No don't nerf other turrets, just this one. Everyone keeps saying don't reprint. That's why they cannot fix it.

What about Tactician? They didn't reprint and just made it limited. It's a nerf

Same could be done for TLT. No reprint. Just state. This weapon does not count as a secondary weapon.

This fixes it. Yes you have to be at range 2 versus other high Agility Targets, but at range 3 you can still hit the low agility targets which everyone says TLT was designed for.

Simple and Effective. No changes to any other cards, just this one and the problem is solved.

No, it's not simple, as you break the definition of what a secondary weapon is.

'This attack received Range Combat Bonuses as though it were a primary weapon attack'.

The language is not the issue, it's easy to find functional language for the concept. THe issue is whether the concept is appropriate.

I disagree completely with Ceres on this point. People will whine and moan about ANYTHING that challenges their ability to play what they want how they want and win. Counterspell in Magic, Dishonor in Legend of the 5 Rings, the undead ancient guys (Edit: Necrons) from Warhammer 40k. All have had forums screaming about things like this going on for dozens of forum pages. Control is a part of every fully developed game. You may hate it but control is a mechanic that needs to exist. Stresshog is one of the control mechanics in X-wing (how we got on stresshog from the TLT discussion, which is separate, is beyond me).

I've been playing games starting with Magic since I was 8 or 9 (1993) and played many other games since then and it always ends up coming down to those who hate it that they can't have fun and win playing the game how they want to play it so they want to ban, nerf or erratta what other people want to play to ensure that their idea of "fun" isn't challenged or threatened. Most of the time the more successful games ignore the squealing of the ignorant masses that demand the game change to suit them. Games that don't eventually find their games dying out as not even those who want things their way will stay with a game that is failing... even if it was entirely due to their own actions.

Down the route many on here espouse lies the death of X-wing.

No don't nerf other turrets, just this one. Everyone keeps saying don't reprint. That's why they cannot fix it.

What about Tactician? They didn't reprint and just made it limited. It's a nerf

Same could be done for TLT. No reprint. Just state. This weapon does not count as a secondary weapon.

This fixes it. Yes you have to be at range 2 versus other high Agility Targets, but at range 3 you can still hit the low agility targets which everyone says TLT was designed for.

Simple and Effective. No changes to any other cards, just this one and the problem is solved.

No, it's not simple, as you break the definition of what a secondary weapon is.

No you don't. Because you are not changing all other secondary weapons, just this one to not be a secondary weapon. If it had been this way when it was released, no one would have an issue at all because by releasing this you break what turrets are. Previous turrets were always range 1-2.

In the beginning Empire had barrel roll and boost. Hello A and B Wings. In the beginning Empire had bombs. Hello Y Wing card. In the beginning Empire had Cloak. Hello Cloak nerf and Scum knockoff. In the beginning Rebels had Regen and Stressbot. Hey Scum and Empire suck it up. There's only one winner in this story.

It's not that control can't be an element of the game, it's that it shouldn't be THE ELEMENT in every game by only one of the games three factions. The TLT/stressbot is a separate conversation than just TLT or just stressbot.

If control is meant to be a part of the game, each faction should be able to do it equally well (within reason, SCUM should do it more in my opinion).

In the beginning Empire had barrel roll and boost. Hello A and B Wings. In the beginning Empire had bombs. Hello Y Wing card. In the beginning Empire had Cloak. Hello Cloak nerf and Scum knockoff. In the beginning Rebels had Regen and Stressbot. Hey Scum and Empire suck it up. There's only one winner in this story.

The winner is the person who didnt have to read this kind of post.

I've played a lot of different games in the past 20 years. Frankly every time there is a discussion about something that is probably out of balance (to a certain degree) it pretty much looks exactly like this thread.

On one side you have people arguing that it's overpowered, on the other side you have either people arguing against it or people coming up with infinite variations of "its not OP, you just have to play better".

In my very personal opinion, the fact that we have (multiple) threads going 20+ pages about a controversial topic suggests that more than likely there is something off about the item under investigation.

I frequent the German XWing forums as well and TLT is just as controversial of a topic over there, it's controversial in my local meta. This is not an isolated thread.

I have no personal agenda here, i use TLT frequently myself (mostly the stresshog), this is just my experience from 20+years of gaming and gaming discussions.

This is simply an echo chamber for a tiny portion of the community. My local meta is mostly healthy - if a bit dominated by Palp Aces - and TLTs play a small role in the meta. That doesn't mean Palp Aces need to be nerfed.

Agreed here. I don't know that I've seen 4 TLTs locally. I know there weren't any at the last SC here in February. But there were plenty of Palp aces, myself included. And that's what won the SC, too. I don't think that needs to be nerfed either. Maybe I'm missing something, but get range 1, and shoot, right? Sure, that's easier said than done sometimes, but running TLTs isn't always a cake walk either. I've ran 4 TLTs twice, and the first time, I was utterly crushed. Any list flown poorly can get you killed.

In the beginning Empire had barrel roll and boost. Hello A and B Wings. In the beginning Empire had bombs. Hello Y Wing card. In the beginning Empire had Cloak. Hello Cloak nerf and Scum knockoff. In the beginning Rebels had Regen and Stressbot. Hey Scum and Empire suck it up. There's only one winner in this story.

Scum cloak is nowhere near the level of the Phantom.

Tractor Beam gets put in a Scum pack. Then, before even this pack gets released an Imperial title is announced that makes the Defender a way better tractor beam carrier than anything else can dream to be.

Scum had Sloops. Guess who else has them now?

Rebels (and Scum now) might have Regen, but nobody else than Empire gets to: modify dice globally, hide a hyper-maneuvrable ship behind 4-5 greens and a stack of tokens, get dual stress-free actions at PS 11, run a swarm that doesn't suck.

In the beginning Empire had barrel roll and boost. Hello A and B Wings. In the beginning Empire had bombs. Hello Y Wing card. In the beginning Empire had Cloak. Hello Cloak nerf and Scum knockoff. In the beginning Rebels had Regen and Stressbot. Hey Scum and Empire suck it up. There's only one winner in this story.

Scum cloak is nowhere near the level of the Phantom.

Tractor Beam gets put in a Scum pack. Then, before even this pack gets released an Imperial title is announced that makes the Defender a way better tractor beam carrier than anything else can dream to be.

Scum had Sloops. Guess who else has them now?

Rebels (and Scum now) might have Regen, but nobody else than Empire gets to: modify dice globally, hide a hyper-maneuvrable ship behind 4-5 greens and a stack of tokens, get dual stress-free actions at PS 11, run a swarm that doesn't suck.

And I'll just add to the list that ''In the beginning, Rebels had turret. Hello Decimator.''

Got to love those whining posts... the winner is the player that doesn't become a fanboy.

I disagree completely with Ceres on this point. People will whine and moan about ANYTHING that challenges their ability to play what they want how they want and win. Counterspell in Magic, Dishonor in Legend of the 5 Rings, the undead ancient guys (Edit: Necrons) from Warhammer 40k. All have had forums screaming about things like this going on for dozens of forum pages. Control is a part of every fully developed game. You may hate it but control is a mechanic that needs to exist. Stresshog is one of the control mechanics in X-wing (how we got on stresshog from the TLT discussion, which is separate, is beyond me).

There's a difference between Control and Denial. MtG is well aware how Denial, though a valid archetype, has a very negative impact on the enjoyment of players. That's why land destruction is relatively rare.

In any game, taking away the possibility of players to actually do things is detrimental, which is why good designers try to avoid that where possible.

Stresshog still fits in the Control segment, but it is skirting on the edges of denial and its ubiquity would indicate there might be a problem there. You can work around it, but the fact that you must be prepared to work around it in nearly every match where you face Rebels is having an impact on list design.

Auto-includes are a bad thing, they stifle listbuilding.

The only way to avoid a stresshog is by not getting caught in its range 3 arc, which is arguably a huge segment of the board and when flown properly and with practice quite hard to avoid at least once. And that can be enough to really swing the game.

That alone is enough to warrant a very close eye on the impact. It is too soon to tell how large the impact will be after Wave 8 and Imp Vet. Should it still be that big, then it might be time to see if something must be done.

So the stresshog should, imho, be left untouched for at least another 6 months.

TLT's aren't all that impactful. Good, yes, overpoweringly represented? Nah.

No don't nerf other turrets, just this one. Everyone keeps saying don't reprint. That's why they cannot fix it.

What about Tactician? They didn't reprint and just made it limited. It's a nerf

Same could be done for TLT. No reprint. Just state. This weapon does not count as a secondary weapon.

This fixes it. Yes you have to be at range 2 versus other high Agility Targets, but at range 3 you can still hit the low agility targets which everyone says TLT was designed for.

Simple and Effective. No changes to any other cards, just this one and the problem is solved.

No, it's not simple, as you break the definition of what a secondary weapon is.

No you don't. Because you are not changing all other secondary weapons, just this one to not be a secondary weapon. If it had been this way when it was released, no one would have an issue at all because by releasing this you break what turrets are. Previous turrets were always range 1-2.

I immediately switch to the original damage deck and am now immune to losing my tlt on my four ships, and if I happen to draw blinded pilot, I still get the second shot off with that ship.

No don't nerf other turrets, just this one. Everyone keeps saying don't reprint. That's why they cannot fix it.

What about Tactician? They didn't reprint and just made it limited. It's a nerf

Same could be done for TLT. No reprint. Just state. This weapon does not count as a secondary weapon.

This fixes it. Yes you have to be at range 2 versus other high Agility Targets, but at range 3 you can still hit the low agility targets which everyone says TLT was designed for.

Simple and Effective. No changes to any other cards, just this one and the problem is solved.

No, it's not simple, as you break the definition of what a secondary weapon is.

No you don't. Because you are not changing all other secondary weapons, just this one to not be a secondary weapon. If it had been this way when it was released, no one would have an issue at all because by releasing this you break what turrets are. Previous turrets were always range 1-2.

If it's not a secondary weapon, what is it? The rules allow you to attack with a primary weapon or a secondary weapon. If TLT was "not a secondary weapon", and also not a primary weapon, it's a 6-point millstone hung around a Y-wing's neck.

Thespaceinvader had a much better suggestion: "When an enemy ship is defending against this attack, it receives range combat bonuses as if it were a primary attack." (That's way too long to fit on the already-crowded upgrade card, but set that aside.)

Whether it's an appropriate fix is another question, and honestly a more interesting and relevant one.

Even though I don't personally think that the TLT needs a nerf, there is actually a precedant of secondary turret working like a primary one coming soon: The Dorsal Turret.

It works exactly as if it was a primary 2 dice turret (except that it can't shoot at range 3): 2 Attack dice at range 2, 3 at range 1. So I don't see why it would be impossible for the TLT to give the bonus dice to the defender at range 3 as if it was a primary. It would work. I'm not sure it would still be worth 6 points, but it would work.

Vorpal, I agree in general. And I don't mean to advocate that it shouldn't exist/be allowed, just that it has a significant (imo, generally positive) impact on the game.

I do think saying "they still get a maneuver and an attack" is a huge understatement though. The generic versions get that too, and don't pay the premium on cost. Taking the Ace out of your Ace is a pretty huge hit.

I also think saying something like "It's a Y-Wing and can easily be arc-dodged" is very dismissive and implies that the Stresshog is a gimmick, which it is not. It is a significant control piece.

Any less significant than a Soontir Fel? Just because it has a significant impact doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. Blocking and jamming things up with a swarm is a superb tactic in general and it often kills a lot of things limiting maneuvers. We don't need a nerf on blocking.

Vorpal, I agree in general. And I don't mean to advocate that it shouldn't exist/be allowed, just that it has a significant (imo, generally positive) impact on the game.

I do think saying "they still get a maneuver and an attack" is a huge understatement though. The generic versions get that too, and don't pay the premium on cost. Taking the Ace out of your Ace is a pretty huge hit.

I also think saying something like "It's a Y-Wing and can easily be arc-dodged" is very dismissive and implies that the Stresshog is a gimmick, which it is not. It is a significant control piece.

Any less significant than a Soontir Fel? Just because it has a significant impact doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. Blocking and jamming things up with a swarm is a superb tactic in general and it often kills a lot of things limiting maneuvers. We don't need a nerf on blocking.

God, I'm remembering the threads calling on a nerf to purposeful blocking...

No don't nerf other turrets, just this one. Everyone keeps saying don't reprint. That's why they cannot fix it.

What about Tactician? They didn't reprint and just made it limited. It's a nerf

Same could be done for TLT. No reprint. Just state. This weapon does not count as a secondary weapon.

This fixes it. Yes you have to be at range 2 versus other high Agility Targets, but at range 3 you can still hit the low agility targets which everyone says TLT was designed for.

Simple and Effective. No changes to any other cards, just this one and the problem is solved.

No, it's not simple, as you break the definition of what a secondary weapon is.

No you don't. Because you are not changing all other secondary weapons, just this one to not be a secondary weapon. If it had been this way when it was released, no one would have an issue at all because by releasing this you break what turrets are. Previous turrets were always range 1-2.

I immediately switch to the original damage deck and am now immune to losing my tlt on my four ships, and if I happen to draw blinded pilot, I still get the second shot off with that ship.

Very true, But remember only 2 of the 33 card have this. I for one would have no issue with this at all, you are nerfing it a bit, but giving it an out too. Plus if your fishing to get rid of Secondary weapons, on a TLT list, your going to lose. That is a nice yeah if it happens, but actually trying to get it to on purpose is very unlikely due to the odds.

No don't nerf other turrets, just this one. Everyone keeps saying don't reprint. That's why they cannot fix it.

What about Tactician? They didn't reprint and just made it limited. It's a nerf

Same could be done for TLT. No reprint. Just state. This weapon does not count as a secondary weapon.

This fixes it. Yes you have to be at range 2 versus other high Agility Targets, but at range 3 you can still hit the low agility targets which everyone says TLT was designed for.

Simple and Effective. No changes to any other cards, just this one and the problem is solved.

No, it's not simple, as you break the definition of what a secondary weapon is.

No you don't. Because you are not changing all other secondary weapons, just this one to not be a secondary weapon. If it had been this way when it was released, no one would have an issue at all because by releasing this you break what turrets are. Previous turrets were always range 1-2.

I immediately switch to the original damage deck and am now immune to losing my tlt on my four ships, and if I happen to draw blinded pilot, I still get the second shot off with that ship.

Very true, But remember only 2 of the 33 card have this. I for one would have no issue with this at all, you are nerfing it a bit, but giving it an out too. Plus if your fishing to get rid of Secondary weapons, on a TLT list, your going to lose. That is a nice yeah if it happens, but actually trying to get it to on purpose is very unlikely due to the odds.

So it's not just 2 of 33 with that proposed change. It's 4 of 33 plus all the others that genetic ships are already immune to. A percentage bump that isn't insignificant compared to the "every crit hurts" new damage deck.

No don't nerf other turrets, just this one. Everyone keeps saying don't reprint. That's why they cannot fix it.

What about Tactician? They didn't reprint and just made it limited. It's a nerf

Same could be done for TLT. No reprint. Just state. This weapon does not count as a secondary weapon.

This fixes it. Yes you have to be at range 2 versus other high Agility Targets, but at range 3 you can still hit the low agility targets which everyone says TLT was designed for.

Simple and Effective. No changes to any other cards, just this one and the problem is solved.

No, it's not simple, as you break the definition of what a secondary weapon is.

No you don't. Because you are not changing all other secondary weapons, just this one to not be a secondary weapon. If it had been this way when it was released, no one would have an issue at all because by releasing this you break what turrets are. Previous turrets were always range 1-2.

I immediately switch to the original damage deck and am now immune to losing my tlt on my four ships, and if I happen to draw blinded pilot, I still get the second shot off with that ship.

Very true, But remember only 2 of the 33 card have this. I for one would have no issue with this at all, you are nerfing it a bit, but giving it an out too. Plus if your fishing to get rid of Secondary weapons, on a TLT list, your going to lose. That is a nice yeah if it happens, but actually trying to get it to on purpose is very unlikely due to the odds.

I played at a store champ this year using 4 tlt hwks. In my first match I drew both blinded pilot cards at critical times against a "vulnerable" Whisper. The new blinded pilot card was a game changer in that match. Having the old card reduces the chance of that catastrophic event, but more catastrophic on a hwk is losing the turret.

So it's not just 2 of 33 with that proposed change. It's 4 of 33 plus all the others that genetic ships are already immune to. A percentage bump that isn't insignificant compared to the "every crit hurts" new damage deck.

So how is this different than a Tie swarm taking the old damage deck? 4/33 is a little bit better than 8% chance of this happening. I don't see it. Again I think if you happen to pull those good for you, but don't expect it every game. If you hoping that these will win the game for you every time then you are not playing correctly.

No don't nerf other turrets, just this one. Everyone keeps saying don't reprint. That's why they cannot fix it.

What about Tactician? They didn't reprint and just made it limited. It's a nerf

Same could be done for TLT. No reprint. Just state. This weapon does not count as a secondary weapon.

This fixes it. Yes you have to be at range 2 versus other high Agility Targets, but at range 3 you can still hit the low agility targets which everyone says TLT was designed for.

Simple and Effective. No changes to any other cards, just this one and the problem is solved.

No, it's not simple, as you break the definition of what a secondary weapon is.

No you don't. Because you are not changing all other secondary weapons, just this one to not be a secondary weapon. If it had been this way when it was released, no one would have an issue at all because by releasing this you break what turrets are. Previous turrets were always range 1-2.

I immediately switch to the original damage deck and am now immune to losing my tlt on my four ships, and if I happen to draw blinded pilot, I still get the second shot off with that ship.

Very true, But remember only 2 of the 33 card have this. I for one would have no issue with this at all, you are nerfing it a bit, but giving it an out too. Plus if your fishing to get rid of Secondary weapons, on a TLT list, your going to lose. That is a nice yeah if it happens, but actually trying to get it to on purpose is very unlikely due to the odds.

I played at a store champ this year using 4 tlt hwks. In my first match I drew both blinded pilot cards at critical times against a "vulnerable" Whisper. The new blinded pilot card was a game changer in that match. Having the old card reduces the chance of that catastrophic event, but more catastrophic on a hwk is losing the turret.

So it's not just 2 of 33 with that proposed change. It's 4 of 33 plus all the others that genetic ships are already immune to. A percentage bump that isn't insignificant compared to the "every crit hurts" new damage deck.

So how is this different than a Tie swarm taking the old damage deck? 4/33 is a little bit better than 8% chance of this happening. I don't see it. Again I think if you happen to pull those good for you, but don't expect it every game. If you hoping that these will win the game for you every time then you are not playing correctly.

I think you're looking at it backwards still. It's not hoping to pull these. It's that you have 100% chance to never pull the worse versions and even if you do pull these they aren't so devastating that you can't recover.

Vorpal, I agree in general. And I don't mean to advocate that it shouldn't exist/be allowed, just that it has a significant (imo, generally positive) impact on the game.

I do think saying "they still get a maneuver and an attack" is a huge understatement though. The generic versions get that too, and don't pay the premium on cost. Taking the Ace out of your Ace is a pretty huge hit.

I also think saying something like "It's a Y-Wing and can easily be arc-dodged" is very dismissive and implies that the Stresshog is a gimmick, which it is not. It is a significant control piece.

Any less significant than a Soontir Fel? Just because it has a significant impact doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. Blocking and jamming things up with a swarm is a superb tactic in general and it often kills a lot of things limiting maneuvers. We don't need a nerf on blocking.

God, I'm remembering the threads calling on a nerf to purposeful blocking...

I remember threads saying that "blocking was never meant to be part of the game". I don't miss either of those. It is, perhaps, the best tool in the anti-ace/anti-PWT box.

True! But you still only have a 8% chance of pulling those cards. Which is really low.

I give you a bet that you have 8% chance of winning, while I have 92% chance of winning. Will you take that bet?

Davey said turrets need to be examined (Something similar to that)

Probably going to see defenders get an extra green die if they are outside of your arc for all turrets.

Vorpal, I agree in general. And I don't mean to advocate that it shouldn't exist/be allowed, just that it has a significant (imo, generally positive) impact on the game.

I do think saying "they still get a maneuver and an attack" is a huge understatement though. The generic versions get that too, and don't pay the premium on cost. Taking the Ace out of your Ace is a pretty huge hit.

I also think saying something like "It's a Y-Wing and can easily be arc-dodged" is very dismissive and implies that the Stresshog is a gimmick, which it is not. It is a significant control piece.

Any less significant than a Soontir Fel? Just because it has a significant impact doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. Blocking and jamming things up with a swarm is a superb tactic in general and it often kills a lot of things limiting maneuvers. We don't need a nerf on blocking.

I don't understand what you are responding to. I explicitly said I don't think it needed to be nerfed. and that it had a positive impact on the game.

As for the straw man, no blocking is fine too.

Vorpal, I agree in general. And I don't mean to advocate that it shouldn't exist/be allowed, just that it has a significant (imo, generally positive) impact on the game.

I do think saying "they still get a maneuver and an attack" is a huge understatement though. The generic versions get that too, and don't pay the premium on cost. Taking the Ace out of your Ace is a pretty huge hit.

I also think saying something like "It's a Y-Wing and can easily be arc-dodged" is very dismissive and implies that the Stresshog is a gimmick, which it is not. It is a significant control piece.

Any less significant than a Soontir Fel? Just because it has a significant impact doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. Blocking and jamming things up with a swarm is a superb tactic in general and it often kills a lot of things limiting maneuvers. We don't need a nerf on blocking.

I don't understand what you are responding to. I explicitly said I don't think it needed to be nerfed. and that it had a positive impact on the game.

As for the straw man, no blocking is fine too.

yeah, I guess I misunderstood you a bit there. I'm pretty new to X-wing over the last 2 months, and it amuses me that people ever thought that blocking wasn't supposed to be a part of the game or that it might need to be nerfed. I'm guessing that people want to at least be able to perform actions. But I suppose that's why certain upgrades and pilots have abilities that can overcome a bump.

As to the general question of the OP, I'm hoping that it's not nerfed. I may be new to X-wing, but I've played MMOs, and I've had enough of the "nerf this, nerf that," discussion. People do and will always gravitate to what works. If you nerf TLTs, then something else will just become equally whined about.

True! But you still only have a 8% chance of pulling those cards. Which is really low.

I give you a bet that you have 8% chance of winning, while I have 92% chance of winning. Will you take that bet?

That's completely unrelated to the original point and an incorrect interpretation of the chance to draw the crit.

Fresh deck, the first crit drawn has a 6% chance to be the crit you don't want. By the 5th crit drawn it's a 28% chance. Further, crits are not guaranteed when you do damage so as you draw face down cards you may draw the card you dread but you are more likely reducing the safe pool of cards leading to better chances of drawing the one you don't want later in the game.

Choosing the appropriate damage deck to reduce the risks of your list is a part of list building now. Changing tlt so it isn't a secondary weapon immediately flips the 4tlt list's choice from the new deck to the old deck. That's all I've been saying.

(percentages taken from this site: http://www.unseelie.org/cgi-bin/cardco.cgi?deck=33&target=2&hand=5)