Basically all I'm seeing is the (by far) most dominant ships simply not dominating anymore. Brobots, fat turrets +esp with corran) were all too common a sight before TLTs and much needed mov changes

And even then you see whispermaders taking some SC wins on paplie's back

The only real loss is the Bwing. It was the standard prior to TLTs but TLTs can actually hit arc dodgers

You are forgetting that most of the time, this game is won and lost in the movement phase.

This used to be true. I wish it still were.

All three were around at both of the last two tournaments I attended. That could easily be a feature of my local metagame, of course, but if you're asking for anecdotes...

It was largely rhetorical, given that all 3 are significantly down year-over-year. Some attrition is expected as new ships enter the game, obviously. Decimators and YT's have dropped over 60%; most of that decline has occurred since the release of Wave 7.

Again, if that was the intent of the card, then bravo. Well done. Mission accomplished. My problem is with the unintended side effects of TLT, which I consider to be far worse than the original problem they were seemingly meant to "solve".

Paul heaver has won 3 worlds all with different lists, he out flew his opponents.

You're ignoring the fact that he also took the best rebel ships in the game, 3 years in a row. He also made Final Table at Imperial Assault playing 4x4, which was then nerfed. Paul at Worlds is a powergamer: he plays the best possible list. This in combination with his table skills is why he is 3x World Champion. His repeat success is as much an indicator that the list matters as much as skill matters.

All three were around at both of the last two tournaments I attended. That could easily be a feature of my local metagame, of course, but if you're asking for anecdotes...

It was largely rhetorical, given that all 3 are significantly down year-over-year. Some attrition is expected as new ships enter the game, obviously. Decimators and YT's have dropped over 60%; most of that decline has occurred since the release of Wave 7.

Again, if that was the intent of the card, then bravo. Well done. Mission accomplished. My problem is with the unintended side effects of TLT, which I consider to be far worse than the original problem they were seemingly meant to "solve".

Oh, I agree. It's hard to look at the drop in all three of those ships (B-wing, VT-49, YT-1300) and not blame TLT at least a little bit.

But you asked a rhetorical question, and I could honestly answer the opposite of what you expected. And according to Internet Law, I'm pretty sure that meant I had to do it.

No. There is no need (imo). It has it's cointers and can be very easily nuked if you play smart.

Ive seen plenty of different ships in the local tournament scenes, in fact I've experienced no tlt spam. The max was 2 in one list. 2 k wings to be exact. And they drop like flies.

It seems to me, all the people complaining are the ones and only vs 4 scum y's and nothing else.

Paul heaver has won 3 worlds all with different lists, he out flew his opponents.

You're ignoring the fact that he also took the best rebel ships in the game, 3 years in a row. He also made Final Table at Imperial Assault playing 4x4, which was then nerfed. Paul at Worlds is a powergamer: he plays the best possible list. This in combination with his table skills is why he is 3x World Champion. His repeat success is as much an indicator that the list matters as much as skill matters.

2 of those 3 lists had regen in them. This thread is so garbage along with many of the arguments in it. Can we turn our attention to the real enemy? Although, after chimps drops, regen and tlt spam may be much easier to deal with.

Paul heaver has won 3 worlds all with different lists, he out flew his opponents.

You're ignoring the fact that he also took the best rebel ships in the game, 3 years in a row. He also made Final Table at Imperial Assault playing 4x4, which was then nerfed. Paul at Worlds is a powergamer: he plays the best possible list. This in combination with his table skills is why he is 3x World Champion. His repeat success is as much an indicator that the list matters as much as skill matters.

In the finals I've watched, he out flew his opponents. Period. Yes, used the best squad he could field. But, having watched those three Worlds finals, he out flew his opponents for the win.

Paul heaver has won 3 worlds all with different lists, he out flew his opponents.

You're ignoring the fact that he also took the best rebel ships in the game, 3 years in a row. He also made Final Table at Imperial Assault playing 4x4, which was then nerfed. Paul at Worlds is a powergamer: he plays the best possible list. This in combination with his table skills is why he is 3x World Champion. His repeat success is as much an indicator that the list matters as much as skill matters.

In the finals I've watched, he out flew his opponents. Period. Yes, used the best squad he could field. But, having watched those three Worlds finals, he out flew his opponents for the win.

get back to us when he plays Imperials in Worlds

Why does it matter?

Paul heaver has won 3 worlds all with different lists, he out flew his opponents.

You're ignoring the fact that he also took the best rebel ships in the game, 3 years in a row. He also made Final Table at Imperial Assault playing 4x4, which was then nerfed. Paul at Worlds is a powergamer: he plays the best possible list. This in combination with his table skills is why he is 3x World Champion. His repeat success is as much an indicator that the list matters as much as skill matters.

In the finals I've watched, he out flew his opponents. Period. Yes, used the best squad he could field. But, having watched those three Worlds finals, he out flew his opponents for the win.

get back to us when he plays Imperials in Worlds

get back to me when You win worlds!

All three were around at both of the last two tournaments I attended. That could easily be a feature of my local metagame, of course, but if you're asking for anecdotes...

It was largely rhetorical, given that all 3 are significantly down year-over-year. Some attrition is expected as new ships enter the game, obviously. Decimators and YT's have dropped over 60%; most of that decline has occurred since the release of Wave 7.

Again, if that was the intent of the card, then bravo. Well done. Mission accomplished. My problem is with the unintended side effects of TLT, which I consider to be far worse than the original problem they were seemingly meant to "solve".

Oh, I agree. It's hard to look at the drop in all three of those ships (B-wing, VT-49, YT-1300) and not blame TLT at least a little bit.

But you asked a rhetorical question, and I could honestly answer the opposite of what you expected. And according to Internet Law, I'm pretty sure that meant I had to do it.

And I also feel the urge to do it too.

Here's the result of the SC I went 3 weeks ago. http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=1128

A Decimator won the tournament, there is 2 BBBBZ list in the Top 4 (I'm the odd scum list in 4th with a YV, a ship with even less survivability than a Decimator against TLTs) and there was actually 2 4TLT list in the tournament.

Like I said earlier, TLT is not as bad as some people make it sound. And to say that they can ignore positioning and just easily cruise around the board shooting at everything until it dies, you are forgetting that:

1- It has a blind spot in range 1, exploit it and it won't be able to shoot at you!

2- It's a Y-Wing! Not the fastest nor maneuvrable ship and it has no way to reposition, so it's not as if it was hard to get into that blind spot.

still don't see what TLT is choking out, relative to the state of the game prior to wave 7

When was the last time you saw a B-Wing in play? A Decimator? A YT-1300?

TLT didn't push out B wings Fel, Autothrusters and all the arc dogging lists did that. If all I had to worry about was TLT I would take 3 Daggers with FCS + HLC and drop a Y wing a turn easy. I don't remember if I even saw all that many B wing before TLT now that I think about it

Decimators were never that good the only reason they did so well is because while everyone was chewing through all those hit points while Fel or Whisper went unharassed picking away at your opponents fleet

I still see YT-1300. In fact a Chewe Dash combo won a SC a few weeks ago. I and a few others I know have stoped flying them because we want to try other things. The rule change in MOV for large ships would have also put a lot of people off those ships as well

still don't see what TLT is choking out, relative to the state of the game prior to wave 7

When was the last time you saw a B-Wing in play? A Decimator? A YT-1300?

TLT didn't push out B wings Fel, Autothrusters and all the arc dogging lists did that. If all I had to worry about was TLT I would take 3 Daggers with FCS + HLC and drop a Y wing a turn easy. I don't remember if I even saw all that many B wing before TLT now that I think about it

The b wing was the most taken rebel ship at the north american championships, might have been most taken ship overall, i haven't seen the total data, but it was not among the top 5 on the rebel side.

Store Championship tourneys.

Have two problems.

If you try to use them as data points.

First, the skill level of people involved.

Are wildly uneven.

Second, local metas vary from.

Store to store.

Using Worlds as a data point.

Means that you have.

The best players in the world.

By definition.

With the lists they spend weeks.

Or months finding.

The best possible combination.

Of ships to field.

Trying to say that your local.

Meta equals the entire world.

And ignoring the underlying math.

Which shows this to be.

A problem is just foolish.

I thought that maybe some folks would pay more attention if it were broken up into small, bite-sized pieces for their eyes to absorb.

"Pardon him, Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature." ~ George Benard Shaw, Ceaser and Cleopatra

And THAT, gentle sirs, is how you troll, not like the failtroll from last page. My actual opinion is not aggressively against the TLT. It can be beaten without a great deal of list modification, the things which are good against it are also good against other things, and while it has definitely driven some archetypes out of the meta they were already on their way out from other things.

What worries me is the complete lack of variety in Scum lists at Worlds. That tells me not so much that Y-Wings and Brobots are so good, but that the other options are that bad.

I remember reading somewhere that there's some legal or licensing reason FFG can't print and sell a pack of cards - just cards - for errata purposes, but can distribute cards as part of the minis, but I can't for the life of me find the source now.

All three were around at both of the last two tournaments I attended. That could easily be a feature of my local metagame, of course, but if you're asking for anecdotes...

It was largely rhetorical, given that all 3 are significantly down year-over-year. Some attrition is expected as new ships enter the game, obviously. Decimators and YT's have dropped over 60%; most of that decline has occurred since the release of Wave 7.

Again, if that was the intent of the card, then bravo. Well done. Mission accomplished. My problem is with the unintended side effects of TLT, which I consider to be far worse than the original problem they were seemingly meant to "solve".

Oh, I agree. It's hard to look at the drop in all three of those ships (B-wing, VT-49, YT-1300) and not blame TLT at least a little bit.

But you asked a rhetorical question, and I could honestly answer the opposite of what you expected. And according to Internet Law, I'm pretty sure that meant I had to do it.

And I also feel the urge to do it too.

Here's the result of the SC I went 3 weeks ago. http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=1128

A Decimator won the tournament, there is 2 BBBBZ list in the Top 4 (I'm the odd scum list in 4th with a YV, a ship with even less survivability than a Decimator against TLTs) and there was actually 2 4TLT list in the tournament.

Like I said earlier, TLT is not as bad as some people make it sound. And to say that they can ignore positioning and just easily cruise around the board shooting at everything until it dies, you are forgetting that:

1- It has a blind spot in range 1, exploit it and it won't be able to shoot at you!

2- It's a Y-Wing! Not the fastest nor maneuvrable ship and it has no way to reposition, so it's not as if it was hard to get into that blind spot.

I love you!....

The ones whinging about TLT are the ones losing....

Your opponents should start whinging that TLT wasnt strong enough to beat your YV-666

Using Worlds as a data point.

Means that you have.

The best players in the world.

You have *some* of the best players in the world, you don't have all of them.

Worlds is probably one of the most restrictive tournaments for any player to try and enter due to ticket availability, airfare, costs, lost productivity from work, etc.

You will also have some players attend Worlds, who are not that skillful, but who are fortunate enough to manage the costs (both time and money) to attend.

Anyone living very close to the venue would nearly be able to treat Worlds as a glorified Store Championship. Most other people don't have that luxury.

Store Champs Tournaments are so numerous, they allow all of the 'best' players a chance to compete *somewhere*.

Worlds does not offer the same equivalent opportunity.

I know some very good X-Wing players who will never be able to play at Worlds.

Even playing at Nationals is a massive drain on their resources.

And those 'store championship' local players would only get to the top 32 with sheer stupid luck, and would more likely than not wipe out early on. MJ's data was specifically FROM the top 32 - so the best players whose lists have been proven through 6 rounds already. The other 224 players? Uhh, nope, not included.

Though there was data a few pages back which collated the most-used upgrade cards from Store Championships, and (no surprise!) it was TLT at 10%+, or one out of ten upgrades taken.

Think about how many upgrade cards there are, and how many perfectly viable non-unique ones there are too - Crackshot, Veteran Instincts, Autothrusters, Gunner, Engine Upgrade, Push the Limit - and how many fringe 'for fun' builds included in that dataset there were, and how many unique cards are auto-includes in so many lists - Emperor Palpatine! R2-D2! - and yet TLT was 10%? Kind of a big number there.

But it's still early days for worrying. If it's still this dominant this time next year, with another Wave or two and two or three Veteran boxes, THEN I'll raise noises about rebalancing it. As it is, it's broken, but just barely.

Store champs and regular store tournaments IMO is the best data to look at for the "health" of the game all other formats are to restrictive due to the reasons listed above and a lot of the players who go to regionals go to mutable. So doesn't that stack the data with the same list and people making it hard to work out if there in a meta or not?

Also worlds is now a world away and will be even further away once those boats show up with new toys to play with.

Paul heaver has won 3 worlds all with different lists, he out flew his opponents.

You're ignoring the fact that he also took the best rebel ships in the game, 3 years in a row. He also made Final Table at Imperial Assault playing 4x4, which was then nerfed. Paul at Worlds is a powergamer: he plays the best possible list. This in combination with his table skills is why he is 3x World Champion. His repeat success is as much an indicator that the list matters as much as skill matters.

In the finals I've watched, he out flew his opponents. Period. Yes, used the best squad he could field. But, having watched those three Worlds finals, he out flew his opponents for the win.

Paul Heaven is without doubt an excellent player. He does however stack the deck as far as he can in his favor through squad building. There is a recent Podcast where he explains some of the reasons behind his squad and he selected Poe using a 'what's good against TLT' spreadsheet. So Paul Heaver believes in math

Yes, one's skill matters a lot, probably also because at the very top everyone can do the math (at least to some extent), but not to the point that 'I took a crappy squad and won a major tournament with it' is a common occurrence.

still don't see what TLT is choking out, relative to the state of the game prior to wave 7

When was the last time you saw a B-Wing in play? A Decimator? A YT-1300?

TLT didn't push out B wings Fel, Autothrusters and all the arc dogging lists did that. If all I had to worry about was TLT I would take 3 Daggers with FCS + HLC and drop a Y wing a turn easy. I don't remember if I even saw all that many B wing before TLT now that I think about it

The b wing was the most taken rebel ship at the north american championships, might have been most taken ship overall, i haven't seen the total data, but it was not among the top 5 on the rebel side.

Just had a look at the data on List Juggler and from what I saw B Wing were best represented between wave 6 and the raider and went down hill from there but looks to be steady at just over 9% of rebel ships

The thing that killed the B-Wing probably was the stricter ruling on time limits in my opinion. 4BZ was pretty much the only build left that ran B-Wings and that mostly because it had the tendency to kill more points than it would lose in a short time. 4BZ being purely B-Wings really skewed those numbers.

Store Championship tourneys.

Have two problems.

If you try to use them as data points.

First, the skill level of people involved.

Are wildly uneven.

Second, local metas vary from.

Store to store.

Using Worlds as a data point.

Means that you have.

The best players in the world.

By definition.

With the lists they spend weeks.

Or months finding.

The best possible combination.

Of ships to field.

Trying to say that your local.

Meta equals the entire world.

And ignoring the underlying math.

Which shows this to be.

A problem is just foolish.

I thought that maybe some folks would pay more attention if it were broken up into small, bite-sized pieces for their eyes to absorb.

"Pardon him, Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature." ~ George Benard Shaw, Ceaser and Cleopatra

And THAT, gentle sirs, is how you troll, not like the failtroll from last page. My actual opinion is not aggressively against the TLT. It can be beaten without a great deal of list modification, the things which are good against it are also good against other things, and while it has definitely driven some archetypes out of the meta they were already on their way out from other things.

What worries me is the complete lack of variety in Scum lists at Worlds. That tells me not so much that Y-Wings and Brobots are so good, but that the other options are that bad.

I remember reading somewhere that there's some legal or licensing reason FFG can't print and sell a pack of cards - just cards - for errata purposes, but can distribute cards as part of the minis, but I can't for the life of me find the source now.

That's fantastic if your goal is to build a time machine and play in Worlds 2015. However, if your goal is to actually measure a ship's actual effectiveness, that data is riddled with confounds as pointed out throughout this thread.

You also want to remove metabating from the equation as much as possible and Worlds is king of metabating.

Math is only good to a certain point. It falls apart when you try to represent abstract concepts or when you don't understand the possible confounds. That's why: Statwing > Mathwing

Paul heaver has won 3 worlds all with different lists, he out flew his opponents.

You're ignoring the fact that he also took the best rebel ships in the game, 3 years in a row. He also made Final Table at Imperial Assault playing 4x4, which was then nerfed. Paul at Worlds is a powergamer: he plays the best possible list. This in combination with his table skills is why he is 3x World Champion. His repeat success is as much an indicator that the list matters as much as skill matters.

2 of those 3 lists had regen in them. This thread is so garbage along with many of the arguments in it. Can we turn our attention to the real enemy? Although, after chimps drops, regen and tlt spam may be much easier to deal with.

Sometimes there is a heavy feeling of, "I tried my best and outplayed my opponent, but my opponent won because turrets".

I am crossing my fingers that Chips/LRS Homing Missiles/Concussions Z's will put an end to quad TLT. Once people realize that you can almost autokill an entire Decimator with 4 chip concussions/HM's, the meta is going to change. If the first engagement with a quad TLT begins with 2-3 Gammas simply LRS deleting a Y-Wing and a half before it can even fire with a bunch of Homing Missiles, most of the quad TLT'ers will stop.