Store Championship tourneys.

Have two problems.

If you try to use them as data points.

First, the skill level of people involved.

Are wildly uneven.

Second, local metas vary from.

Store to store.

Using Worlds as a data point.

Means that you have.

The best players in the world.

By definition.

With the lists they spend weeks.

Or months finding.

The best possible combination.

Of ships to field.

Trying to say that your local.

Meta equals the entire world.

And ignoring the underlying math.

Which shows this to be.

A problem is just foolish.

I thought that maybe some folks would pay more attention if it were broken up into small, bite-sized pieces for their eyes to absorb.

World results are also to take lightly.

Because like it has been said before.

There is a lot of constraints that can.

Prevent some of the best players from going there.

Like time, money and distance.

I know a player that once beaten Paul Heaver.

And other big name players, on Vassal.

But he couldn't go to Worlds.

And I'm sure he's far from being the only one.

So to think that Worlds include all the best players.

and equals the entire world.

Is also foolish.

God, just butchering grammar.

Store Championship tourneys.

Have two problems.

If you try to use them as data points.

First, the skill level of people involved.

Are wildly uneven.

Second, local metas vary from.

Store to store.

Using Worlds as a data point.

Means that you have.

The best players in the world.

By definition.

With the lists they spend weeks.

Or months finding.

The best possible combination.

Of ships to field.

Trying to say that your local.

Meta equals the entire world.

And ignoring the underlying math.

Which shows this to be.

A problem is just foolish.

World results are also to take lightly.

Because like it has been said before.

There is a lot of constraints that can.

Prevent some of the best players from going there.

Like time, money and distance.

I know a player that once beaten Paul Heaver.

And other big name players, on Vassal.

But he couldn't go to Worlds.

And I'm sure he's far from being the only one.

So to think that Worlds include all the best players.

and equals the entire world.

Is also foolish.

Your haikus are great

mine just stinks

I am jealous now.

The only tournaments that are guaranteed to have the best talent are those only open to the winners of other high profile tournaments with free travel provided... so the one in the UK will be the first ever to actually fit the category. Any that are open to all and/or are cost prohibitive are subject to the same turnout as at a local store championship - that being some excellent players and some of lesser skill.

The only tournaments that are guaranteed to have the best talent are those only open to the winners of other high profile tournaments with free travel provided... so the one in the UK will be the first ever to actually fit the category. Any that are open to all and/or are cost prohibitive are subject to the same turnout as at a local store championship - that being some excellent players and some of lesser skill.

The system open series is something I can't wait to see how it goes. But it would have been nice if there would have been 1 or 2 more tournaments in America. It seems more to be an European thing.

Regardless, that Coruscant Invitational should be interesting to watch.

Store Championship tourneys.

Have two problems.

If you try to use them as data points.

First, the skill level of people involved.

Are wildly uneven.

Second, local metas vary from.

Store to store.

Using Worlds as a data point.

Means that you have.

The best players in the world.

By definition.

With the lists they spend weeks.

Or months finding.

The best possible combination.

Of ships to field.

Trying to say that your local.

Meta equals the entire world.

And ignoring the underlying math.

Which shows this to be.

A problem is just foolish.

World results are also to take lightly.

Because like it has been said before.

There is a lot of constraints that can.

Prevent some of the best players from going there.

Like time, money and distance.

I know a player that once beaten Paul Heaver.

And other big name players, on Vassal.

But he couldn't go to Worlds.

And I'm sure he's far from being the only one.

So to think that Worlds include all the best players.

and equals the entire world.

Is also foolish.

Your haikus are great

mine just stinks

I am jealous now.

And THAT, gentle sirs, is how you troll

The only tournaments that are guaranteed to have the best talent are those only open to the winners of other high profile tournaments with free travel provided... so the one in the UK will be the first ever to actually fit the category. Any that are open to all and/or are cost prohibitive are subject to the same turnout as at a local store championship - that being some excellent players and some of lesser skill.

Even the system open isn't perfect in that regard. There's only 8 tournaments to qualify for it, which means plenty of people won't be close enough to one to get to it without expensive travel. Even in the US, for instance, only having 1 tournamnet means it's out of reach for a large portion of the country without paying to fly there. Not to mention places like Australia that didn't get one at all and are nowhere close to any of them. It's at least a big improvement (in regards to getting the best players to the UK for the invitational) compared to Worlds where it's just whoever manages to sign up in time.

Gramer and speling rools maak no sense aniwae. If yu understand this sentense then yu noe that, and famus riters ignor the ruls al the taim.

That said, I didn't think I'd start a bloody trend of sentence fragmenting.

Local store championships are valid data points to see how the broad population is moving (and remember, that too shows a strong movement towards TLTs!), but powergamers and dedicated tourney-goers move towards broken game pieces like a pig to slops.

I have no idea why you guys dismiss using the top 32 of Worlds as a valid data point in determining what is the strongest in the game. When testing game balance, you HAVE to move to the most extreme points available. That's why the 4x4 combo was so broken in Imperial Assault, because the playtesters didn't think that way. "You'd have to buy four copies to have it, who'd DO that?"

Or as I like to bring up occasionally:

And as I said, the TLT is just BARELY on the verge of being unbalanced. We'll have to see if Wave 8 makes any significant changes.

Although there's an argument that Store Championships are lower quality data points, they are a lot of data points, which makes them significant en mass compared to the single data point per year of Worlds.

LOL, you guys are cute. Thinking vassal as "real x-wing"

quad TLT really shouldn't be an issue. I had pre-chips redline rolling around with 4 crack squads just blowing through PS 2 before it could ever hope to get a shot off

you need chips to get through lucky bull, like Poe rolling ridiculously good greens

between that and Glaive Squadrons threatening to run right through both TLTs and Crackswarm with their x7 sexiness, I doubt anyone will be complaining about them for long

quad TLT really shouldn't be an issue. I had pre-chips redline rolling around with 4 crack squads just blowing through PS 2 before it could ever hope to get a shot off

you need chips to get through lucky bull, like Poe rolling ridiculously good greens

between that and Glaive Squadrons threatening to run right through both TLTs and Crackswarm with their x7 sexiness, I doubt anyone will be complaining about them for long

That's the truth. X7s are going to be rough.

Paul heaver has won 3 worlds all with different lists, he out flew his opponents.

You're ignoring the fact that he also took the best rebel ships in the game, 3 years in a row. He also made Final Table at Imperial Assault playing 4x4, which was then nerfed. Paul at Worlds is a powergamer: he plays the best possible list. This in combination with his table skills is why he is 3x World Champion. His repeat success is as much an indicator that the list matters as much as skill matters.

2 of those 3 lists had regen in them. This thread is so garbage along with many of the arguments in it. Can we turn our attention to the real enemy? Although, after chimps drops, regen and tlt spam may be much easier to deal with.

I don't agree that the thread is garbage. As much as having to face quad TLT is annoying, it's still better than the alternative of facing literally nothing but fat Turretwing. However, it is concerning how obnoxious quad TLT is. It's not really so much that it's so powerful, it's that it's so ruthlessly powerful and I requires zero skill as you do it to the point where people that don't even know that TIE Interceptors have green hard 2's can win Store Championships with it.

Sometimes there is a heavy feeling of, "I tried my best and outplayed my opponent, but my opponent won because turrets".

I am crossing my fingers that Chips/LRS Homing Missiles/Concussions Z's will put an end to quad TLT. Once people realize that you can almost autokill an entire Decimator with 4 chip concussions/HM's, the meta is going to change. If the first engagement with a quad TLT begins with 2-3 Gammas simply LRS deleting a Y-Wing and a half before it can even fire with a bunch of Homing Missiles, most of the quad TLT'ers will stop.

This is a dice game. Sometimes you are going to lose and there is little you could do about it. If you have a bad attitude about losing this game then go play chess. I get upset when I lose but its because I made mistakes, not because something out of my control. Everyone seems to say they outplayed their opponent.

There are so many arguments I disagree with in this thread I don't even know where to begin. Perhaps only my experience has been different.

I do not deny that tlt's are strong, but is it the most potent thing in this game? Is it the most obnoxious part of this game? My answer is no on both counts.

quad TLT really shouldn't be an issue. I had pre-chips redline rolling around with 4 crack squads just blowing through PS 2 before it could ever hope to get a shot off

you need chips to get through lucky bull, like Poe rolling ridiculously good greens

between that and Glaive Squadrons threatening to run right through both TLTs and Crackswarm with their x7 sexiness, I doubt anyone will be complaining about them for long

That's the truth. X7s are going to be rough.

The Reign of Vessery begins...

Although there's an argument that Store Championships are lower quality data points, they are a lot of data points, which makes them significant en mass compared to the single data point per year of Worlds.

Well, we also see similar comments this year to what we saw last year about store championships, including at least one post calling last year's "the most diverse meta ever." Of course, that was followed up by a regional season that featured so many two ship builds and lists that favored point fortressing it led to the big ship rule change.

I actually love store championship level for that reason, though. That's the level that most people play at 99% of the time anyway, so it's important that the game is diverse at that level. I also think it also shows that skill is still the #1 factor in this game. Regional/National/World's data does definitely show the stronger squads as that level of competition narrows, even if they can't include all the best players from everywhere.

I do not deny that tlt's are strong, but is it the most potent thing in this game? Is it the most obnoxious part of this game? My answer is no on both counts.

They aren't the strongest, nor the most obnoxious (Rebel regen wins the "obnoxious" category hands down). But they have a disproportionate impact on list-building, and, as such, draw a lot of hate.

That's the truth. X7s are going to be rough.

The x7 title will finally give the Imperials another shielded ship that is as tough as an average Rebel one. Probably tougher, actually. They are irritatingly hard to kill, fun to fly, and always deadly. Hopefully they are here in time to have a meta impact before Regionals.

X7s will definitely be strong, no doubt. But, let's not discount /Ds...

Paul heaver has won 3 worlds all with different lists, he out flew his opponents.

You're ignoring the fact that he also took the best rebel ships in the game, 3 years in a row. He also made Final Table at Imperial Assault playing 4x4, which was then nerfed. Paul at Worlds is a powergamer: he plays the best possible list. This in combination with his table skills is why he is 3x World Champion. His repeat success is as much an indicator that the list matters as much as skill matters.

2 of those 3 lists had regen in them. This thread is so garbage along with many of the arguments in it. Can we turn our attention to the real enemy? Although, after chimps drops, regen and tlt spam may be much easier to deal with.

I don't agree that the thread is garbage. As much as having to face quad TLT is annoying, it's still better than the alternative of facing literally nothing but fat Turretwing. However, it is concerning how obnoxious quad TLT is. It's not really so much that it's so powerful, it's that it's so ruthlessly powerful and I requires zero skill as you do it to the point where people that don't even know that TIE Interceptors have green hard 2's can win Store Championships with it.

Sometimes there is a heavy feeling of, "I tried my best and outplayed my opponent, but my opponent won because turrets".

I am crossing my fingers that Chips/LRS Homing Missiles/Concussions Z's will put an end to quad TLT. Once people realize that you can almost autokill an entire Decimator with 4 chip concussions/HM's, the meta is going to change. If the first engagement with a quad TLT begins with 2-3 Gammas simply LRS deleting a Y-Wing and a half before it can even fire with a bunch of Homing Missiles, most of the quad TLT'ers will stop.

This is a dice game. Sometimes you are going to lose and there is little you could do about it. If you have a bad attitude about losing this game then go play chess. I get upset when I lose but its because I made mistakes, not because something out of my control. Everyone seems to say they outplayed their opponent.

There are so many arguments I disagree with in this thread I don't even know where to begin. Perhaps only my experience has been different.

I do not deny that tlt's are strong, but is it the most potent thing in this game? Is it the most obnoxious part of this game? My answer is no on both counts.

The problem is that this game isn't primarily a dice game, dice don't normally determine games all that often actually. Flying well and preserving action economy generally mitigate the effects of luck.

But that's all turrets and TLT turn the game into is dice. Always do a 3 speed, always focus, always have a shot on something. When your opponent is about to close to range 1 behind your ships, do a K-Turn and blow him away with your primaries.

Against arc based ships you can dodge arcs and make them lose arc on you by forcing them to swerve out of the way to miss asteroids. You can't do that against quad TLT.

So one player has to actually put thought into the game, and the quad tilter can just "lol 3 hard turn" and dice his way to victory. In fact, the newer you are at the game, the better you are at quad TLT because you'll fly unpredictably.

X7s will definitely be strong, no doubt. But, let's not discount /Ds...

TIE/Ds are going to be great, no doubt, but will be relatively more susceptible to massed ordnance because they cost more and are less tough than the x7s. I think massed ordnance will be a thing like TLTs now. Not insurmountable, but **** tough if you're not prepared.

X7s will definitely be strong, no doubt. But, let's not discount /Ds...

the D is for discount

unless the empire doesn't like keeping things PG

but yeah, Tie/D t-beams could be murder. Small problem is that their defenses suck (good ole naked greens, more often than not), so they're pretty much glass cannons.

X7s will definitely be strong, no doubt. But, let's not discount /Ds...

TIE/Ds are going to be great, no doubt, but will be relatively more susceptible to massed ordnance because they cost more and are less tough than the x7s. I think massed ordnance will be a thing like TLTs now. Not insurmountable, but **** tough if you're not prepared.

I almost think TIE/D might be BETTER against ordnance than x7. All you get from x7 is -2 points and a single evade token. That's not going to go very far against massed ordnance. It may or may not save you to make it take 1 extra shot to kill you. TIE/D on the other hand has higher potential damage output, and, if you have tractor beams, the potential to move someone to where they either put someone on a rock so they can't shoot or move them to where they don't have arc on the person they have TLed.

TIE/Ds are going to be great, no doubt, but will be relatively more susceptible to massed ordnance because they cost more and are less tough than the x7s. I think massed ordnance will be a thing like TLTs now. Not insurmountable, but **** tough if you're not prepared.

I certainly hope massed ordnance is a thing. I want it to be so badly.

I view missiles and torps as a toolbox. You have a lot of options you can take to deal with a variety of threats. Homing Missile (aces), Assault Missile (swarm), Concussion Missile (high agility ships), etc. Mixing the right ordnance and firing it at the right time at the right target should be just as important a skill as positioning your ship to do so.

what? no clusters?

**** thing will 2 round poe/miranda with so little issue, it almost brings a tear to my eye

X7s will definitely be strong, no doubt. But, let's not discount /Ds...

TIE/Ds are going to be great, no doubt, but will be relatively more susceptible to massed ordnance because they cost more and are less tough than the x7s. I think massed ordnance will be a thing like TLTs now. Not insurmountable, but **** tough if you're not prepared.

I almost think TIE/D might be BETTER against ordnance than x7. All you get from x7 is -2 points and a single evade token. That's not going to go very far against massed ordnance. It may or may not save you to make it take 1 extra shot to kill you. TIE/D on the other hand has higher potential damage output, and, if you have tractor beams, the potential to move someone to where they either put someone on a rock so they can't shoot or move them to where they don't have arc on the person they have TLed.

Tractors won't work on a Jumpmaster, and that will be one of the nastier delivery platforms.

X7s will definitely be strong, no doubt. But, let's not discount /Ds...

TIE/Ds are going to be great, no doubt, but will be relatively more susceptible to massed ordnance because they cost more and are less tough than the x7s. I think massed ordnance will be a thing like TLTs now. Not insurmountable, but **** tough if you're not prepared.

I almost think TIE/D might be BETTER against ordnance than x7. All you get from x7 is -2 points and a single evade token. That's not going to go very far against massed ordnance. It may or may not save you to make it take 1 extra shot to kill you. TIE/D on the other hand has higher potential damage output, and, if you have tractor beams, the potential to move someone to where they either put someone on a rock so they can't shoot or move them to where they don't have arc on the person they have TLed.

Tractors won't work on a Jumpmaster, and that will be one of the nastier delivery platforms.

That much is definitely true. Though it will at least still drop their agility for your other ships to hit them easier/do more damage if you're using a tractor beam. On the other hand, jumpmasters mean you don't have as many individual missiles to fire at a time compared to something like a blount/Z-swarm.

quad TLT really shouldn't be an issue. I had pre-chips redline rolling around with 4 crack squads just blowing through PS 2 before it could ever hope to get a shot off

you need chips to get through lucky bull, like Poe rolling ridiculously good greens

between that and Glaive Squadrons threatening to run right through both TLTs and Crackswarm with their x7 sexiness, I doubt anyone will be complaining about them for long

I lost to that squad in Round 2 this past weekend. Was that you, or is that yet another popular netlist?

if you have tractor beams, the potential to move someone to where they either put someone on a rock so they can't shoot or move them to where they don't have arc on the person they have TLed.

Or, depending on what they have, you can just push/pull them into the wrong range so they can't fire with their ordnance, even if that means pulling them in close. Then you can make the fight about K-Turns, and that is squarely on the Defender's turf.

quad TLT really shouldn't be an issue. I had pre-chips redline rolling around with 4 crack squads just blowing through PS 2 before it could ever hope to get a shot off

you need chips to get through lucky bull, like Poe rolling ridiculously good greens

between that and Glaive Squadrons threatening to run right through both TLTs and Crackswarm with their x7 sexiness, I doubt anyone will be complaining about them for long

I lost to that squad in Round 2 this past weekend. Was that you, or is that yet another popular netlist?

if you have tractor beams, the potential to move someone to where they either put someone on a rock so they can't shoot or move them to where they don't have arc on the person they have TLed.

Or, depending on what they have, you can just push/pull them into the wrong range so they can't fire with their ordnance, even if that means pulling them in close. Then you can make the fight about K-Turns, and that is squarely on the Defender's turf.

Question: Do you play in SE Michigan? Someone with a 40 point Redline and 4x Crack Squadron did pretty well at a Sunday Store Championship at Gamer's Gauntlet.