Tlt's don't need a nerf

But. If they wanted to make it less powerful without killing it. That's easy.

"Range 3 turrets do get the bonus agility die."

The benefits for the game would be much greater then the downsides.

That's only true if you accept that there's something wrong with TLT's which many of us don't.

"Range 3 turrets do get the bonus agility die."

That is a major change to the rules and affects way more than just the TLT. It also again assumes that turrets need to be nerfed.

So I guess general consensus is TLT isn't necessarily competitively overpowered like the Phantom, just more effective than other options, so doesn't necessarily require a nerf more so than the other generic filler ships need a buff?

Here's the thing, TLT's are good but not great. Mass TLT's (3 and 4 ship variants) have won some GSC's. Far more often a mass TLT list will either not make the cut or make the cut but then fizzle out before the finals.

TLT's have weaknesses that can be exploited. In my own personal opinion much of the concern over TLT swarms comes out of local meta's that aren't developed as much as others. In some of those arenas where not enough people have figured out how to beat them it gives a false impression that they are overpowered.

Again, that's not to say TLT's aren't good. They are good. And for 6 points a pop they should be. It's a far cry from the Phantom issue that was developing and would have gotten worse. The nice thing about the Phantom errata was that it left the ship in a good place. Still extremely powerful but with a little more vulnerability. And many people would also tell you that the Phantom rule change also helped out the low pilot skill versions of that ship as well.

TLT isn't going to get out of hand. If anything Worlds and the GSC's have simply confirmed they are not overpowered.

I endorse this post in its entirety. I've come around to the idea that TLT is a point too cheap, but that's probably not enough for FFG to take the unusual step of errata.

So I guess general consensus is TLT isn't necessarily competitively overpowered like the Phantom, just more effective than other options, so doesn't necessarily require a nerf more so than the other generic filler ships need a buff?

Here's the thing, TLT's are good but not great. Mass TLT's (3 and 4 ship variants) have won some GSC's. Far more often a mass TLT list will either not make the cut or make the cut but then fizzle out before the finals.

TLT's have weaknesses that can be exploited. In my own personal opinion much of the concern over TLT swarms comes out of local meta's that aren't developed as much as others. In some of those arenas where not enough people have figured out how to beat them it gives a false impression that they are overpowered.

Again, that's not to say TLT's aren't good. They are good. And for 6 points a pop they should be. It's a far cry from the Phantom issue that was developing and would have gotten worse. The nice thing about the Phantom errata was that it left the ship in a good place. Still extremely powerful but with a little more vulnerability. And many people would also tell you that the Phantom rule change also helped out the low pilot skill versions of that ship as well.

TLT isn't going to get out of hand. If anything Worlds and the GSC's have simply confirmed they are not overpowered.

I endorse this post in its entirety. I've come around to the idea that TLT is a point too cheap, but that's probably not enough for FFG to take the unusual step of errata.

Funny i remember quite a lot of backlash on this forum when i suggested TLT should have been the same cost as HLC (7pts) shortly after it was released. Looks like i've just been too early with this opinion. Anyway, it's not game breaking and they probably already have some stuff in the works that will weaken TLT indirectly (as TLT did to PWTs).

I thought the ordnance fixes were the TLT nerf? Smash one and a half TLT Y-wings in the first turn and they are hurting.

The latest store championships and vassal tournaments have all seen a decently diverse combination of ships, pilots and upgrades in my opinion, at least in comparison to the days of the pre-nerf Phantom. This alone, even if TLT is overpowered, is reason enough not to make an errata. I would at the very least give it one more year before we claim it's disrupting the balance of the game to the point the game needs to change it.

Having said that though, the only erratas currently I would be fine with would be a change which had range bonuses applied to turrets and cannon upgrades (autoblasters is the only worry of getting too big of a bump here), some sort of nerf to regeneration, and an errata where FFG finally admits they made a mistake and that the point costs of the Wave 6 scum titles were mixed up and IG 2000 costs 2, Heavy scyk costs 1, and Virago costs 0.

In my opinion, something in this game only needs a nerf when you either play it, or plan to counter it. I have been seeing so many different ships played, that I don't believe the TLT needs a nerf(even though I hate playing against Quad Y's with TLT).

I think people don't understand the Phantom errata.

The Cloaking dynamic was a new thing to the game, Fantasy Flight went on a huge limb to bring something that big to the game. They do it because they want to keep the game fun and interesting for the dedicated players of the game. However, no matter how much they change the game they wanted to core mechanic of guessing your opponents maneuver to gain a favourable advantage of position for attack.
Some angered people on here might say turrets broke that, but from Fat turrets to TLT, there's more favourable positions against each ship and if you find your way into that position from some fancy flying and good guessing, you'll be on your way to victory.

Then the Phantom came along and made it so it was no longer guessing. You picked a omni-useful direction then just waited for the enemy to move his ships, then you reacted. That was where the problem came. In a game of guessing and reward for good strategy of movement, you had something that could just "Wait and see".

That broke the game, that's why it was errata'd.

While the TLT is strong, it's nowhere near the pre-adjustment Phantoms (and whatever shenanigans the Scum players will come up with soon).

I'm not saying the phantom was balanced but the phantom also didn't win any worlds either actually I dong remember it in the top 2 at worlds. TLT was in nearly every rebel and scum list in the top 8.

The ordnance buffs and triple x7 Defender will clean house with TLT based squads.

I am not completely sold on the diversity, as i have seen diversity too but honestly the winners are TLTs or lists that are good against TLTs.

So if you have something that defines the meta so heavily is probably imbalanced. I get that 4TLT Y-wings does not win it all but you usually build the list and throw it away if it has no solution against tlts, thats why we see tons of poe and soontir and autothurster ships winning, thats why sensor jammer is so good right now. I think we are just starting to see the problem of the half point mov too, since you can no longer play Fatships cuz TLTs destroy you and you have a fair game against anyone else in which you almos no longer will have a perfect score game, so you move away from it and now we are stuck in the wolrd of good aces against TLT spam or TLT spam.

While the TLT is strong, it's nowhere near the pre-adjustment Phantoms (and whatever shenanigans the Scum players will come up with soon).

I'm not saying the phantom was balanced but the phantom also didn't win any worlds either actually I dong remember it in the top 2 at worlds. TLT was in nearly every rebel and scum list in the top 8.

2015 X-wing Champion

(1st Swiss, 8-0 (1 mod win), 38, 1167, 3.5) - Paul Heaver

2014 World Champion

2013 World Champion

• Poe Dameron + R2‑D2 + Veteran Instincts + Autothrusters
• Gold Squadron Pilot + R3‑A2 + BTL‑A4 Y‑wing + Twin Laser Turret
• Gold Squadron Pilot + Twin Laser Turret
• Bandit Squadron Pilot

(1 TLT; the BTL-a4 really doesn't care about it outside of its ability to hit range 3)

Runner-Up

(10th Swiss, 6-1-1 (1 draw), 31, 1227, 3.0) - Nathan Eide

2015 Regional winner: Wisconsin, USA

• Corran Horn + R2-D2 + Engine Upgrade + Push The Limit + Fire Control Systems;
• Poe Dameron + Veteran Instincts + Autothrusters + R5-P9
• Prototype Pilot + Chardaan Refit

(no TLT)

Top 4

#3: (11th Swiss, 6-2, 30, 1181, 3.1) - Phillip Booth

• IG-88A&B + Heavy Laser Cannon + Autothrusters + Glitterstim + Crackshot + Fire Control Systems + IG-2000

(no TLT)

#4: (12th Swiss, 6-2, 30, 1167, 2.9) - Jeremy Howard

2015 Regional Winner: Raleigh, North Carolina, USA

• Fel + PtL + Royal Guard Title + Stealth + Autothrusters
• Vader + Lone Wolf + title + ATC
• Omicron Group Shuttle + Palpatine + Sensor Jammer

Top 8

#5: (2nd Swiss, 7-1, 35, 1218, 3.7) - Aaron Bonar

2014 Worlds Top 32

2013 Worlds Top 16

• Miranda Doni + Tactician + Twin Laser Turret;
• 2x Warden Squadron Pilot + Tactician + Twin Laser Turret

(all the TLT)

#6: (3rd - Swiss, 7-1, 35, 1198, 3.2) Francisco Berna Menendez

• Carnor Jax + Stealth Device + Push The Limit + Royal Guard TIE + Autothrusters
• Omicron Group Pilot + Sensor Jammer + Emperor Palpatine
• Darth Vader + Predator + Adv. Targeting Computer + TIE/x1

#7: (8th Swiss, 7-1 (1 mod win), 33, 1152, 2.8) - Przemyslaw Talach

2015 Nationals Winner: Poland

• 4x Thug + TLT + Unhinged

(all the TLT)

#8: (13th Swiss, 6-2, 30, 1139, 3.4) - Travis Foss

2015 Regional Winner: Canberra, Australia

• Dash Rendar + Engine Upgrade + Heavy Laser Cannon + Push The Limit + Kyle Katarn + Outrider
• Corran Horn + R2-D2 + Veteran Instincts + Fire Control Systems

(no TLT)

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/192577-2015-worlds-results/

In my opinion, something in this game only needs a nerf when you either play it, or plan to counter it. I have been seeing so many different ships played, that I don't believe the TLT needs a nerf(even though I hate playing against Quad Y's with TLT).

I think TLT is defining the meta, you either have a good list against it or you run it, or both see PHeaver worlds list.

In my opinion, something in this game only needs a nerf when you either play it, or plan to counter it. I have been seeing so many different ships played, that I don't believe the TLT needs a nerf(even though I hate playing against Quad Y's with TLT).

I think TLT is defining the meta, you either have a good list against it or you run it, or both see PHeaver worlds list.

But this is how competitive play works. The same can be said for Brobots or Palp Aces, or Stresshog, or Crack swarm, or regen.

While TLT may be shaping the meta. It is not defining it because it is not the only thing you have to take into consideration.

So I guess general consensus is TLT isn't necessarily competitively overpowered like the Phantom, just more effective than other options, so doesn't necessarily require a nerf more so than the other generic filler ships need a buff?

As I recall, the consensus regarding the TIE Phantom was not very different.

TLTs have bent the meta. The Phantom kind of broke it.

This is not a complain thread and/or a nerf idea thread.

Last year the Phantom was thought to be overpowered and it became relevant from World's results. It was then nerfed with the changes going into effect at the start of Regional season.

This year World's - Post Worlds, tournament results have demonstrated evidence that TLT has caused some power creep, and I'm sure FFG is well aware of it.

Just wondering if those that play other competitive games have seen this before and if it's relatively easy to predict when an errata/nerf is coming.

Thoughts?

Guess what? Our store had 3 whispers in top 4.

Better TLT than acewing

But this is how competitive play works. The same can be said for Brobots or Palp Aces, or Stresshog, or Crack swarm, or regen.

While TLT may be shaping the meta. It is not defining it because it is not the only thing you have to take into consideration.

Is not the only thing to take into consideration but it is the brickwall. It defines the ship, pilots and upgrades you choose so much more than any other you named.

Granting defenders the range 3 bonus when attacked outside of the attackers firing arc would be the best way to tone down the TLT.

I think that would make the ships that are already strong against TLT almost too strong.

The benefits for the game would be much greater then the downsides.

Which one would you make 'too strong'? The only one that comes to my mind is Soontir. And Soontir is very unforgiving once he got blocked or double stressed.

Poe is the one that immediately comes to mind. StarVipers and Phantoms with Sensor Jammers also become stupid hard to hit.

My Suggestion:

TLT Fix:

Attacks with this weapon do not count as secondary. This way they still hit low agility ships, but are slightly less effective, since they don't cancel that range 3 bonus defense die. Still great, but now actually worth the 6 points, instead of being under-costed.

My Suggestion:

Clueless?

My Suggestion:

Clueless?

Granting defenders the range 3 bonus when attacked outside of the attackers firing arc would be the best way to tone down the TLT.

I think that would make the ships that are already strong against TLT almost too strong.

The benefits for the game would be much greater then the downsides.

Which one would you make 'too strong'? The only one that comes to my mind is Soontir. And Soontir is very unforgiving once he got blocked or double stressed.

Poe is the one that immediately comes to mind. StarVipers and Phantoms with Sensor Jammers also become stupid hard to hit.

For TLT only builds, yes.

I feel like someone is just buttmad that they can no longer plop their 60 point fat turret down and end the day with 800-0 MoV as you've spent half the game on your phone after putting 2 seconds into dial choice each round.

The Acewing meta that TLT helped create is far better than wave 5's Candyland of a game. ******* child's game.

Didn't someone place very highly at a Regional or National event with only 88 points of Phantoms?

It was 86 points. I think it only won some SCs. The Decloaking errata hit between SCs and Regionals if I remember correctly.