Vorpal, I agree in general. And I don't mean to advocate that it shouldn't exist/be allowed, just that it has a significant (imo, generally positive) impact on the game.

I do think saying "they still get a maneuver and an attack" is a huge understatement though. The generic versions get that too, and don't pay the premium on cost. Taking the Ace out of your Ace is a pretty huge hit.

I also think saying something like "It's a Y-Wing and can easily be arc-dodged" is very dismissive and implies that the Stresshog is a gimmick, which it is not. It is a significant control piece.

Any less significant than a Soontir Fel? Just because it has a significant impact doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. Blocking and jamming things up with a swarm is a superb tactic in general and it often kills a lot of things limiting maneuvers. We don't need a nerf on blocking.

I don't understand what you are responding to. I explicitly said I don't think it needed to be nerfed. and that it had a positive impact on the game.

As for the straw man, no blocking is fine too.

yeah, I guess I misunderstood you a bit there. I'm pretty new to X-wing over the last 2 months, and it amuses me that people ever thought that blocking wasn't supposed to be a part of the game or that it might need to be nerfed. I'm guessing that people want to at least be able to perform actions. But I suppose that's why certain upgrades and pilots have abilities that can overcome a bump.

As to the general question of the OP, I'm hoping that it's not nerfed. I may be new to X-wing, but I've played MMOs, and I've had enough of the "nerf this, nerf that," discussion. People do and will always gravitate to what works. If you nerf TLTs, then something else will just become equally whined about.

The game never used to be filled with invincible ships that could only ever be damaged if their actions were denied by blocking. It was never seen as a necessity then.

TIE swarms also used to be at the top of the meta, so I suppose people could get pissed when they paid extra points to out bid Academy Pilots in PS just to have their opponent gain an advantage from having lower pilot skill anyways.

The argument is ridiculous but it was probably a little more understandable when it was seen less as a necessity and more of an annoyance and abuse of the fact that with plastic models you can't overlap.

I vaguely remember a thread like that when I first started coming here but I forgot any of the arguments.

Vice:

Actually that is not 100% true. It's like rolling a die. No matter how many times you roll it, you have the same chance of getting a crit your looking for. You are trying to say that since it may be picked as a face down card your chance drops, that is not the case. The chance of getting the card on every draw still remains the same. What happens is that because your deck is smaller you assume the chance goes up, but that is not the case.

Because we don't know if the cards have been drawn or not since they are facedown. If we see one of those cards face up then the chance drops because there are not as many cards left in the deck. But since we don't know exactly what cards are drawn each time. You are assuming some may have been drawn, but you don't know for sure.

Your website focuses on types of cards, ships, pilot, etc. Not actually crits and is not 100% correct, because we don't know what is left in the deck. If all cards were turn over and we knew them, then the website would be correct in this case.

You are correct about making the TLT players switch to the old deck, but it's same for the Swarm players with no high ps pilots. You help mitigate damage slightly, but the ability to not cancel a defense die at range 3 since it is no longer a secondary weapon, more than compensates for that. IMO

Davey said turrets need to be examined (Something similar to that)

Probably going to see defenders get an extra green die if they are outside of your arc for all turrets.

so, basically nothing

Davey said turrets need to be examined (Something similar to that)

Probably going to see defenders get an extra green die if they are outside of your arc for all turrets.

That would have no affect on Y wings with TLT and title. It's my opinion but the spamming of that combo is at the heart of the TLT needs a nerf conversations.

, then something else will just become equally whined about.

How nice of you to call people voicing concerns whiners. Do you do that to all people, or just those you don't agree with?

Davey said turrets need to be examined (Something similar to that)

Probably going to see defenders get an extra green die if they are outside of your arc for all turrets.

That would have no affect on Y wings with TLT and title. It's my opinion but the spamming of that combo is at the heart of the TLT needs a nerf conversations.

In which case, the easiest thing is to target the enabling piece. Not the turret, not the droid, have a look at the title. That is how they've balanced the Defender/d title, it only works with cannons cheaper than an HLC.

Just tack a "that costs 5 or less squadpoints" on the end of the BTL-A4 title. You can still use the stresshog, but take away the range 3 band.

, then something else will just become equally whined about.

How nice of you to call people voicing concerns whiners. Do you do that to all people, or just those you don't agree with?

Just the ones I don't agree with Bet seriously, I could go on and on about rebel regen for example and how the Imps don't have any and how it's pretty overpowerd on a pilot like Poe and Miranda if flown well with how much more hull, shields and red dice they have over some imperials lists. I'm just saying that you could complain about anything if you face it enough and you get annoyed by it. As an example, I like TLT, because it give me an opportunity to maintain consistent fire on ships that regen over and over.

Davey said turrets need to be examined (Something similar to that)

Probably going to see defenders get an extra green die if they are outside of your arc for all turrets.

Where did he actually say that? I saw the one podcast where he said he was surprised by their popularity, but I haven't seen him actually propose changes.

Davey said turrets need to be examined (Something similar to that)

Probably going to see defenders get an extra green die if they are outside of your arc for all turrets.

That would have no affect on Y wings with TLT and title. It's my opinion but the spamming of that combo is at the heart of the TLT needs a nerf conversations.

I disagree. I think the Droid/Title/TLT thing is fine and good to have. It is not without it's drawbacks and only messes up Aces, which are currently dominating the game anyway. I see it as an important counter, same as Omega Leader or Crackshot.

I do wonder if TLT by itself is a little too efficient. It probably is, by a point or two, especially if you believe MJ's math (which I do). But I think the Wave 8 stuff will mostly solve that issue, so I am willing to wait and see. If anything, I am more afraid the TIE Defender titles will be too much.

The Defender titles are certainly strong, but they should be. For what the ship costs and its place in X-Wing lore, it should be feared.

Davey said turrets need to be examined (Something similar to that)

Probably going to see defenders get an extra green die if they are outside of your arc for all turrets.

That would have no affect on Y wings with TLT and title. It's my opinion but the spamming of that combo is at the heart of the TLT needs a nerf conversations.

I disagree. I think the Droid/Title/TLT thing is fine and good to have. It is not without it's drawbacks and only messes up Aces, which are currently dominating the game anyway. I see it as an important counter, same as Omega Leader or Crackshot.

I do wonder if TLT by itself is a little too efficient. It probably is, by a point or two, especially if you believe MJ's math (which I do). But I think the Wave 8 stuff will mostly solve that issue, so I am willing to wait and see. If anything, I am more afraid the TIE Defender titles will be too much.

What are you disagreeing with?

I agree the TLT stressbot is a good counter to action dependent aces. I personally have no problem with the combo.

I think the issue that is causing the debate is the spamming of the TLT/Title/R2 or unhinged astromech combo. I'm not sure if that combo is OP but I understand how people can think it is.

I think a lot of the issues are created by Autothrusters. The game is defined by who can take them and who can't. Ships that can take autothrusters have a rational time dealing with TLTs (maybe too rational), but the ships that cannot take autothrusters have an irrational time dealing with TLTs. Soontir laughs at TLTs, while Vader dies really fast.

Let any ship that takes an engine upgrade also buy autothrusters. Maybe even charge an extra point or two for the privilege. Release a new modification, "Super engine" for 7 points that is effectively both an engine and autothrusters.

Autothrusters is frankly too good, and it's created 2 classes of ships in the game. Allow the have nots access to anti TLT tech, and I suspect things will balance out a little.

Yugh no. AT are a reaction to TLT's (or really the Turretwing days). You don't fix a (perceived) problem by adding auto-includes on everyone.

I think a lot of the issues are created by Autothrusters. The game is defined by who can take them and who can't. Ships that can take autothrusters have a rational time dealing with TLTs (maybe too rational), but the ships that cannot take autothrusters have an irrational time dealing with TLTs. Soontir laughs at TLTs, while Vader dies really fast.

Let any ship that takes an engine upgrade also buy autothrusters. Maybe even charge an extra point or two for the privilege. Release a new modification, "Super engine" for 7 points that is effectively both an engine and autothrusters.

Autothrusters is frankly too good, and it's created 2 classes of ships in the game. Allow the have nots access to anti TLT tech, and I suspect things will balance out a little.

NO GOD DAMNIT, Vader does not need autothrusters.

Davey said turrets need to be examined (Something similar to that)

Probably going to see defenders get an extra green die if they are outside of your arc for all turrets.

That would have no affect on Y wings with TLT and title. It's my opinion but the spamming of that combo is at the heart of the TLT needs a nerf conversations.

I disagree. I think the Droid/Title/TLT thing is fine and good to have. It is not without it's drawbacks and only messes up Aces, which are currently dominating the game anyway. I see it as an important counter, same as Omega Leader or Crackshot.

I do wonder if TLT by itself is a little too efficient. It probably is, by a point or two, especially if you believe MJ's math (which I do). But I think the Wave 8 stuff will mostly solve that issue, so I am willing to wait and see. If anything, I am more afraid the TIE Defender titles will be too much.

What are you disagreeing with?

I agree the TLT stressbot is a good counter to action dependent aces. I personally have no problem with the combo.

I think the issue that is causing the debate is the spamming of the TLT/Title/R2 or unhinged astromech combo. I'm not sure if that combo is OP but I understand how people can think it is.

My mistake, when you said droid I assumed you meant the Stressbot. I still don't mind the title + TLT really, but I see where you are coming from. I think the turret (no title) is generally worse, but YMMV.

Making it so that you can't modify out of arc shots could have interesting implications.

What's somewhat more of an issue is the crazy heights damage mit can get to now: you can blank out completely, then Evade/Autothrust/Palpify and you have three evades. The two the Fat Falcon could put out was enough to create the Fat Han epidemic.

I'd personally like to see a few EPTs in the vein of Omega Leader that aid in nailing an overmitigating ship or screwing with aces in general.

Crippling Shot, EPT

ca. 4 points

When you perform an attack against a ship in your firing arc that hits, you may receive one stress token and discard this card to cancel all die results. Then assign one stress token and one ion token to the defender.

Challenger, Unique, EPT

ca. 2 points
At the start of your first activation you may choose 1 enemy small or large ship. When attacking, that ship must target you if able. When defending against your chosen target reduce your agility by 1 (to a minimum of 0).

Good grief, is this still going?

RoV

Good grief, is this still going?

RoV

Please. This still can't hold a candle to the last sportsmanship thread.

But an errata to the card in any significant manner without literally reprinting the card is impossible. Cloak could be nerfed because the rules for cloaking and decloaking were not printed on any of the upgrade or pilot cards.

Cloak/Decloak has rule cards that were changed though?

That is a rules supplement, not an upgrade or a pilot card. The example you displayed provides a poor rebuttal to my statement. That was a change to a core mechanic of the gameplay not a reprint and redistribution of a game-piece card. The reason why these supplements and core rulebook can be easily changed in a pen and ink manner is that they fall lower on rule precedence. With pilot and upgrade cards it is harder because the rules on those cards take a higher standing. Yes they can be erattad but not in a power adjustment fashion like cloak was, only in a clarification on rule revision to get the card mechanic to play as it were intended such as daredevil and gunner/luke.

Taking as example another FFG game, Imperial Assault, 5 cards have been errated because those were OP, those were broken compared with the rest. Solution: distribute them on tournament kits as prizes. Take a look to: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2015/12/21/great-change-in-the-galaxy/here, you will find new versions of the cards. The original cards come on a box retail valued of $100. So don't say it is imposible. Just to get a copy of most of those you have to pay $100 even when you have miniatures to play 2 at the same time and there is no expansion blisters. Here in X-Wing you have 2 copies of TLT on a $20 blister.

If it is broken, FFG will change it. I will not decide, I've not said anything about errate it, I've just said it has a good ratio efficiency / cost and because of that a lot of people use it.

Imperial Assault is a much different game than X-wing. First of all it was designed as a pen and paper (although more structured) dungeon crawling game much like Descent. The skirmish was a side component of the game so competitive balance and rules consistency is not that high of a priority as it is in X-wing.

Good grief, is this still going?

RoV

what's sad is I still keep reading it

never thought I'd say it but FFG need to release some Armada news so there would be something interesting to reed and talk about. Maybe when wave 8 is in hand we will see some interesting topics.

That is a rules supplement, not an upgrade or a pilot card. The example you displayed provides a poor rebuttal to my statement.

Allow me to present a better rebuttal then.

Not a rules change, but a clarification AND a reprint of an actual upgrade card.

There's precedence & they have done it before for other FFG games.

Side-note, a friend finally bought the TIE Adv. expansion yesterday and guess which version of the card was inside?

That is a rules supplement, not an upgrade or a pilot card. The example you displayed provides a poor rebuttal to my statement.

Allow me to present a better rebuttal then.

Not a rules change, but a clarification AND a reprint of an actual upgrade card.

There's precedence & they have done it before for other FFG games.

Side-note, a friend finally bought the TIE Adv. expansion yesterday and guess which version of the card was inside?

While that is a valid precedence and I would not object to a change to TLT (though only a minor one, since it by far isn't the problem people make it appear to be), I will state a counter argument anyways: With Expert Handling they were fixing the card to work as intended. They screwed up the wording so it would allow for something not foreseen - understandable, since the system was brand new and the designers inexperienced with it. TLT on the other hand does exactly what it was intended to do - it has grown unpopular, however.

While that is a valid precedence and I would not object to a change to TLT (though only a minor one, since it by far isn't the problem people make it appear to be), I will state a counter argument anyways: With Expert Handling they were fixing the card to work as intended.

While that is a valid precedence and I would not object to a change to TLT (though only a minor one, since it by far isn't the problem people make it appear to be), I will state a counter argument anyways: With Expert Handling they were fixing the card to work as intended.

Still, the example shows that given sufficient reason, the designers will change the print on a card. That does not say much, since we don't really know what constitutes sufficient reason. Original intent may or may not be the deciding factor.

I think adding the words "free" and "action" to a card to satisfy rules lawyers is a poor example to allow a change to TLT

TLT needs no change

what we really need is wave 8 so we can move on and I can stop reading this thread out of boredom

While that is a valid precedence and I would not object to a change to TLT (though only a minor one, since it by far isn't the problem people make it appear to be), I will state a counter argument anyways: With Expert Handling they were fixing the card to work as intended.

Still, the example shows that given sufficient reason, the designers will change the print on a card. That does not say much, since we don't really know what constitutes sufficient reason. Original intent may or may not be the deciding factor.

I think adding the words "free" and "action" to a card to satisfy rules lawyers is a poor example to allow a change to TLT

TLT needs no change