Worlds, if they do at all.

Sorry if I was insinuating that no one else gave any insightful feedback. Your responses made it clear it was hard to tell what (if any) action would be taken, and that it would be wise to wait for the upcoming releases to see how the meta settles.

I actually got into a really interesting conversation last night about ordinance strikes and what kind of effect they will have. With the JM5K PS3 torpedo boats gaining popularity, PS2/expensive ace lists might be hard to consider, leaving room for some of the middle PS pilots with great abilities a foot in the competitive field as a counter to this archetype.

I'm looking forward to Wave 8!

Quad TLT, while boring to play against, is not so over powered that it warrants this level of ridiculousness. Is it dominating store championships? No. Did it smash it at worlds? No. Is it wrecking local metas so terribly much that we all have no chance and should just abandon going to game night? No. It is powerful, very few will debate that, but it can be beat fairly easily so long as you are bringing something to the table to help deal with them or you are planning your maneuvers well. It is just like any of the other meta defining combos/cards: prepare for them and you'll have a decent chance.

Quad TLT, while boring to play against, is not so over powered that it warrants this level of ridiculousness. Is it dominating store championships? No. Did it smash it at worlds? No. Is it wrecking local metas so terribly much that we all have no chance and should just abandon going to game night? No. It is powerful, very few will debate that, but it can be beat fairly easily so long as you are bringing something to the table to help deal with them or you are planning your maneuvers well. It is just like any of the other meta defining combos/cards: prepare for them and you'll have a decent chance.

Actually, I think this is at least part of the issue: a lot of the X-wing players don't want to have to prepare for it. A lot of X-wing players don't really care what the opponent's 'it' is. They just want to put some ships on the table, roll some dice and have fun.

TLT doesn't seem to generate most of the outrage from competitive players, but from casuals (seems so to me anyway)

It won't happen because ordnance will blow them out of the water.

I've been testing it they really wont.

You must be trying different lists than I've seen in action. But, really, my comment was more about letting Wave 8 have a chance to see if it can shake things up. I'm saying that as a player that isn't a big fan of TLTs in general.

Actually, I think this is at least part of the issue: a lot of the X-wing players don't want to have to prepare for it. A lot of X-wing players don't really care what the opponent's 'it' is. They just want to put some ships on the table, roll some dice and have fun.

TLT doesn't seem to generate most of the outrage from competitive players, but from casuals (seems so to me anyway).

I consider myself a competitive player, and I loathe the things. Not because they are unbeatable - I beat a quad TLT list at Worlds with my sub-par Brobot build - but because their existence in the meta renders other ships un-competitive to the point of ridiculousness.

How long did we wait for a TIE Advanced fix? Two years? Three? Then, scant weeks after we got it, it was essentially invalidated by TLTs. B-Wings? Virtually extinct. Not only are TLT Y's more cost efficient for what they do, they make mincemeat of B's. What a difference 12 months makes; this time last year B's were everywhere.

I could go on. That is my frustration with TLT Y's: they are so common, so prevalent, so pervasive, and so powerful that they choke other ships out of the game.

There have been lots of arguments throughout the thread about how the TLT Stresshog is ridiculous, and I agree. But that gripe pales in comparison beside my frustration with Scum and Rebel lists starting with "I'll take a couple of TLTs, and then..."

I live in hope that the Defender fixes will largely cut them down to size, but who knows when that will actually occur? In the meantime, the era of Twin Laser Tyranny continues.

Advanced gone? I see Vaders everywhere. Beyond that, even without TlT I fail to see what a 2nd Advanced (if you have only one is go Vader or go home IMO) would do in a competitive list to be worth taking instead of Soontir, Carnor, Omega Leader and soon Inquisitor.

B-wings have fallen out of favor, given,but before TLT, when 'B-wings were everywhere', how many Y-Wings did you see? What reason was there to take one instead of a B-wing?

Advanced gone? I see Vaders everywhere. Beyond that, even without TlT I fail to see what a 2nd Advanced (if you have only one is go Vader or go home IMO) would do in a competitive list to be worth taking instead of Soontir, Carnor, Omega Leader and soon Inquisitor.

B-wings have fallen out of favor, given,but before TLT, when 'B-wings were everywhere', how many Y-Wings did you see? What reason was there to take one instead of a B-wing?

Sure, you see Vader. And... who else? Accuracy Corrected Tempests are some of the most cost efficient ships in the game for what they do, but they were basically dead on arrival. How often do you see Juno? 1 game in 100? Maarek? Colzet? Vader is pretty much it, because he can afford to keep up his offensive output while token-ing up each round and hoping for good green dice while he tries to squeeze inside the TLT bubble. Given some of the other Advanced pilot abilities, it's just a bloody crime.

Y's came back in vogue as soon as the BTL title was released with Most Wanted. Recall that original Stresshog variant was ICT and R3-A2; they were all over the place last regional season. (I had to kill a lot of them with my Brobots.) Even regular Warthogs with ICTs were popular. Rebel control lists had to start making choices between B's and Y's, ICTs and Ion Cannons, R3-A2 and Tactician. Some folks mixed everything into one list; some went all one way, some the other. I saw a lot of variants across the different regionals I attended.