So by following that logic,

Don't fly the falcon as there might be lists out there with too many dice?

Don't fly Phantoms when PS 10s are abound?

Don't fly X when Y.

etc.

That is tunnel-vision right there good Sir.

What the stresshog does is it shuts ANY ship down, without effort as it deals not one, but two stress per turn.

You don't even need to hit with your attack. you just need to have your target in arc (which is easy to do).

It also breaks another core rule which is one attack per ship. Albeit they will be unmodified attacks.

Wrong. What I am saying is don't pair Han with an overloaded Keyan Farlander but rather with something nimble that offsets his weak spots. You know, actually build a smart list!

And when your "smart lists", and anyone else's, gets eaten alive by :

http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel%20Alliance&d=v4!s!9:135,-1,-1,69:21:-1:;65:-1:-1:-1:;65:-1:-1:-1:;64:-1:-1:-1:;64:-1:-1:-1:;64:-1:-1:-1:;64:-1:-1:-1:&sn=Unnamed%20Squadron

ad infinitum?

With 30 sec of thinking about it: Glittercrack brobots and Crackswarms will defeat that list 9/10 times without breaking a sweat. Many other lists will too, but it requires more thought than: point list at stresshog, blow it up before it shoots, laugh maniacally while poor 2 dice z-95s struggle with 3 green dice and getting stuff in arc for the rest of the game.

You could build similar lists using 4 ships, ala the one that won worlds, it is less forgiving, in exchange for an anti-ace & regenerating craft.

Take the hog out and the lists would crumble.

Keep it in and you have absolute control over the engagement for no downside.

I feel like my SC list would have had a good time against that one too... all those little noobie pilot skill numbers... Predator says "hello". You can stress me out all you like for the one turn that you're going to shoot (assuming they don't destroy it outright in the first round).

Then I'd just have to deal with all the other lists at the tournament...

Honestly, I'm having a hard time thinking of any top tier lists that would NOT walk all over that.

Honestly, I'm having a hard time thinking of any top tier lists that would NOT walk all over that.

That's the kicker, though. You spent 5, maybe 10 minutes thinking about how to beat it, and found ways. I guarantee that someone who has a bunch of success with that list, or any other weird list, has spent probably 20+ hours thinking about how top lists beat their lists, and then figures out how to counter those strategies, then figures out counters that those counters want to avoid. It can turn ugly for an unprepared player pretty quickly.

Honestly, I'm having a hard time thinking of any top tier lists that would NOT walk all over that.

I mean, any swarm list has to be taken at least somewhat seriously. But there are a couple of reasons that large, low-PS swarms aren't particularly popular right now:

• There are a number of aces that can run the table against them, even without support.
• Mid-PS Crackshot swarms are likely to kill multiple enemy ships before they can fire.
• Quad TLT can actually be very nasty to joust with.
• Coming up, there's the potential for Assault Missiles + Guidance Chips, which will absolutely tear apart swarms that can't PS-kill the ordnance carrier.

I certainly wouldn't run it.

Imperial players will not be happy until all possible counters to a 3 ace list are beefed into uselessness.

That is a bit silly, no, we'd be perfectly happy if the stresshog simply required skills to use/activate.

Its a ywing that can only fire forward. Dodge its arc. Or use Yorr.

First round I got the bye.

Second round I faced someone with a Phantom, Omega Leader, and Palp Shuttle. Killed the Phantom round 3-4 and then my opponent's Omega Leader ate two consecutive Proton Bombs from VI Boba.

3rd round I faced the 40 point Redline and 4 Crack Squadrons and just barely lost to it. It ended with Boba with a weapons failure on one health vs. a one health TIE that had already spent its Crackshot. It was close.

4th round I faced the quad TLT guy. Pulled out all the stops, checked his damage deck before the game, denied him a shot when he measured with one Y-Wing, measured with another, and then wanted to fire with the first one, and played it pretty well. But just not enough.

Placed 11th? I think. I had pretty good MoV but that loss against the redline squad was my downfall. Had I won that I wouldn't have been matched against the TLT player next round. Someone that doesn't own any of the game and is just handed one easymode power squadron each time the meta changes and is content playing nothing but that one squad isn't the kind of person that gets on tilt very easily. Also, not much value in getting a quad TLT player on tilt anyways, what are they gonna do, screw up a 3 hard turn and focus and perpetually rolling 3 dice at you?

Wow dude, I don't consider myself a casual player at all, I play in way more tournaments than i do "for fun" games and I care about winning alot and get alot of joy out of competition and I enjoy alot of success. But trying get people on tilt and being like umm no you measured over there so I'm gonna deny you shots is absolutely low. I have some good friends in Michigan who are great players and I get out there to play with them and I'm so glad you're not in that area. You must be an awfully sad mailman...

He's already playing a Playskool squadron, I'm not going to let him get away with premeasuring also. If you measure with one TLT Y-Wing, and then move onto a second one and attack with it, you missed your opportunity to fire with the first one. If he would have done it with all 4 I would have only allowed him to fire with the last one he measured from.

My opponent activated a ship by measuring range, then he activated another by measuring range and attacking with it. The first ship's time to fire was missed and I do not have to consent to allowing a missed opportunity, players are expected to play optimally.

He's already won a Store Championship with it.

Another player did this to me and was playing 40 point Redline and 4 Crack Squadrons. I just told him he couldn't do it and let him fire. Because he has good taste.

Also yes, I am an awfully sad mail man.

If all 4 of his tlts are the same ps he can measure with all four to each of your ships before firing any without losing the opportunity. That's in the rules. He should have called the TO. Glad he still won.

If all 4 of his tlts are the same ps he can measure with all four to each of your ships before firing any without losing the opportunity. That's in the rules. He should have called the TO. Glad he still won.

hmm, not actually sure if this is true, do you have a source for it?

The way the rules read it sounds like you activate each ship one at a time (typically in PS order) if you have the same PS, then you can choose what order you would like to activate ships. Checking range is part of 1. Declaring a Target. As far as I can tell it was well within the rules to require the owner of a ship to check each ships range as its activated.

If all 4 of his tlts are the same ps he can measure with all four to each of your ships before firing any without losing the opportunity. That's in the rules. He should have called the TO. Glad he still won.

Unless they changed the rule in the new Core Set Rulebook and I'm not aware of it, that is incorrect. You can only measure range and arc to targets with the currently active ship in the firing phase, and you can't cycle back and forth between active ships.

You choose one ship, measure arcs / range, and fire.

Then you repeat with the next ship, etc etc.

When players measure all of their ships first I politely tell them they can't do that, especially if they are newer (or just uninformed) and don't know the rules. I have never disallowed a player to take a shot if they measure with multiples, but I WILL prevent a player from changing his active ship and measuring with a 2nd if he has already measured with the first. On the rare occasion I myself will realize that I wanted to shoot in a different order after I have measured but before rolling (i.e. shooting with TLT before primaries to strip shields), so if it's obvious that the 2nd ship has arc/range I will ask if this is OK, but I'll never demand it, and always say its fine if they want to hold me to the original attack. The overwhelming majority of my games are Fly Casual (on both ends), so for something minor like this it's not a big deal. I personally couldn't see myself disallowing an attack altogether unless that player had already acted in a win-at-all-costs, bending-the-rules manner already, in which case I wouldn't feel bad at all playing hardball.

If all 4 of his tlts are the same ps he can measure with all four to each of your ships before firing any without losing the opportunity. That's in the rules. He should have called the TO. Glad he still won.

hmm, not actually sure if this is true, do you have a source for it?

The way the rules read it sounds like you activate each ship one at a time (typically in PS order) if you have the same PS, then you can choose what order you would like to activate ships. Checking range is part of 1. Declaring a Target. As far as I can tell it was well within the rules to require the owner of a ship to check each ships range as its activated.

You're right. That's rough. Eyeball until you're sure of where you want to start or lose an opportunity.

COMBAT PHASE

During the Combat phase, each ship has an opportunity

to perform one attack, starting with the ship with the

highest pilot skill and continuing in descending order.

•

If a player has multiple ships with the same pilot

skill value, he can attack with them in any order.

•

If both players have ships with the same pilot skill

value, the player with initiative attacks with all of

his ships of that pilot skill first.

•

Each ship becomes the active ship only once

during this phase.

•

A ship may choose not to attack

ATTACK

A ship can perform one attack when it becomes the

active ship during the Combat phase. To perform an

attack, the ship resolves the following steps in order:

1.

Declare Target:

The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then

the attacker chooses one of his weapons to

attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to

be the target and pays any costs required for the

attack.

•

If attacking with a primary weapon, the target

must be inside the attacker’s firing arc and at

Range 1–3.

•

If attacking with a turret primary weapon, the

target must be at Range 1–3 but does not need

to be inside firing arc.

•

If attacking with a secondary weapon, the target

must be inside the attacker’s firing arc (unless

otherwise specified) and at the weapon range

indicated on the weapon’s Upgrade card.

•

If there is no valid target for the chosen weapon,

or if the attacker cannot pay any costs required

for the attack, the attacker may choose a

different weapon and target.

•

After a valid weapon and target are chosen

and any indicated costs are paid, the target is

considered to be the defender.

Edited to add this from the FAQ:

Measuring range

Players may only measure range and/or use the range ruler to determine

whether a ship is inside or outside of a firing arc at the following times:

•

When a ship becomes the active ship during the combat phase, the active

player can measure range from the active ship to any enemy ships before

declaring one as its target.

•

When a player declares a ship’s ability that requires another ship (or ships)

to be at a certain range, the player trying to resolve the ability can measure

range from their ship to any valid ships before resolving the ability.

•

after declaring the intended target of a target lock action, the active player

may measure range to the intended target, and only to the intended target.

Imperial players will not be happy until all possible counters to a 3 ace list are beefed into uselessness.

That is a bit silly, no, we'd be perfectly happy if the stresshog simply required skills to use/activate.

Its a ywing that can only fire forward. Dodge its arc. Or use Yorr.

You missed a few posts further up-thread it looks like.

If it was so good as you claim, it would have started to show up before now.

It did, before Worlds, at Worlds, and still is.

I do not "claim" that it is good, I claim that it is in dire need of balancing.

Granted, the main topic here is TLTs, plural, not the Stresshog itself.

That seems fairly contradictory. If it is in dire need of balancing, we would be seeing it a LOT more.

If it was so good as you claim, it would have started to show up before now.

It did, before Worlds, at Worlds, and still is.

I do not "claim" that it is good, I claim that it is in dire need of balancing.

Granted, the main topic here is TLTs, plural, not the Stresshog itself.

That seems fairly contradictory. If it is in dire need of balancing, we would be seeing it a LOT more.

*Insert arbitrary value here which would satisfy you*

"We" are, open thine eyes.

Imperial players will not be happy until all possible counters to a 3 ace list are beefed into uselessness.

That is a bit silly, no, we'd be perfectly happy if the stresshog simply required skills to use/activate.

Its a ywing that can only fire forward. Dodge its arc. Or use Yorr.

You missed a few posts further up-thread it looks like.

I agree, the idea that it is "easy" to dodge is baloney if your opponent knows what he is doing. All they have to do is keep their firing arc as wide as possible by going slow, something the Y-Wing is pretty good at. And you only have to be tagged once for an ace like Fel to be in big trouble.

I also love how the automatic solution to deal with it is to stay at range 1-2 of one of the least maneuverable ships in the game. Something tells me that's not going to work so well there brosef. I have 74 points of ships that would love your dodge-y ace to be forced to be exactly where I expect..

The reason the Hog is powerful is because it forces you to play differently to avoid it. It doesn't have to ever shoot to have a major impact on the game. That said, I have had very little issue tagging what I want with it personally.

I am not trying to downplay Palp Aces or whatever, just saying that the idea that it is a trivial thing to dodge a Stresshog is ridiculous. If it were, then I can't imagine how Paul used it in the Finals of Worlds 2015....

I am not trying to downplay Palp Aces or whatever, just saying that the idea that it is a trivial thing to dodge a Stresshog is ridiculous. If it were, then I can't imagine how Paul used it in the Finals of Worlds 2015....

Even if you dodge the stressbot every round (it's debatable how easy/hard it actually is), while it's alive it still creates a rather huge 'don't go there' area on the map. That alone is worth the price IMO.

It really depends. In my last game against a Stresshog, I sent my Omegas in first, while holding Omega Leader back. Then, once I had Omega Leader's TL on his primary target, he didn't bother trying to avoid the Stresshog. Took one round of double stress on Omega Leader before my Omegas were able to kill the Y-wing. There will be some ships that say, okay, I can take some stress.

Honestly, if the stress hog is dealing direct stress to you as a player, play a swarm, it doesn't care about one ship out of 7 being stressed. Play Guri with wired, you still get focus at range 1 when stressed. Play a bomb swarm, can still drop bombs when stressed. If you have severe trouble beating a single, 25 point ship, and can think of no flying strategy against it, then adapt a list that works with your playing style to defeat it, one that doesn't dodge.

If you're going against Paul Heaver and he's flying it? You better believe it'll be flown to the best of its ability, so you better know how to pilot your ship to the best of it's ability.

I am not trying to downplay Palp Aces or whatever, just saying that the idea that it is a trivial thing to dodge a Stresshog is ridiculous. If it were, then I can't imagine how Paul used it in the Finals of Worlds 2015....

Even if you dodge the stressbot every round (it's debatable how easy/hard it actually is), while it's alive it still creates a rather huge 'don't go there' area on the map. That alone is worth the price IMO.

That's a part some players have trouble to get. And it goes about Tactician too.

''But I didn't even used it once during the game, it's useless!''

Maybe you didn't used it once, but believe me it forced your opponent to play differently than how he would have if you didn't have it, just to avoid it. Zone control and forcing action is a very important part of this game.

I am not trying to downplay Palp Aces or whatever, just saying that the idea that it is a trivial thing to dodge a Stresshog is ridiculous. If it were, then I can't imagine how Paul used it in the Finals of Worlds 2015....

Even if you dodge the stressbot every round (it's debatable how easy/hard it actually is), while it's alive it still creates a rather huge 'don't go there' area on the map. That alone is worth the price IMO.

That's a part some players have trouble to get. And it goes about Tactician too.

''But I didn't even used it once during the game, it's useless!''

Maybe you didn't used it once, but believe me it forced your opponent to play differently than how he would have if you didn't have it, just to avoid it. Zone control and forcing action is a very important part of this game.

Again, depends on the player and what they are flying. I can tell you, Defenders laugh in the face of Tactician.

I am not trying to downplay Palp Aces or whatever, just saying that the idea that it is a trivial thing to dodge a Stresshog is ridiculous. If it were, then I can't imagine how Paul used it in the Finals of Worlds 2015....

Even if you dodge the stressbot every round (it's debatable how easy/hard it actually is), while it's alive it still creates a rather huge 'don't go there' area on the map. That alone is worth the price IMO.

That's a part some players have trouble to get. And it goes about Tactician too.

''But I didn't even used it once during the game, it's useless!''

Maybe you didn't used it once, but believe me it forced your opponent to play differently than how he would have if you didn't have it, just to avoid it. Zone control and forcing action is a very important part of this game.

Again, depends on the player and what they are flying. I can tell you, Defenders laugh in the face of Tactician.

Of course there is exceptions, like B-Wings, but in a tournament you won't always face exceptions. But even if they don't care as much as others about stressed, it will still hurt them: I prefer to shoot at a token less Defender than one with a Focus, tactician is not just there to prevent the use of a red maneuver next turn. Or in my current build, I have tactician with Gunner on one ship and Sensor Jammer on the other. As long as you are stressed and do nothing about it, my Sensor Jammer ship feel much safer. You might not care about getting stressed or not, but I do since it either force you in a green or it directly helps me soaking damage or pushing damage through.

But what I meant is that it's not because you don't get to use it directly, giving a stress to a ship, that it was useless. There is also indirect effect to some upgrades that you should be aware of before dropping it.

Again, depends on the player and the ship. With things like Juke, Predator, and FCS, you would be surprised how many ships can handle a turn or two without actions. It's why I am dismissive of the opinion that you know where a ship will go when stressed. You can do white maneuvers when stressed, and that seems to surprise many.

Paul heaver has won 3 worlds all with different lists, he out flew his opponents.

You're ignoring the fact that he also took the best rebel ships in the game, 3 years in a row. He also made Final Table at Imperial Assault playing 4x4, which was then nerfed. Paul at Worlds is a powergamer: he plays the best possible list. This in combination with his table skills is why he is 3x World Champion. His repeat success is as much an indicator that the list matters as much as skill matters.

2 of those 3 lists had regen in them. This thread is so garbage along with many of the arguments in it. Can we turn our attention to the real enemy? Although, after chimps drops, regen and tlt spam may be much easier to deal with.

I don't agree that the thread is garbage. As much as having to face quad TLT is annoying, it's still better than the alternative of facing literally nothing but fat Turretwing. However, it is concerning how obnoxious quad TLT is. It's not really so much that it's so powerful, it's that it's so ruthlessly powerful and I requires zero skill as you do it to the point where people that don't even know that TIE Interceptors have green hard 2's can win Store Championships with it.

Sometimes there is a heavy feeling of, "I tried my best and outplayed my opponent, but my opponent won because turrets".

I am crossing my fingers that Chips/LRS Homing Missiles/Concussions Z's will put an end to quad TLT. Once people realize that you can almost autokill an entire Decimator with 4 chip concussions/HM's, the meta is going to change. If the first engagement with a quad TLT begins with 2-3 Gammas simply LRS deleting a Y-Wing and a half before it can even fire with a bunch of Homing Missiles, most of the quad TLT'ers will stop.

This is a dice game. Sometimes you are going to lose and there is little you could do about it. If you have a bad attitude about losing this game then go play chess. I get upset when I lose but its because I made mistakes, not because something out of my control. Everyone seems to say they outplayed their opponent.

There are so many arguments I disagree with in this thread I don't even know where to begin. Perhaps only my experience has been different.

I do not deny that tlt's are strong, but is it the most potent thing in this game? Is it the most obnoxious part of this game? My answer is no on both counts.

The problem is that this game isn't primarily a dice game, dice don't normally determine games all that often actually. Flying well and preserving action economy generally mitigate the effects of luck.

But that's all turrets and TLT turn the game into is dice. Always do a 3 speed, always focus, always have a shot on something. When your opponent is about to close to range 1 behind your ships, do a K-Turn and blow him away with your primaries.

Against arc based ships you can dodge arcs and make them lose arc on you by forcing them to swerve out of the way to miss asteroids. You can't do that against quad TLT.

So one player has to actually put thought into the game, and the quad tilter can just "lol 3 hard turn" and dice his way to victory. In fact, the newer you are at the game, the better you are at quad TLT because you'll fly unpredictably.

Im sorry your 2 ship 15 health non autothrusters list cant beat quad tlt. But why would you expect it to? You complain about boostwing and when you run into your brand of boostwing counter its not you, its turrets.

Pick a side man.

Lord I hope stressbot doesnt change. I dont use it, but how many legit counters to aces do we have? And you guys want to eliminate one? Even if you build an all aces list it can only take out 1 at a time.

Please build balanced lists guys.

*ignore this post because I dont travel to worlds and I didnt make the cut at this years store championship. I only beat both of last years area store champions and a 2nd place finisher from a popular 2015 one. I'm worthless data.

Again, depends on the player and the ship. With things like Juke, Predator, and FCS, you would be surprised how many ships can handle a turn or two without actions. It's why I am dismissive of the opinion that you know where a ship will go when stressed. You can do white maneuvers when stressed, and that seems to surprise many.

Okay, you don't seem to get what I meant and I don't have the time to explain, so we'll just leave it at that.

Again, depends on the player and the ship. With things like Juke, Predator, and FCS, you would be surprised how many ships can handle a turn or two without actions. It's why I am dismissive of the opinion that you know where a ship will go when stressed. You can do white maneuvers when stressed, and that seems to surprise many.

I'm flying Palpatine Aces lately, and it's astonished me how many people fail to consider the honey badger shuttle, especially when it's stressed. I caught someone with a nasty block once because I did a 3-straight across an asteroid: he was so focused on my stress token that he completely forgot I could just shrug and drive straight into the space he'd planned on using for K-turns.

Again, depends on the player and the ship. With things like Juke, Predator, and FCS, you would be surprised how many ships can handle a turn or two without actions. It's why I am dismissive of the opinion that you know where a ship will go when stressed. You can do white maneuvers when stressed, and that seems to surprise many.

I'm flying Palpatine Aces lately, and it's astonished me how many people fail to consider the honey badger shuttle, especially when it's stressed. I caught someone with a nasty block once because I did a 3-straight across an asteroid: he was so focused on my stress token that he completely forgot I could just shrug and drive straight into the space he'd planned on using for K-turns.

I don't see how that has anything to do with what we were talking about at all. Your opponent misjudged because you had a stress and that has something to do with the impact of stress/loss of actions on a ship somehow?

Sithborg: I think you are downplaying the impact being double stressed has on many, many of the big Aces right now.

Corran Horn: Cannot have defensive tokens or Boost/Barrel Roll

Soontir Fel: Can't do anything.

Darth Vader: Can't do anything.

Poe Dameron: Cannot do anything. In some builds, cannot regen.

Whisper: Cannot re-cloak in the subsequent or have defensive tokens without her ability.

Dash/Super Dash: Cannot do anything

Miranda: Cannot do anything.

Jake Farrell: Cannot do anything.

Etc.

Most of these aces cannot Arc Dodge/Defend themselves when they are loaded with stress. That is the point. These guys typically end up killed in those situations.

It is also worth noting that a vast majority of them cannot easily attack better than their generic counterparts in this situation either. And how many generic E-Wings/INTs/Tie Advanceds/etc./etc. have you seen lately?

Sure, many of them CAN arc dodge a single Y-Wing if they choose to, but a clever opponent will setup a scenario where if you do you get blasted by their Ace/rest of their list. If you allow yourself to be tagged, those same guys will pounce on you next round while you are somewhat helpless. If you keep the stress, you only extend the amount of time that it affects you.

I don;t know about you, but I don't like it when I spend 30+ points on a ship and then have sections of the board denied to me and/or have my ship unable to be effective attacking and at the mercy of the dice defending.