Sithborg: I think you are downplaying the impact being double stressed has on many, many of the big Aces right now.

Corran Horn: Cannot have defensive tokens or Boost/Barrel Roll

Soontir Fel: Can't do anything.

Darth Vader: Can't do anything.

Poe Dameron: Cannot do anything. In some builds, cannot regen.

Whisper: Cannot re-cloak in the subsequent or have defensive tokens without her ability.

Dash/Super Dash: Cannot do anything

Miranda: Cannot do anything.

Jake Farrell: Cannot do anything.

Etc.

Most of these aces cannot Arc Dodge/Defend themselves when they are loaded with stress. That is the point. These guys typically end up killed in those situations.

It is also worth noting that a vast majority of them cannot easily attack better than their generic counterparts in this situation either. And how many generic E-Wings/INTs/Tie Advanceds/etc./etc. have you seen lately?

Sure, many of them CAN arc dodge a single Y-Wing if they choose to, but a clever opponent will setup a scenario where if you do you get blasted by their Ace/rest of their list. If you allow yourself to be tagged, those same guys will pounce on you next round while you are somewhat helpless. If you keep the stress, you only extend the amount of time that it affects you.

I don;t know about you, but I don't like it when I spend 30+ points on a ship and then have sections of the board denied to me and/or have my ship unable to be effective attacking and at the mercy of the dice defending.

This is why I have been playing:

Gold + R3-A2 + TLT + BTL-A4

Warden + TLT + Tactician

Warden + TLT + Tactician

Bandit

Against Aces it is glorious. Playing as BroBots against Palp Aces was really an uphill battle. So, one time I killed Palp Aces 100-0 vs a good player (who now has 2 Store Championship wins!) using the above "Maximum Danger Zone" list without even taking any hull damage. It was amazing.

It is also related to the OP discussion! We have come full circle!

TLT + Tactician is a thing... although the generic K-wing are so overcosted that they really only just break even with that loadout, unlike the 24-point TLT Y-wing and 26 point stresshog which are obviously fantastic values for their respective functions.

I don't see how that has anything to do with what we were talking about at all. Your opponent misjudged because you had a stress and that has something to do with the impact of stress/loss of actions on a ship somehow?

It's an anecdote helping demonstrate that a proportion of players tends to assume that stressed ships will perform green maneuvers. That is, it's support for the idea that stressed ships are less limited than many players assume they are.

Sithborg: I think you are downplaying the impact being double stressed has on many, many of the big Aces right now.

Corran Horn: Cannot have defensive tokens or Boost/Barrel Roll

Soontir Fel: Can't do anything.

Darth Vader: Can't do anything.

Poe Dameron: Cannot do anything. In some builds, cannot regen.

Whisper: Cannot re-cloak in the subsequent or have defensive tokens without her ability.

Dash/Super Dash: Cannot do anything

Miranda: Cannot do anything.

Jake Farrell: Cannot do anything.

Etc.

All of those ships can still maneuver and attack. Some of them are hardly even inconvenienced by stress, especially Miranda + TLT. And then there are corner cases: Whisper, if she's smart, merely stays cloaked--and therefore spends a couple of rounds defending with "only" 4 dice, plus non-action defensive mods like Sensor Jammer, Agent Kallus, or Emperor Palpatine. And the rest of my list doesn't even necessarily have to kill the stresshog: after it's started dealing out stress tokens, it can't turn around very easily.

Yes, double-stress is very nasty. IMO, R3-A2 + BTL-A4 is a noticeably bigger threat to game balance than TLT is. But the stresshog is arc-locked, it's only possible on a ship that can't maneuver very effectively, and it's not particularly durable. It's probably too dangerous for its price, but it's definitely beatable.

Same old arguments. I used to beat phantoms and fat hans. However changes were made. Just because it can be beat doesn't mean there is nothing wrong with it.

Vorpal, I agree in general. And I don't mean to advocate that it shouldn't exist/be allowed, just that it has a significant (imo, generally positive) impact on the game.

I do think saying "they still get a maneuver and an attack" is a huge understatement though. The generic versions get that too, and don't pay the premium on cost. Taking the Ace out of your Ace is a pretty huge hit.

I also think saying something like "It's a Y-Wing and can easily be arc-dodged" is very dismissive and implies that the Stresshog is a gimmick, which it is not. It is a significant control piece.

Sithborg: I think you are downplaying the impact being double stressed has on many, many of the big Aces right now.

Corran Horn: Cannot have defensive tokens or Boost/Barrel Roll

Soontir Fel: Can't do anything.

Darth Vader: Can't do anything.

Poe Dameron: Cannot do anything. In some builds, cannot regen.

Whisper: Cannot re-cloak in the subsequent or have defensive tokens without her ability.

Dash/Super Dash: Cannot do anything

Miranda: Cannot do anything.

Jake Farrell: Cannot do anything.

Etc.

No, not etc, etc, etc...

Yes, being double stressed is bad for a subsection of ships. But, you where you lose me is where it is supposedly game ending for that player. Between things like Juke, Wired, Predator, FCS, Lone Wolf, Dengar, and more, there are plenty of ways to get psuedo actions while stressed. Sure, most will be more offensive, but offense tends to be rewarded in this game. If being stressed was so terrible, then no one would execute red maneuvers.

And you tend to over emphasize the effects on some of those pilots. I mean, Corran usually spends a turn after his double tap running. And with his dial, I fail to see the issue of him still running. Or, with most of those ships. Dash is fine for a few turns without actions, as he is still a durable ship and can has a decent chance of doing damage. Yes, a few are terrified of being stressed. But, not nearly all ships are as dependent on actions and their red maneuvers to be that scared of the Stresshog. I mean, it dies fairly quickly once concentrated on.

No question, it is powerful. But, I think people fear it too much. Of course, I love flying Defenders, who will gladly go toe to toe with a Stresshog.

And I await to see actual results of the Stresshog + Z-95 swarm.

It's a significant control piece, but it's outstanding only because the other control pieces are so bad. Tactician? Mara Jade? Rebel Captive? Flechette/Ion Cannon?

I frankly LIKE Stresshog in the meta. As a one-off, it's a significant piece that requires skilful flying to avoid, skilful flying to USE, and is NOT lethal by itself - I've watched a friend of mine who's an expert on Palp Aces survive the Stresshog getting TWO rounds of shooting (at Vader AND Soontir!) by amazing prediction and use of whites.

It's a counter, to be sure, but it's a soft counter, not a hard. It doesn't slaughter Aces by itself, but it gives the means to do so if used properly. It's also a single, and probably better to think of it as an Ace by itself rather than a generic. An Ace with PS2 and Torpedo/Modification slots.

I'm not usually a L3RN 2 PL31 N00B guy, but it can be outflown, and its sheer predictability as a Rebel piece does give the metagame stability.

What vexed me was how the Y-Wing broke Fat Han's record and were 27% of the Worlds Top 32 - a significant share of that is 4 Y-Wing sets, both Rebel and Scum. But it's not important right now except as one data point. Let's see how Regionals 2016 shape up.

I've played a lot of different games in the past 20 years. Frankly every time there is a discussion about something that is probably out of balance (to a certain degree) it pretty much looks exactly like this thread.

On one side you have people arguing that it's overpowered, on the other side you have either people arguing against it or people coming up with infinite variations of "its not OP, you just have to play better".

In my very personal opinion, the fact that we have (multiple) threads going 20+ pages about a controversial topic suggests that more than likely there is something off about the item under investigation.

I frequent the German XWing forums as well and TLT is just as controversial of a topic over there, it's controversial in my local meta. This is not an isolated thread.

I have no personal agenda here, i use TLT frequently myself (mostly the stresshog), this is just my experience from 20+years of gaming and gaming discussions.

I don't see if out of balance though. I see it as a control piece. When you play a game that's based in strategy, especially list building strategy (card or miniatures alike) you have a choice: Make a list or team that does a cool thing or Build a list that stops others from doing their cool thing. The latter option, is control. Control builds are present in most card and miniatures games, and people usually hate them. Why? Because it stops your cool thing from happening, and that really sucks. Is it an unfair, unbalanced or "cheap" strategy? Nope, it's usually the stronger one.

I understand that Xwing was, for a long time, mostly dominated by two things doing cool things and then one list won. But now control is an option, a very valid option, and I see nothing wrong with that.

I'm excited to move forward and try or dance next wave and see if I can stomp some stressers in the alpha strike.

Sithborg: I think you are downplaying the impact being double stressed has on many, many of the big Aces right now.

Corran Horn: Cannot have defensive tokens or Boost/Barrel Roll

Soontir Fel: Can't do anything.

Darth Vader: Can't do anything.

Poe Dameron: Cannot do anything. In some builds, cannot regen.

Whisper: Cannot re-cloak in the subsequent or have defensive tokens without her ability.

Dash/Super Dash: Cannot do anything

Miranda: Cannot do anything.

Jake Farrell: Cannot do anything.

Etc.

No, not etc, etc, etc...

Yes, being double stressed is bad for a subsection of ships. But, you where you lose me is where it is supposedly game ending for that player. Between things like Juke, Wired, Predator, FCS, Lone Wolf, Dengar, and more, there are plenty of ways to get psuedo actions while stressed. Sure, most will be more offensive, but offense tends to be rewarded in this game. If being stressed was so terrible, then no one would execute red maneuvers.

And you tend to over emphasize the effects on some of those pilots. I mean, Corran usually spends a turn after his double tap running. And with his dial, I fail to see the issue of him still running. Or, with most of those ships. Dash is fine for a few turns without actions, as he is still a durable ship and can has a decent chance of doing damage. Yes, a few are terrified of being stressed. But, not nearly all ships are as dependent on actions and their red maneuvers to be that scared of the Stresshog. I mean, it dies fairly quickly once concentrated on.

No question, it is powerful. But, I think people fear it too much. Of course, I love flying Defenders, who will gladly go toe to toe with a Stresshog.

And I await to see actual results of the Stresshog + Z-95 swarm.

I think you misunderstand. I do not think it is game ending by any means, but it does lead to aces having to run for their lives, and in many cases that does cause those aces to die, sooner or later. Sure, Corran can run for another turn or two, but if I know that he can either 1) Do a white move and keep his 2 stress (essentially delaying the inevitable) or 2) do a green and be 100% predictable while not getting actions it makes it easier for me to chase and kill him in a timely manner. Sure, his green dice could go wacky, but I would never count on that.

That's just a single example. All of the Aces I listed are extremely commonly played. Again, I do not think the Stresshog needs to be nerfed. Frankly, I think it needs to be there to give those aces a hard time. But trying to pretend like it's no big deal is ludicrous in my opinion.

Sure, predator, FCS etc. help, but 1) not all the ships on the list can take those upgrades easily and 2) Offensive output doesn't help you stay alive, which is much, much more important for many of those aces than killing one more TIE fighter or whatever. Wired...Really? If you are taking Wired you have an in-built stress ability which you are not able to use in the face of a stresshog. I don't see how that one is a "win". Dengar isn't even released yet, so....

If being stressed was so terrible, then no one would execute red maneuvers

That's a straw man. Yes, of course, being stressed is part of the game, no one was arguing that. Being stressed twice by your opponent on demand for going to an area of the board, preventing actions, red moves for 2+ turns is a much bigger deal than "Hey I need to K-Turn, guess I'll have to green soon". You are not in control of it and it has a significant detrimental effect on many pilots despite your attempt to downplay it.

And I await to see actual results of the Stresshog + Z-95 swarm.

Huh? What does that have to do with anything? The stresshog is being played in tons of lists. What does it's effectiveness in a Z-Swarm have to do with it?

I think you misunderstand. I do not think it is game ending by any means, but it does lead to aces having to run for their lives, and in many cases that does cause those aces to die, sooner or later. Sure, Corran can run for another turn or two, but if I know that he can either 1) Do a white move and keep his 2 stress (essentially delaying the inevitable) or 2) do a green and be 100% predictable while not getting actions it makes it easier for me to chase and kill him in a timely manner. Sure, his green dice could go wacky, but I would never count on that.

That's just a single example. All of the Aces I listed are extremely commonly played. Again, I do not think the Stresshog needs to be nerfed. Frankly, I think it needs to be there to give those aces a hard time. But trying to pretend like it's no big deal is ludicrous in my opinion.

Sure, predator, FCS etc. help, but 1) not all the ships on the list can take those upgrades easily and 2) Offensive output doesn't help you stay alive, which is much, much more important for many of those aces than killing one more TIE fighter or whatever. Wired...Really? If you are taking Wired you have an in-built stress ability which you are not able to use in the face of a stresshog. I don't see how that one is a "win". Dengar isn't even released yet, so....

Considering that running away is already a fairly good option for the regen ships, I am not particularly seeing the concern if a ship has to run away to get back into a good fighting position if double stressed.

That's a straw man. Yes, of course, being stressed is part of the game, no one was arguing that. Being stressed twice by your opponent on demand for going to an area of the board, preventing actions, red moves for 2+ turns is a much bigger deal than "Hey I need to K-Turn, guess I'll have to green soon". You are not in control of it and it has a significant detrimental effect on many pilots despite your attempt to downplay it.

It probably is. I still believe that good players will know when to face the double stress, rather than try to run away from it. But, again, my playstyle is very much in "go ahead, take white while stressed" as long as I have the turn around planned out.

Huh? What does that have to do with anything? The stresshog is being played in tons of lists. What does it's effectiveness in a Z-Swarm have to do with it?

Different argument, sorry.

Once tractor beam and imperial veterans rolls out we'll all be singing a different tune. Tlts are going to be miserable fighting tie defenders that can make the least maneuverable ship in the game get into bad positions.

I've played a lot of different games in the past 20 years. Frankly every time there is a discussion about something that is probably out of balance (to a certain degree) it pretty much looks exactly like this thread.

On one side you have people arguing that it's overpowered, on the other side you have either people arguing against it or people coming up with infinite variations of "its not OP, you just have to play better".

In my very personal opinion, the fact that we have (multiple) threads going 20+ pages about a controversial topic suggests that more than likely there is something off about the item under investigation.

I frequent the German XWing forums as well and TLT is just as controversial of a topic over there, it's controversial in my local meta. This is not an isolated thread.

I have no personal agenda here, i use TLT frequently myself (mostly the stresshog), this is just my experience from 20+years of gaming and gaming discussions.

This is simply an echo chamber for a tiny portion of the community. My local meta is mostly healthy - if a bit dominated by Palp Aces - and TLTs play a small role in the meta. That doesn't mean Palp Aces need to be nerfed.

I've played a lot of different games in the past 20 years. Frankly every time there is a discussion about something that is probably out of balance (to a certain degree) it pretty much looks exactly like this thread.

On one side you have people arguing that it's overpowered, on the other side you have either people arguing against it or people coming up with infinite variations of "its not OP, you just have to play better".

In my very personal opinion, the fact that we have (multiple) threads going 20+ pages about a controversial topic suggests that more than likely there is something off about the item under investigation.

I frequent the German XWing forums as well and TLT is just as controversial of a topic over there, it's controversial in my local meta. This is not an isolated thread.

I have no personal agenda here, i use TLT frequently myself (mostly the stresshog), this is just my experience from 20+years of gaming and gaming discussions.

Discussions about TLT and discussions about BTL-A4 Y's (chief among them the TLT Stresshog) should be separate.

Complaints about quad TLT or Danger Zone or TLT in general being obnoxious are fine. Complaints about the Stresshog seem to be coming exclusively from Palp Aces players whining that their ships aren't invincible enough and that they can be countered, to paraphrase Khyros a few pages back.

The stresshog is an autoinclude in lists purely as a response to a bunch of others playing autoinclude pre-assembled broken Acewing BS. Maybe if every Imperial squad didn't have a 35 point Interceptor that can sit behind 3 hull, 4-5 agility, autothrusters, Palpatine, 2 Focuses, and an evade maybe there wouldn't be a need for a ship that can just tag something with 2 stress automatically. Anyone who seriously thinks the stresshog needs a nerf should play a list full of 2 attack dice ships against a Soontir.

How about we nerf Soontir or Palpatine, the actual broken ****?

I've stayed off this thread so far but here goes...

I do think TLTs should have been a point more. 1 in a list wouldn't really change much but if you're looking at 3-4 pets suddenly you have to make a choice and give something up. That's a good balance point; you get the best thing in that category but you have to give a little. As it stands now, you can just take the best thing from the turret category 4 times. Part of the problem is lackluster other turret options. But much like what I'm about to say about stressbot goes for TLT turrets too.

That says nothing about stressbot. Predictions of a stress meta finally panned out but it hasn't been nearly as dire as most predicted since most stress (and control in general) does force the choice mentioned above: I can do this but I give something up. Stresshog doesn't really do that; stressbot does it better period. The only negative is that you can only do it on one ship. The reason I don't like stresshog right now is because since exists, all other control must cost more or risk comboing too well. It is rebel only but the design team seems pretty set on rebels only getting double stress mechanics.

I'd love to see more ion and stress in the game but not in addition to stressbot and all the tacticians running around. I'd love to see pilots that get bonuses vs. stressed enemies and such. Stressbot shrinks that design space. Very fine line to draw and to dance across.

They are not going to nerf Rebels. period.

Wait, they already did. It is called Scum.

TLT is fine as is.

TLT is fine as is.

In your opinion, the numbers do not lie however.

TLT is fine as is.

Nerf or not. TLT are top on metagame right now (this is a fact).

And this is probably related about his cost / efficiency ratio.

Your opinion is subjective.

TLT is fine as is.

Nerf or not. TLT are top on metagame right now (this is a fact).

And this is probably related about his cost / efficiency ratio.

Your opinion is subjective.

Again because the C3P0 Falcon, BC Brobots w/autothrusters and PTL Soontir w/ Autothrusters and palp were on top of the game before then. What were the counters to those before? Doubile Tap Corran, Gunner on Han, and well B Brobots was the counter to C broobots. But yeah the point fortress meta which locked points away for time needed a high attack power to break it. There is a reason why a red die has a better statistical result than a green die but when green die probability was exchanged for a constant, red dice became weak again and many games went to MOV because of time.

It is called power creep. Strong defensive options can only be beaten by stronger offensive options which are beaten by super defensive options which lose to ultra offensive options.

Now are TLTs too much power for the squadron points spent. Maybe, they do less damage than HLC but in throwing out more dice than HLC they are more consistent and I find constancy more valuable than average expected damage output. So with that consideration they should have cost just as much as HLC.

However on the OP subject is not on if they should be nerfed but how? OP suggested an errata or a pen and ink change to TLT. But an errata to the card in any significant manner without literally reprinting the card is impossible. Cloak could be nerfed because the rules for cloaking and decloaking were not printed on any of the upgrade or pilot cards. Autoblasters got buffed by making a pen and ink change to the core rule book.

The only errata that I could see making a change is range bonuses on secondary weapons to include turret and cannon slot weapons but exclude missile and torpedo weapons. However that does require a significant amount of redefining secondary weapons in the core rulebook then also having to carry on that ruling to illicits and hardpoints to figure where would those secondary weapons fit in.

But an errata to the card in any significant manner without literally reprinting the card is impossible. Cloak could be nerfed because the rules for cloaking and decloaking were not printed on any of the upgrade or pilot cards.

Cloak/Decloak has rule cards that were changed though?

Range bonuses apply to Turret secondary weapons DOES sound feasible. It kinda buffs the other turrets as well. Paying a focus for blaster turret now is fair if you get 4 dice in return. Autoblaster turret will be devastating to those who fell into the range. I'd really like to see this change. Fighting against variety of strong turrets are much better than Praying to RNG gods 8 times in a row in a round for one ship.

EDIT: and then there's dorsal turret. Well, shouldn't complain it's already cheap!

Just wondering if those that play other competitive games have seen this before and if it's relatively easy to predict when an errata/nerf is coming.

Thoughts?

I've played a lot of different games in the past 20 years. Frankly every time there is a discussion about something that is probably out of balance (to a certain degree) it pretty much looks exactly like this thread.

On one side you have people arguing that it's overpowered, on the other side you have either people arguing against it or people coming up with infinite variations of "its not OP, you just have to play better".

In my very personal opinion, the fact that we have (multiple) threads going 20+ pages about a controversial topic suggests that more than likely there is something off about the item under investigation.

I frequent the German XWing forums as well and TLT is just as controversial of a topic over there, it's controversial in my local meta. This is not an isolated thread.

I have no personal agenda here, i use TLT frequently myself (mostly the stresshog), this is just my experience from 20+years of gaming and gaming discussions.

Finally someone answered the question I had originally. Thank you.

Or maybe someone else did? Don't feel like digging through 25 pages.

This thread got out of control lol I'm glad I was able to engage some great minds in this discussion.

Carry on.

Taking as example another FFG game, Imperial Assault, 5 cards have been errated because those were OP, those were broken compared with the rest. Solution: distribute them on tournament kits as prizes. Take a look to: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2015/12/21/great-change-in-the-galaxy/here, you will find new versions of the cards. The original cards come on a box retail valued of $100. So don't say it is imposible. Just to get a copy of most of those you have to pay $100 even when you have miniatures to play 2 at the same time and there is no expansion blisters. Here in X-Wing you have 2 copies of TLT on a $20 blister.

If it is broken, FFG will change it. I will not decide, I've not said anything about errate it, I've just said it has a good ratio efficiency / cost and because of that a lot of people use it.

No don't nerf other turrets, just this one. Everyone keeps saying don't reprint. That's why they cannot fix it.

What about Tactician? They didn't reprint and just made it limited. It's a nerf

Same could be done for TLT. No reprint. Just state. This weapon does not count as a secondary weapon.

This fixes it. Yes you have to be at range 2 versus other high Agility Targets, but at range 3 you can still hit the low agility targets which everyone says TLT was designed for.

Simple and Effective. No changes to any other cards, just this one and the problem is solved.

No don't nerf other turrets, just this one. Everyone keeps saying don't reprint. That's why they cannot fix it.

What about Tactician? They didn't reprint and just made it limited. It's a nerf

Same could be done for TLT. No reprint. Just state. This weapon does not count as a secondary weapon.

This fixes it. Yes you have to be at range 2 versus other high Agility Targets, but at range 3 you can still hit the low agility targets which everyone says TLT was designed for.

Simple and Effective. No changes to any other cards, just this one and the problem is solved.

No, it's not simple, as you break the definition of what a secondary weapon is.